2013 Hybrid MPG Results

[Fynack]

https://www.change.org/petitions/ford-motor-company-buy-back-2013-ford-fusion-hybrids-and-cmax-hybrids

 

If you like your car and the mileage it gets then I'm happy for you. But if I buy any product as a consumer and it states X but I don't get anywhere near X then I have been ripped off. This may just be my style but if I buy an iPod that can hold 100 songs but it only actually holds 75 then I would want my money back and not buy another iPod again. By giving companies a pass or its still decent mpgs or I didn't get it for the mpg ( why did you get the

Hybrid then????) it just allows companies to deceive and push inferior products. When they marketed 47/47/47 their actuaries were at work determining how many people would complain and how many would

Just say "oh well" and I guess the numbers came in favor of pushing junk numbers because most people won't do a thing about it.

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents

[acdii]

$183,000

 

Rodney Dangerfield said it all, No Respect.

[DeeCee]

Yeah, the mileage bashing and so forth is getting a little wearing for me-- it's one of the things keeping me away from these forums lately. You have here a car that gets really good MPG as compared to any other car in its class and offers you far more for your money in terms of features, options, and just plain fun and drivability than any of those other hybrids. And you get all of it at a very compelling price point.

 

When I first started shopping for this car, I looked at the commensurate models online-- the Camry, the Accord, the Hyundai, etc. and I just didn't see anything that came close for what I would be paying, even assuming the gas mileage in all of those hybrids was dead equal. So what if it *only* gets a mile or so better MPG than any of those other cars? The thing still offers way more for less money! I see people saying they're going to sell theirs because it doesn't live up to the numbers and buy something that gets even lower MPG. How is that even a little bit smart?

 

With that said, I know there are a few exceptions out there who are really having trouble getting even Camry-style mileage out of thier Fusions. Those people probably have a problem car and I feel really bad for them and wish Ford would step up to the plate and make it right. No way am I discounting your problems if you are in that boat. But lots of us are really happy with this car, and I'd really like to hear more from those who are.

Agree completely. Love this car and can get 40+ mpg without any extreme hypermiling techniques, just normal driving for me.

[elle]

https://www.change.org/petitions/ford-motor-company-buy-back-2013-ford-fusion-hybrids-and-cmax-hybrids If you like your car and the mileage it gets then I'm happy for you. But if I buy any product as a consumer and it states X but I don't get anywhere near X then I have been ripped off. This may just be my style but if I buy an iPod that can hold 100 songs but it only actually holds 75 then I would want my money back and not buy another iPod again. By giving companies a pass or its still decent mpgs or I didn't get it for the mpg ( why did you get the Hybrid then????) it just allows companies to deceive and push inferior products. When they marketed 47/47/47 their actuaries were at work determining how many people would complain and how many would Just say "oh well" and I guess the numbers came in favor of pushing junk numbers because most people won't do a thing about it. Just my 2 cents

 

Well, I may be cynical, but I think that expecting inscrutable honesty from a major corporation is expecting a little bit much. I didn't get EPA rated mileage from my Prius, either, not even close. The differences are about the same. It's not just Ford.

 

As far as gaming the system goes, there are different perspectives here. The EPA test is supposed to represent real world conditions. If you accept that, then trying to get the car to do well on the test seems a reasonable thing to do, unless everyone agrees that the test is just bogus. And if the test is bogus, what's the point of the ratings system to begin with?

Edited February 21, 2013 by elle

[GrySql]

Well, I may be cynical, but I think that expecting inscrutable honesty from a major corporation is expecting a little bit much. I didn't get EPA rated mileage from my Prius, either, not even close. The differences are about the same. It's not just Ford.

 

As far as gaming the system goes, there are different perspectives here. The EPA test is supposed to represent real world conditions. If you accept that, then trying to get the car to do well on the test seems a reasonable thing to do, unless everyone agrees that the test is just bogus. And if the test is bogus, what's the point of the ratings system to begin with?

elle--> +1

$183,000? - How you waste your money is your choice, but spending a ludicrous amount of money in pursuit of economy seems a strange way to achieve it.

Publicly griping about it doesn't show much financial sense either if you are desiring respect.

[elle]

And another thing... there's been a disclaimer on EPA ratings for so long it's become part of the popular lexicon as a catch phrase. That's right, "your mileage may vary." That means exactly what it says. Mileage has never been presented as being guaranteed by those numbers and tests, and probably shouldn't be viewed that way, since it's pretty clearly stated that it's *not* a guarantee.

 

Personally I suspect that the EPA test, in general, just doesn't measure hybrid performance very well. Hybrid engines are a lot newer than the EPA test methods.

 

If anything, what we probably ought to be spending our energy on is a demand for a better test so we can have more accuracy on the hybrid side moving forward.

Edited February 21, 2013 by elle

[hybridbear]

Yeah, the mileage bashing and so forth is getting a little wearing for me-- it's one of the things keeping me away from these forums lately. You have here a car that gets really good MPG as compared to any other car in its class and offers you far more for your money in terms of features, options, and just plain fun and drivability than any of those other hybrids. And you get all of it at a very compelling price point.

 

When I first started shopping for this car, I looked at the commensurate models online-- the Camry, the Accord, the Hyundai, etc. and I just didn't see anything that came close for what I would be paying, even assuming the gas mileage in all of those hybrids was dead equal. So what if it *only* gets a mile or so better MPG than any of those other cars? The thing still offers way more for less money! I see people saying they're going to sell theirs because it doesn't live up to the numbers and buy something that gets even lower MPG. How is that even a little bit smart?

 

With that said, I know there are a few exceptions out there who are really having trouble getting even Camry-style mileage out of thier Fusions. Those people probably have a problem car and I feel really bad for them and wish Ford would step up to the plate and make it right. No way am I discounting your problems if you are in that boat. But lots of us are really happy with this car, and I'd really like to hear more from those who are.

 

I agree! We're not getting 47 MPG right now in the winter, but I believe we will in the summer. In our old 2006 Honda Accord Hybrid we could beat the EPA estimates in the summer but in the winter our gas mileage was lower, same thing in my Saab 9-3 and Saab 9-5 before that.

 

I will say that the 47 MPG on the highway is not realistic. The highway MPG is where gas only cars beat their EPA ratings the most. This is because the EPA highway test involves lots of speeding up and slowing down which is less efficient than a constant cruising speed for a gas only car. For the hybrid, the EPA highway test is a lot like doing pulse & glide. That is why the Fusion/C-Max don't do as well cruising at a constant highway speed in comparison with gas only or diesel cars that can beat their EPA highway numbers.

 

I agree completely. We really like our FFH. Drove the rest and bought the best.

 

It is the best, even if it doesn't get 47 MPG

 

OK here's one, with today's activity:

 

Morning commute (60 miles) - 44.0 (was cold but not really cold, maybe 30 degrees, 44 MPG is OK)

Went out to a drive-thru for lunch (8 miles R/T) - 32.4 (what a POS, can't believe Ford would game things like this, I hate you Ford you big bunch of liars)

Afternoon commute (60 miles) - 50.8 (that's more like normal)

 

So why such disparity in the MPG between 32 and 44 / 50? Think, McFly... think.

 

This illustrates the other great point with a hybrid. In a conventional car you probably would not see that much disparity between trips, but the hybrid is affected by other factors, such as the SOC of the battery when beginning a trip.

 

I do not yet own my car, so everything I say is based on what I have read, both on these forums and other reviews.

 

From your statements, it sounds like you are giving Ford a pass, even if they knew they were gaming the system and their customers were not going to get anywhere near the car's rating.

 

I can achieve and beat my Camry's ratings just about any day I want to. I don't always do it, because sometimes the hybrid games get old, but it's there to achieve (fairly easily).

 

If the same is not true for the new Ford Fusion, then people have a legitimate gripe, and shame on Ford.

 

I also disagree with the statement that we all knew this from the start. While there are many repeat hybrid buyers on these forums, the average joe does not participate on online forums and only has the EPA ratings to go by.

 

I see MPGs all over the place, so I will have to wait until mine comes in to have a more solid opinion. But the jury is still out on the new Fusion. I do not believe the EPA has reached a conclusion yet.

 

I doubt that the EPA is going to find any wrongdoing on Ford's part. What should be done is to change the test cycles because they are not realistic.

 

I didn't post that video to cause more debate than what we already have here. I just thought it was interested in how MT "defined" the results.

 

From what I have been reading as well (should be getting my car this Saturday) is that 47MPG is possible, but you will have to have the perfect conditions to get it. I'm used to getting about 23-28MPG in my Mazda3, so if I can get 40MPG on average I will be fairly happy with the cars MPG. However, MPG was not the reason I bought this car. It was only one of many reasons!

 

We're getting 40 MPG on average when the temperature has not been above 25 degrees all but a few days the past few months. If MPGs drop 2 MPG for every 10 degree temperature drop then at 60 degrees we should average about 8 MPG better, or 47-50 MPGs. That will be great.

 

https://www.change.org/petitions/ford-motor-company-buy-back-2013-ford-fusion-hybrids-and-cmax-hybrids If you like your car and the mileage it gets then I'm happy for you. But if I buy any product as a consumer and it states X but I don't get anywhere near X then I have been ripped off. This may just be my style but if I buy an iPod that can hold 100 songs but it only actually holds 75 then I would want my money back and not buy another iPod again. By giving companies a pass or its still decent mpgs or I didn't get it for the mpg ( why did you get the Hybrid then????) it just allows companies to deceive and push inferior products. When they marketed 47/47/47 their actuaries were at work determining how many people would complain and how many would Just say "oh well" and I guess the numbers came in favor of pushing junk numbers because most people won't do a thing about it. Just my 2 cents

 

You weren't told you will get 47 MPG, we were all told that the EPA rating is 47/47/47. When Apple says that an iPod can hold 100 songs that is also an estimate and they have a disclaimer at the bottom of those ads. They might say 100 songs because it could hold 100 songs @ 3 minutes per song because that's an accepted industry average, but if your particular music library averages 3.5 minutes per song then that same iPod will not hold 100 songs for you.

 

The EPA tests say that this particular vehicle will get 47/47/47 at 65 degrees and following a very specific acceleration and braking pattern. That doesn't guarantee that your driving pattern will match what they tested, or that you will always be driving at 65 degrees with no radio and no HVAC use.

 

Agree completely. Love this car and can get 40+ mpg without any extreme hypermiling techniques, just normal driving for me.

 

 

Well, I may be cynical, but I think that expecting inscrutable honesty from a major corporation is expecting a little bit much. I didn't get EPA rated mileage from my Prius, either, not even close. The differences are about the same. It's not just Ford.

 

As far as gaming the system goes, there are different perspectives here. The EPA test is supposed to represent real world conditions. If you accept that, then trying to get the car to do well on the test seems a reasonable thing to do, unless everyone agrees that the test is just bogus. And if the test is bogus, what's the point of the ratings system to begin with?

 

Excellent point. Ford did what anyone would do. Think of it this way too...parents push their kids to get good grades in school. This leads many kids to do what it takes to get good grades to please their parents. Having a high GPA in school though does not mean that the child is really intelligent or that they learned a lot. It just means they learned what they needed to do to get good grades.

 

I don't think that way so I never got straight A's in school. I chose instead to do what it took to learn the most from each class because I felt that the knowledge was more valuable than an A. We can think of the cars the same way. Ford designed the car to get an "A" on the EPA tests because that's what most consumers want and are looking at. That doesn't mean that the real world MPGs (the knowledge acquired) is at its maximum, it just means that Ford did what most people want, a high EPA rating.

 

And another thing... there's been a disclaimer on EPA ratings for so long it's become part of the popular lexicon as a catch phrase. That's right, "your mileage may vary." That means exactly what it says. Mileage has never been presented as being guaranteed by those numbers and tests, and probably shouldn't be viewed that way, since it's pretty clearly stated that it's *not* a guarantee.

 

Personally I suspect that the EPA test, in general, just doesn't measure hybrid performance very well. Hybrid engines are a lot newer than the EPA test methods.

 

If anything, what we probably ought to be spending our energy on is a demand for a better test so we can have more accuracy on the hybrid side moving forward.

 

Absolutely, the EPA test cycle does not work for hybrids, it doesn't work for the new Prius either as Toyota has raised the MPH threshhold for EV operation. That is why the Fusion/C-Max score so well on the EPA tests, they can go into EV mode up to 62 MPH. If their EV threshhold was only 41 like in the Toyotas, it would be a different story. But since the EPA tests do not accurately simulate real world driving for many people, a better use of our energy would be calling for the EPA to come up with new tests instead of bashing Ford.

[Fynack]

Last night i drove the Lexus es300h, cold start ,drove about 15 miles, 10 on the highway , 5 on the city. My average was 38.5. Their EPA Estimates were 39 hw 40 City 40 Combined. Yes your "mileage may vary" and it didnt meet EPA estimates but it was with in reasonable distance from it. If you think 47/47/47 and getting 37 is reasonable then you are fool and i have a bridge i want to sell you. I dont know how many of you are Ford Employees or just real people but you dont have to hear the grip about MPG yet you still come on these threads and defend Ford...why is that??? Coming with the same things the dealership and Ford constantly states...Mileage will vary, it hasnt broken in, its too cold, its because you dont know how to drive it yet. The gripping will end soon as Ford buys back my vehicle and I get my new es300h.

[Fynack]

And another thing... there's been a disclaimer on EPA ratings for so long it's become part of the popular lexicon as a catch phrase. That's right, "your mileage may vary." That means exactly what it says. Mileage has never been presented as being guaranteed by those numbers and tests, and probably shouldn't be viewed that way, since it's pretty clearly stated that it's *not* a guarantee.

 

Personally I suspect that the EPA test, in general, just doesn't measure hybrid performance very well. Hybrid engines are a lot newer than the EPA test methods.

 

If anything, what we probably ought to be spending our energy on is a demand for a better test so we can have more accuracy on the hybrid side moving forward.

Your probably right but why would a company knowing this still advertise the 47/47/47 number. Ford talking to the EPA about changing the test proves they knew it was flawed. They should have never reported those numbers and instead gave it something like 40/40/40. 40/40/40 is more reasonable since as an estimate some will get more and some will get less based on driving habit and conditions. But NO ONE is get 47 period. They took that risk to try to be the "prius slayer" and youll see the value of the model nose dive.

[neod192]

Last night i drove the Lexus es300h, cold start ,drove about 15 miles, 10 on the highway , 5 on the city. My average was 38.5. Their EPA Estimates were 39 hw 40 City 40 Combined. Yes your "mileage may vary" and it didnt meet EPA estimates but it was with in reasonable distance from it. If you think 47/47/47 and getting 37 is reasonable then you are fool and i have a bridge i want to sell you. I dont know how many of you are Ford Employees or just real people but you dont have to hear the grip about MPG yet you still come on these threads and defend Ford...why is that??? Coming with the same things the dealership and Ford constantly states...Mileage will vary, it hasnt broken in, its too cold, its because you dont know how to drive it yet. The gripping will end soon as Ford buys back my vehicle and I get my new es300h.

Sure, that's a nice car but it's also at least 15k more :)

 

They should have never reported those numbers and instead gave it something like 40/40/40.

Ford is legally required to post the EPA numbers on their stickers, so if the EPA test says 47/47/47 they can't put 40/40/40 on the sticker. Sure, they shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it through marketing, but they did. What company wouldn't brag about acing the EPA test?

Edited February 21, 2013 by neod192

[Fynack]

Sure, that's a nice car but it's also at least 15k more :)

 

Ford is legally required to post the EPA numbers on their stickers, so if the EPA test says 47/47/47 they can't put 40/40/40 on the sticker. Sure, they shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it through marketing, but they did. What company wouldn't brag about acing the EPA test?

I would have gladly paid 40k for the fusion hybrid if it did everything it stated

[Fynack]

Sure, that's a nice car but it's also at least 15k more :)

 

Ford is legally required to post the EPA numbers on their stickers, so if the EPA test says 47/47/47 they can't put 40/40/40 on the sticker. Sure, they shouldn't have made such a big deal out of it through marketing, but they did. What company wouldn't brag about acing the EPA test?

Just to help me understand what are the requirements for the EPA sticker? They could have easily throttled to 3k rpm to get real numbers. EPA estimates are there so people can compare one vehicle to another and it also provides annual fuel cost numbers. So if im comparing a Prius to a CMax.. mpg is better on the CMax , annual fuel cost numbers are better too. Yet the prius does better in MPG and annual fuel cost.

[Fynack]

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/12/why-do-fords-new-c-max-fusion-hybrids-ace-the-epa-government-fuel-economy-tests.html

[elle]

Your probably right but why would a company knowing this still advertise the 47/47/47 number.

 

It isn't "advertisement." They are required by law to run the EPA test and they are required by law to post the results. And even if they weren't, they are on the same playing field as all the others in the market. It would not make sense to come out and say "we don't have any confidence in this car so we're not going to tell you what the numbers were." All that would happen then is that the same people complaining now would be saying "Ford is HIDING something from us! The numbers must be so LOW that they don't want to publish them!"

[elle]

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/12/why-do-fords-new-c-max-fusion-hybrids-ace-the-epa-government-fuel-economy-tests.html

 

Yep. The test is flawed. I believe this to be the case.

[Fynack]

It isn't "advertisement." They are required by law to run the EPA test and they are required by law to post the results. And even if they weren't, they are on the same playing field as all the others in the market. It would not make sense to come out and say "we don't have any confidence in this car so we're not going to tell you what the numbers were." All that would happen then is that the same people complaining now would be saying "Ford is HIDING something from us! The numbers must be so LOW that they don't want to publish them!"

They are required by law to buy ad space and quote "an amazing 47/47/47"???

[Fynack]

There is no law that i can find that says they cant underestimate an epa test result

[elle]

There is no law that i can find that says they cant underestimate an epa test result

 

Really? Let's see your law degree. This is getting interesting :)

[Fynack]

It isn't "advertisement." They are required by law to run the EPA test and they are required by law to post the results. And even if they weren't, they are on the same playing field as all the others in the market. It would not make sense to come out and say "we don't have any confidence in this car so we're not going to tell you what the numbers were." All that would happen then is that the same people complaining now would be saying "Ford is HIDING something from us! The numbers must be so LOW that they don't want to publish them!"

Imagine this Ford runs the epa test and gets 47/47/47 and puts it on the sticker. But Ford decides to advertise 40/40/40 and tell customers this is most likely what youll get. People ask would ask why would you do this? They reply were just being honest with our customers and we dont want the headache or dealing that problem. We'd rather our customers be happy with what they buy. end of deal..happy customer...

[Fynack]

Really? Let's see your law degree. This is getting interesting :)

There is no law ""that i can find"" that says they cant underestimate an epa test result ... it was a question for someone to provide proof that you cant underestimate an epa result

[elle]

They are required by law to buy ad space and quote "an amazing 47/47/47"???

 

Oh, dear. So let's explain the difference between legal requirements and marketing.

 

1) Legal requirements: The law says they have to post the numbers, whatever they are.

 

2) Marketing: The marketing department sees the numbers and says "Wow! We should make a big deal out of this!"

 

Some marketing strategies are more ill-advised than others. In this case, I think Ford's enthusiasm for the numbers is backfiring as a strategy. A more savvy marketing tactic would have been to advertise all the great features of the car and then cutely downplay the EPA ratings with an asterisk or something like *oh, and the mileage isn't bad, either. Then wait to see what it does in the real world and adjust the strategy accordingly.

 

But I don't run Ford's marketing department so I wasn't there to give them advice before they rolled this all out. What I can tell you is this. No company takes something that looks good and buries it completely. That is marketing insanity.

[elle]

Really? Let's see your law degree. This is getting interesting :)

There is no law ""that i can find"" that says they cant underestimate an epa test result ... it was a question for someone to provide proof that you cant underestimate an epa result

 

 

No, it was a challenge because you are too lazy to do the legwork. If you dispute it, please provide an actual argument for this. Some of us are old enough to remember when there were no laws and no test. Do you really think there would be EPA testing at all if it were not required? Do you really not realize that EPA stands for "Environmental Protection Agency?" How old are you?

[Fynack]

Here's where I sit as of today, average of 45 mpg, and the last trip on the way home, the way there I think was 43mpg, maybe 44.

 

 

 

 

Can you show a shot of your lifetime average? thx :)

Edited February 21, 2013 by Fynack

[elle]

Dude, he has only 365 miles on the car. You do realize that an average is only as good as the amount of information it contains, right? Are you really suggesting that an average over 365 miles during the break in period is going to be representative of anything that's *more* accurate than the EPA test?

[Fynack]

Well, I may be cynical, but I think that expecting inscrutable honesty from a major corporation is expecting a little bit much. I didn't get EPA rated mileage from my Prius, either, not even close. The differences are about the same. It's not just Ford.

 

As far as gaming the system goes, there are different perspectives here. The EPA test is supposed to represent real world conditions. If you accept that, then trying to get the car to do well on the test seems a reasonable thing to do, unless everyone agrees that the test is just bogus. And if the test is bogus, what's the point of the ratings system to begin with?

""expecting inscrutable honesty from a major corporation is expecting a little bit much"" They get away with it because consumers let them and still buy their product. If your prius wasnt getting what you expected then I would have taken it to the dealer to have it checked out and have them explain whats going on. I personally (just me) here in 30degree Virginia hasnt seen a prius that didnt get between 48 and 49 mpg. To be exact I have checked and verified 9 different priuss either through coworker or friends. Thats not saying in getting a prius but prius overall numbers nationwide are close to their EPA estimate.