What do you think of the Chevy Volt?

[cchaos]

300 miles is a short trip for lots of people. Therefore you'll need another car for vacation travel.

 

No, you can just fill it up at any gas station and keep going. However, you'll be burning gas to power the electric engine instead of using pure electricity from the batteries.

 

That's why I'm wondering what the mpg rating is when using the gas generator. I've heard some reports that it may only be around 30 mpg, which would mean the Volt is less efficient than the FFH once the initial battery charge is used up. If you use your car primarily for commuting and can plug it in every night, the Volt would be more fuel efficient; otherwise, the FFH may be more fuel efficient.

Edited July 31, 2010 by cchaos

[rfruth]

I agree all subsidies should be done away with then people would flock to renew ables but gas/diesel fuel would cost lots more & we all know what our trucks / trains / tractors use - the upcoming EV Focus sounds good to me but like the Leaf the range is expected to be the same & a few times a month I go farther than 100 miles at a time so a plug in FFH might be just the ticket !

[lolder]

A plug-in version of an existing hybrid like the FFH is not a good engineering design. The Volt is better. The FFH ICE is too big and MG2 too small for an extended EV range hybrid. Same goes for the Prius. Toyota's engineers are probably against the management decision to build the 13 mile range plug-in Prius. The FFH and Prius are unique designs and they got it right. They are NOT electric cars. The Volt is much more so.

[sullied]

Ah! So, we've just got to power our entire electric grid with wind, solar, hydro, and nuclear power! Is that all? Serious question: how much money do we need to spend, and how long will it take, for us to achieve this "energy independence"? Can't answer that? Don't feel bad. Nobody can answer that question. Instead, politicians and (ahem... liberals) just want to spend gobs of money so they can feel good about "moving in the right direction."

 

Pie. In. The. Sky. Do you really believe that now, now that we are currently running $1.5 trillion annual deficits, now is the time to be "investing" in clean energy? Again, if this energy is so great, why can't it compete without government subsidies?

So...let's just do nothing then? That's your argument. Flawed. Screw it...let's just ruin the planet...can't do it all right now...so why bother ever doing anything at all?

 

Instead of making things happen, politicians and (ahem... conservatives) just wanna bicker about how it's useless to protect the environment.

 

As I've said before...not the place for this debate, so I won't post anything further.

[mirak]

So...let's just do nothing then? That's your argument. Flawed. Screw it...let's just ruin the planet...can't do it all right now...so why bother ever doing anything at all?

 

Instead of making things happen, politicians and (ahem... conservatives) just wanna bicker about how it's useless to protect the environment.

 

As I've said before...not the place for this debate, so I won't post anything further.

 

Well, hopefully you'll keep reading at least, and thank you for the last word.

 

Liberals always like to trot out this strawman argument when they've got nothing left: "Oh yeah? So I guess your answer is to do nothing!" Our president is a master of using this false choice as a rhetorical device.

 

I simply believe the government should not be investing my tax dollars in an attempt to manipulate the free market. You have no confidence in the free market (even though you probably own a flat screen TV, tiny cell phone, and many other amazingly inexpensive technological marvels developed without billions in federal subsidies). Energy technology can also develop without federal subsidies. Want to become the next billionaire? Develop a better battery. Getting rich is a powerful incentive.

 

And finally, I fully acknowledge that I have hijacked my own thread. Baiting liberals is just too fun to pass up. However, to the rest of the posters, thank you for your technical contributions. I am definitely learning a thing or two about series hybrids that I didn't know before. Very interesting.

[FFHdriver]

No, you can just fill it up at any gas station and keep going. However, you'll be burning gas to power the electric engine instead of using pure electricity from the batteries.

 

That's why I'm wondering what the mpg rating is when using the gas generator. I've heard some reports that it may only be around 30 mpg, which would mean the Volt is less efficient than the FFH once the initial battery charge is used up. If you use your car primarily for commuting and can plug it in every night, the Volt would be more fuel efficient; otherwise, the FFH may be more fuel efficient.

If I can only drive 40 miles on the battery and have to fill up every 300 miles I can think of a reason to have the battery. Just but a cheaper ICE car.

[mirak]

That's why I'm wondering what the mpg rating is when using the gas generator. I've heard some reports that it may only be around 30 mpg, which would mean the Volt is less efficient than the FFH once the initial battery charge is used up. If you use your car primarily for commuting and can plug it in every night, the Volt would be more fuel efficient; otherwise, the FFH may be more fuel efficient.

 

It's an interesting idea. I wonder if the EPA has even figured out how to do the MPG rating? I would assume that you have to rate the ICE usage only, somehow, but that might be easier said than done.

 

A plug-in version of an existing hybrid like the FFH is not a good engineering design. The Volt is better. The FFH ICE is too big and MG2 too small for an extended EV range hybrid. Same goes for the Prius. Toyota's engineers are probably against the management decision to build the 13 mile range plug-in Prius. The FFH and Prius are unique designs and they got it right. They are NOT electric cars. The Volt is much more so.

 

First, is your opinion based on the current battery technology? Would Li-Ion change your opinion, or is the FFH still too heavy to be an effective plug-in?

 

Second, I'm not suggesting that parallel hybrids should ever possess a 40-mile EV-only mode range like the Volt. Forget EV-only. I think a plug-in FFH or Prius with Li-Ion technology could dramatically increase overall mpg (though, again, you run into the problem of how, exactly, do you calculate mpg if you are drawing some of your power from watts instead of gallons?)

[lolder]

The cost and weight goes up with a plug-in. There's very little monetary savings in EV mode with a plug-in. The type of HVB (Lithium, etc.) in a full non-plug-in hybrid is unimportant and has little effect on mpg. The mpg of the present types of hybrids cannot be significantly improved except by lower weight or new engine technologies yet to be developed. The Prius weighs about 3100 lbs. empty and already is a light car for a 5 passenger accessory loaded hybrid. To carry a payload of 800 lbs. in a car weighing 2000 lbs. is difficult. Weight reductions can only be done with expensive technologies like carbon-fiber. ICE efficiencies are currently limited by the laws of thermodynamics and the maximum temperatures metal engines can be run at. Non-cooled Ceramic engines that run at 1500 degrees F. have not yet been successful. A radiator is lost efficiency and energy. Any commercial electrical power plant that uses fossil fuels has the same efficiency limitations plus the electrical transmission losses. I think 65% of the US electricity is generated by coal? Wind and solar power is intermittent and requires energy storage to match loads. Hydroelectric has limited availability. Nuclear has other problems. Non of this is going to be cheap! The Prius and FFH are affordable and being sold at a profit and double your economy. If the Volt is durable, it's subsidized $33 K is OK too. Enjoy them, buy them now, there is no magical next generation.

Edited August 1, 2010 by lolder

[VonoreTn]

So...let's just do nothing then? That's your argument. Flawed. Screw it...let's just ruin the planet...can't do it all right now...so why bother ever doing anything at all?

 

Instead of making things happen, politicians and (ahem... conservatives) just wanna bicker about how it's useless to protect the environment.

 

As I've said before...not the place for this debate, so I won't post anything further.

 

No hard feelings pal, we want liberals buying FFH's too, I'm not fussy about the political party of those supporting my Ford pension.... ;)

[mirak]

Update: Popular Mechanics has done road testing on the Volt. They found the EV-only range was only 30-35 miles. They also attempted to measure "MPG":

 

In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway.

 

I think PM was right to run two sets of numbers, which seems to be the only way for the EPA to make any meaningul comparison between the Volt's "MPG" and the traditional MPG of non-plugins. You've got to do a "non-plug-in MPG" where you fully deplete the battery prior to testing, and "plug-in MPG" where you fully charge the battery prior to testing.

 

As for the actual testing, PM did not use professional drivers, and they were pretty clearly not attempting any hyper-miling techniques, so these numbers are probably lower than what many of us could get. Still, at the end of the day, it doesn't appear that the Volt gets any better mileage (and perhaps worse) than the FFH once you go beyond the Volt's EV-only range.

 

That is a weak showing, if you care about MPG beyond the EV Range. If, on the other hand, you drive less than 30 miles/day for the vast majority of the time, you probably wouldn't care about MPG at all. But if that's the case, why not get a Nissan Leaf or similar, much cheaper EV-only vehicle, and keep another car around for those occasionally longer trips? The Volt just isn't practical.

[dogo88]

Update: Popular Mechanics has done road testing on the Volt. They found the EV-only range was only 30-35 miles. They also attempted to measure "MPG":

 

 

 

I think PM was right to run two sets of numbers, which seems to be the only way for the EPA to make any meaningul comparison between the Volt's "MPG" and the traditional MPG of non-plugins. You've got to do a "non-plug-in MPG" where you fully deplete the battery prior to testing, and "plug-in MPG" where you fully charge the battery prior to testing.

 

As for the actual testing, PM did not use professional drivers, and they were pretty clearly not attempting any hyper-miling techniques, so these numbers are probably lower than what many of us could get. Still, at the end of the day, it doesn't appear that the Volt gets any better mileage (and perhaps worse) than the FFH once you go beyond the Volt's EV-only range.

 

That is a weak showing, if you care about MPG beyond the EV Range. If, on the other hand, you drive less than 30 miles/day for the vast majority of the time, you probably wouldn't care about MPG at all. But if that's the case, why not get a Nissan Leaf or similar, much cheaper EV-only vehicle, and keep another car around for those occasionally longer trips? The Volt just isn't practical.

 

 

Depends on the application. My work is approx 15 miles each way. So the 30+ mile range between recharging is a good fit. But if I wanted to go to visit my son in Mass, a 5 hour drive, the Volt would do the trip fine. The Leaf would not.

 

Dan

[VonoreTn]

Update: Popular Mechanics has done road testing on the Volt. They found the EV-only range was only 30-35 miles. They also attempted to measure "MPG":

 

................................... The Volt just isn't practical.

 

Thanks Mirak. The Volt doesn't even match the Fusion Hybrid for FE, much less the Prius, after the first 40 miles. The GM's engineer's goal of 50 mpg after the first 40 miles was probably not realistic, for the reasons I stated on this topic last July. Despite the positive spin by GM, it doesn't sound like going up the hill to Loveland Pass with the engine roaring all the way was a pleasant experience either, and I'm sure some customers might have some issues with the underpowered situation on road trips through mountains.

 

My next prediction is that the government doctors the EPA fuel economy procedure such that the Volt looks like a clear winner to the majority of car buyers.

[xmech2k]

Well, you have to wonder. If you went say, 45 miles total commute each day, then that would be only 10-15 miles on fuel, the rest on battery. Stand by while I try to calculate that............

 

 

So worst case, 15 miles on the IC, lets say at 35 mpg to keep it simple, would be .43 gallons of gas. .43 gallons for a total commute of 45 miles is... 104 miles per gallon?

 

Simply put, if I calculated it right, we used .43 gallons for 45 miles of driving, before we plugged back in. (worst-case 30miles elec, 15 miles IC) 45 miles divided by .43 gallons is 104 mpg. Not bad... Am I doing that right? I think so. The example stated earlier assumes you use the battery up and burn through the rest of the tank, so you only get 36 mpg (hwy), but that's not how the car would normally be used.

 

I wish I had the money to pick up a Volt! :banghead:

[mirak]

Well, you have to wonder. If you went say, 45 miles total commute each day, then that would be only 10-15 miles on fuel, the rest on battery. Stand by while I try to calculate that............

 

 

So worst case, 15 miles on the IC, lets say at 35 mpg to keep it simple, would be .43 gallons of gas. .43 gallons for a total commute of 45 miles is... 104 miles per gallon?

 

Simply put, if I calculated it right, we used .43 gallons for 45 miles of driving, before we plugged back in. (worst-case 30miles elec, 15 miles IC) 45 miles divided by .43 gallons is 104 mpg. Not bad... Am I doing that right? I think so. The example stated earlier assumes you use the battery up and burn through the rest of the tank, so you only get 36 mpg (hwy), but that's not how the car would normally be used.

 

I wish I had the money to pick up a Volt! :banghead:

 

Right - if you can plug in regularly each night to fully recharge the battery after, say, 50 miles of total driving, your "MPG" would be excellent. But keep in mind, electricity isn't free, so you're not going to save that much money using electricity instead of gasoline, and (unlike a FFH or Prius) you will NEVER recoup in gas savings the ridiculous premium paid for this compact car (even after ridiculous tax credit).

 

I guess what really shocks me is that the Volt can't even match the FFH's MPG once the plug-in charge is gone. Why do you think that is? The Volt is smaller, but is it heavier because of the extra batteries? Or, is the series-hybrid less energy efficient than a parallel-hybrid system? Think about it.

 

I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the series-hybrid has to always perform 5 energy conversions, and there's a loss of energy with each:

1. Chemical energy (gasoline) to mechanical energy (the ICE)

2. Mechanical energy to electric energy

3. Electric energy to chemical energy (the battery)

4. Chemical energy to electric energy

5. Electric energy to mechanical energy (the motor)

 

Maybe the series-hybrid technology more than compensates for this because the ICE can run more efficiently at a constant RPM.

[xmech2k]

Yeah, you have to wonder what the electricity will cost, but I think it would be way cheaper than gas.

[xmech2k]

Argh! Won't let me edit my last post.

 

I just wanted to add, don't forget, peoples workplaces will slowly be adding charging stations so they can proclaim their 'green-ness'. So you may not have to use gas at all during a normal workday commute.

[lolder]

The Volt is just a little too expensive for what it does.

Edited October 12, 2010 by lolder

[Oman]

Oh, I can't resist any longer. Not a liberal post. Not a conservative post. But... factually... The government was HEAVILY involved in the development of RF, TV, and cellular communications. Both from a regulatory and economic subsidy point of view. There are plenty of good examples for your point but those aren't them. Being involved in RF communications for a long time I just couldn't stay out.

 

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

Jon

 

 

Well, hopefully you'll keep reading at least, and thank you for the last word.

 

Liberals always like to trot out this strawman argument when they've got nothing left: "Oh yeah? So I guess your answer is to do nothing!" Our president is a master of using this false choice as a rhetorical device.

 

I simply believe the government should not be investing my tax dollars in an attempt to manipulate the free market. You have no confidence in the free market (even though you probably own a flat screen TV, tiny cell phone, and many other amazingly inexpensive technological marvels developed without billions in federal subsidies). Energy technology can also develop without federal subsidies. Want to become the next billionaire? Develop a better battery. Getting rich is a powerful incentive.

 

And finally, I fully acknowledge that I have hijacked my own thread. Baiting liberals is just too fun to pass up. However, to the rest of the posters, thank you for your technical contributions. I am definitely learning a thing or two about series hybrids that I didn't know before. Very interesting.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Oman

[xmech2k]

Well, Oman, that flew right over my head. What????? Is it a shot at 'Government Motors'? I didn't think we were getting political in this hybrid discussion, for a change! (I didn't agree with all the big gusiness bailouts but what could I do? Just waiting for november... :waiting: ) And the government was heavily 'involved' in hybrid tech, and several American companies were ready to pull the covers off their hybrids years ago, when they decided to ease up on emmission standards and fuel economy and such, then just chucked all the development (And $$$ spent in development) out the window. Of course, Toyota started work on the Prius to catch up and wound up leading the pack. If the government wants to get helpfull and serious about a green future, they need to start motivating the nation into having natural gas and electric recharging stations as common as gas stations around the country. That stopped me early on when seriously considering a natural gas powered car.

 

Anyways, Lolder, on further consideration, and some calculations, I have to agree with you. While the concept is good, I just wouldn't be able to justify the expense. Same reason I didn't get a FFH, just went with a 4 cyl. For me, I couldn't justify the extra expenses and loss of trunk space. Unless gas prices skyrocket, you'd be lucky to recoupe the extra expense in the Volt. If you really want to save the planet and can afford to do it, then I guess it would be a good choice for some.

[rfruth]

When it comes to the future, there are three kinds of people: those who let it happen, those who make it happen, and those who wonder what happened - as for the volt great ! now Ford Toyota etc.. will have to respond (my money is on a plug-in Ford)

[drolds1]

now Ford Toyota etc.. will have to respond (my money is on a plug-in Ford)

 

Done. Ford will debut the electric Focus in about a year, to be followed by an electric Escape, Transit Connect and a few others.

[VonoreTn]

News flash, Mirak and others...somehow I missed this (thanks Joey), the Volt no longer just uses the ICE to charge the battery. It is now linked directly to the drive-train, just like the FFH. GM claims that they hid this information from the public and press due to patent concerns, but I suspect they realized about the same time we did that their charging only mode for ICE was just not going to cut it, and they fundamentally changed their design.

 

So now, after the first 40 miles, it faces off directly against the FFH, and it can't quite match the performance of the FFH, especially at lower speeds. Plus it is still a 4 seater versus a 5 seater, and still costs more.

 

This does kind of address some other issues, like wouldn't the FFH be more efficient with lithium batteries? Apparently the lithium batteries are not a big factor in the total strategy to get the highest FE.

 

My link

 

Right - if you can plug in regularly each night to fully recharge the battery after, say, 50 miles of total driving, your "MPG" would be excellent. But keep in mind, electricity isn't free, so you're not going to save that much money using electricity instead of gasoline, and (unlike a FFH or Prius) you will NEVER recoup in gas savings the ridiculous premium paid for this compact car (even after ridiculous tax credit).

 

I guess what really shocks me is that the Volt can't even match the FFH's MPG once the plug-in charge is gone. Why do you think that is? The Volt is smaller, but is it heavier because of the extra batteries? Or, is the series-hybrid less energy efficient than a parallel-hybrid system? Think about it.

 

I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the series-hybrid has to always perform 5 energy conversions, and there's a loss of energy with each:

1. Chemical energy (gasoline) to mechanical energy (the ICE)

2. Mechanical energy to electric energy

3. Electric energy to chemical energy (the battery)

4. Chemical energy to electric energy

5. Electric energy to mechanical energy (the motor)

 

Maybe the series-hybrid technology more than compensates for this because the ICE can run more efficiently at a constant RPM.

[lolder]

The Volt is now a plug-in hybrid and everybody will classify it as one no matter what GM calls it. It has THREE clutches!!! The plug-in Prius will go 13 miles EV vs. the Volts ~40. I don't know if the Prius will be eligible for any tax credits in it's new form. P-I Prius will eventually be a lot cheaper and we've seen how little money will be saved by EV mode anyway. I'm actually a little sorry for GM. The caveat to always remember is that EV mode is usually not more efficient than a direct ICE drive. Toyota and Ford always realized this.

[Waldo]

News flash, Mirak and others...somehow I missed this (thanks Joey), the Volt no longer just uses the ICE to charge the battery. It is now linked directly to the drive-train, just like the FFH. GM claims that they hid this information from the public and press due to patent concerns, but I suspect they realized about the same time we did that their charging only mode for ICE was just not going to cut it, and they fundamentally changed their design.

 

 

Yeah right, they just decided to throw a transmission in there at the last minute. Are you nuts? There's no way that GM could have changed the design any sooner than 2 years ago. It takes at least that long to develop, tool and test such a complicated part. When did GM (and not some journalist interpretation of a press release) actually say the motor wasn't connected in some way to the wheels?

 

Trying to compare a Volt after the EV range to the FFH is also pointless. That's like trying to compare a gas Fusion to a Explorer when only one person is driving. When you take any vehicle outside of it's fundamental purpose it won't be as efficient. After EV mode, the Volt will always be handicapped because it must carry around a bunch of dead batteries. How can GM possibly expect to be equal to an FFH that doesn't suffer from that penalty?

[mirak]

Wow. So the Volt is "just" a plug-in parallel hybrid? That's crazy. Shouldn't that jeopardize the $7,500 EV tax credit? Maybe it should, but of course it won't.

 

It will be interesting to see how Toyota formulates the new Prius's EV range versus its MPG (assuming the two have an inverse relationship). The Prius will have a significantly shorter EV range than the Volt, but I'm betting the Prius will get significantly better MPG beyond that range.

 

This raises an interesting question: Assuming price and other aspects (comfort, appearance, etc.) were the same, would you rather have a PHEV with a 15-mile EV range and 60 mpg beyond, or a PHEV with a 30-mile EV range, and 40 mpg beyond?

 

Even though neither configurtion is an economical choice at $40k for a compact car, I would probably opt for the one with the 30-mile EV range, because I can fit most of my daily driving into that range, so MPG would usually be irrelevant.

 

Of course, this discussion is completely hypothetical, because I think its safe to assume that Toyota is going to one-up the Volt. Might as well start referring to the new Prius as the Volt Killer.