FFH deal benchmark?

[oldschool1962]

I don't know... I think people see the word "profit" as a four-letter word these days. Everybody needs to make money.

 

No one needs anything other than food water and shelter. Beyond that it's want and I'd say most of us here are chronologically old enough where our needs and wants shouldn't hurt us. Especially since most of us grew up at a time when 5-15% was considered a great profit margin.

 

was taught in business that if you take care of your product and your people the profits will follow. The trouble is today we have so many companies doing things in the name of profit....more profits, create profits, drive sales and increase profits, you're fired because of profits, we are eliminating positions to shore up out bottom line (aka Profits) etc, etc, etc, etc, etc........! I went to buy a can of mushrooms for dinner the other day and found that a little 7oz can of Pennsylvania Dutch Mushrooms had to come all the way from China to Colonial Height Virginia and all in the name of profits. Trouble that wasn't the only thing I found. Made me sick! Sheesh!!!!! It's gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. Makes everyone sound more like a 3 year old and that's all I get out of the scenario.

 

Because of this it's difficult at best for many to view profits as anything other than a four letter word especially when profits instead of product and people are the driving force. I and so very many of my friends have no opposition to a company or individual making a profit.....it's when you make profits the "one and only important thing" is where we have a problem. Some will argue the point and say that a business is only there for profits and at one time I would agree. Yet I have become a grown up in the last 30 years and come to the conclusion and understanding that profits are only one aspect of the equation. A business is there to provide a product and or service for the fair exchange of monies or property in return for that product or service. Note the word fair. Just because a few...meaning the upper 2% of everybody......feells that a 30-80% profit margin is fair doesn't make it so. Fair is an average of what all consider not just the upper 2%

Edited January 19, 2011 by oldschool1962

[AptosDriver]

$28,985.00 was the price before we added everything else. But please note this was a specific dealership and there have been a couple price increases since. We compared car for car with another local dealer and they were't even close in Sale price or Trade value. Given everything we experienced...all the good and the bad...... I am happy that we chose Haley Ford.

What options (or option package) did you get?

[oldschool1962]

What options (or option package) did you get?

 

I thought I mentioned it already but 502A was the package and we added the 75,000 mile extended warranty.

 

 

 

side note to my last comment........ I was not China or any other country bashing. As a Chef I buy many imported items but I know what to expect. Unfortunately I'm the type of person that likes to see Pennsylvania Mushrooms come from Pennsylvania and my beef come from the midwest and not be labled "Product of Mexico Canada and USA." I figure I'm putting me in the car and the food in me?

[AptosDriver]

I thought I mentioned it already but 502A was the package and we added the 75,000 mile extended warranty.

You did mention it on the first page of this thread, but I didn't go back to look and didn't remember it. Anyway, according to the numbers I plugged into a car-cost spreadsheet I found online at CarBuyingTips.com, here, you got reasonably good price. Using this spreadsheet and allowing for a 3% dealer profit (they suggest 3-5% as reasonable), I come up with $32,278 for an FFH with the same option package. That includes the destination charge and $918 net profit for the dealer (with the holdback). With the addition of California sales taxes, license and some other fees, this car would cost me $35,737 "out the door." I'm trying to decide if that's worth the nearly $2,000 out-the-door premium over a similarly equipped Camry hybrid.

 

Question: Was the cost of the extended warranty on top of your price, or part of it?

Edited January 19, 2011 by AptosDriver

[akirby]

No one needs anything other than food water and shelter. Beyond that it's want and I'd say most of us here are chronologically old enough where our needs and wants shouldn't hurt us. Especially since most of us grew up at a time when 5-15% was considered a great profit margin.

 

was taught in business that if you take care of your product and your people the profits will follow. The trouble is today we have so many companies doing things in the name of profit....more profits, create profits, drive sales and increase profits, you're fired because of profits, we are eliminating positions to shore up out bottom line (aka Profits) etc, etc, etc, etc, etc........! I went to buy a can of mushrooms for dinner the other day and found that a little 7oz can of Pennsylvania Dutch Mushrooms had to come all the way from China to Colonial Height Virginia and all in the name of profits. Trouble that wasn't the only thing I found. Made me sick! Sheesh!!!!! It's gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. Makes everyone sound more like a 3 year old and that's all I get out of the scenario.

 

Because of this it's difficult at best for many to view profits as anything other than a four letter word especially when profits instead of product and people are the driving force. I and so very many of my friends have no opposition to a company or individual making a profit.....it's when you make profits the "one and only important thing" is where we have a problem. Some will argue the point and say that a business is only there for profits and at one time I would agree. Yet I have become a grown up in the last 30 years and come to the conclusion and understanding that profits are only one aspect of the equation. A business is there to provide a product and or service for the fair exchange of monies or property in return for that product or service. Note the word fair. Just because a few...meaning the upper 2% of everybody......feells that a 30-80% profit margin is fair doesn't make it so. Fair is an average of what all consider not just the upper 2%

 

I don't disagree but I think that it's not always just a pursuit of higher profits - sometimes it's simply a matter of staying in business with the competition. Example:

 

Let's say you're selling american mushrooms for $2/lb with a low but reasonable profit margin. Your competitor down the street finds he can get the same mushrooms from China and sell them for $1.50/lb at the same profit margin. Customers will buy the cheapest one so your only choice is to sell the american ones for $1.50 and lose money or switch to the Chinese mushrooms for $1.50 and stay in business.

 

It's the customers who only buy based on the absolute cheapest price they can get who drive the retailers to find cheaper sources which are often overseas. They simply aren't willing to pay a little more for products to support their local economies. These are also the people who would rather buy online or from ebay to save $2 than to buy local and help support their local economy.

 

Until consumers are willing to look past the bottom line prices and consider the impacts to other areas I don't think it will change.

[AptosDriver]

Until consumers are willing to look past the bottom line prices and consider the impacts to other areas I don't think it will change.

I seriously doubt if that will ever happen because from an economic standpoint, that would require consumers to behave irrationally. As consumers, we want to get the best deals we can on everything we purchase. Determining what's the "best deal" involves consideration of both price and quality. Where quality is equal, price is foremost. That would apply to any kind of commodity, such as mushrooms (assuming the cheaper Chinese mushrooms aren't tainted with lead or benzine). Cars are not a commodity. When it comes to choosing between, say, a mid-size sedan from one company and a similar vehicle from another, quality will often trump price, especially for car buyers whose budgets aren't tight. When one vehicle is superior to another in both price and quality, the decision is a no-brainer. Back in the early '70s, when Japanese cars were starting to flood the American market, there was a big buy-American campaign. Didn't work. The Japanese cars were superior to Detroit's products both price-wise and quality-wise. Domestic models have only just recently begun to catch up. Ford especially seems to have improved its product. That's why I've been looking at the FFH.

 

That said, when it comes to actually buying a specific vehicle, price will become the primary object and economically rational buyers will try to get the lowest price they can. The dealer's profit is not their concern; it's the dealer's, and it's everyone for him/herself. Adam Smith would approve.

[akirby]

That said, when it comes to actually buying a specific vehicle, price will become the primary object and economically rational buyers will try to get the lowest price they can. The dealer's profit is not their concern; it's the dealer's, and it's everyone for him/herself. Adam Smith would approve.

 

Ah yes - the "me, me, me" mentality. I don't care what happens to anyone else as long as I get what I want. These are the people that buy from ebay to save $2 instead of supporting their local brick and mortar store that employs their friends and family members. What happens if everyone in town negotiates below cost pricing from a car dealer? The car dealer goes out of business. All of the people that worked for the car dealer are out of a job. This hurts the entire local economy. You now have to go to another town to see new cars in person.

 

On the other hand if everyone offered a FAIR price (say $200 over invoice) then the dealer makes a little money, the employees stay employed, you get a good deal on a vehicle you like and everyone goes home happy. How is that a bad thing?

 

I expect to be treated fairly and to get good service and for that I'm willing to concede a fair profit to any retailer. I certainly don't do work for free - therefore I don't expect anyone else to do that either. And taking a fair profit away from a dealer is effectively asking them to work for free.

[dogo88]

I seriously doubt if that will ever happen because from an economic standpoint, that would require consumers to behave irrationally. As consumers, we want to get the best deals we can on everything we purchase. Determining what's the "best deal" involves consideration of both price and quality. Where quality is equal, price is foremost. That would apply to any kind of commodity, such as mushrooms (assuming the cheaper Chinese mushrooms aren't tainted with lead or benzine). Cars are not a commodity. When it comes to choosing between, say, a mid-size sedan from one company and a similar vehicle from another, quality will often trump price, especially for car buyers whose budgets aren't tight. When one vehicle is superior to another in both price and quality, the decision is a no-brainer. Back in the early '70s, when Japanese cars were starting to flood the American market, there was a big buy-American campaign. Didn't work. The Japanese cars were superior to Detroit's products both price-wise and quality-wise. Domestic models have only just recently begun to catch up. Ford especially seems to have improved its product. That's why I've been looking at the FFH.

 

That said, when it comes to actually buying a specific vehicle, price will become the primary object and economically rational buyers will try to get the lowest price they can. The dealer's profit is not their concern; it's the dealer's, and it's everyone for him/herself. Adam Smith would approve.

 

I disagree a bit. There are folks that buy on price only. With today's marketing it's difficult for a consumer to get a fair and correct product evaluation. For example, we're looking to get a new washer. For every unit that someone claims is great, I can find an equal number of ratings that state otherwise. I ended up using CR to be the deciding edge. But that is fraught with error since trying to find a model they test with is almost impossible.

 

I buy American made products unless I believe it's inferior. Finding American products is sometimes difficult. And while the "back in the 70's" argument is used a lot, lets not forget that the 70's were over 40 years ago. Things have radically changed. I remember in the 70's Honda's were rust buckets. They turned it around and today are a decent car. Unfortunately the domestic manufacturers don't seem to get the same consideration. But it is changing.

 

Dan

[AptosDriver]

I buy American made products unless I believe it's inferior. Finding American products is sometimes difficult. And while the "back in the 70's" argument is used a lot, lets not forget that the 70's were over 40 years ago. Things have radically changed. I remember in the 70's Honda's were rust buckets. They turned it around and today are a decent car. Unfortunately the domestic manufacturers don't seem to get the same consideration. But it is changing.

 

Dan

It is hard to find an American-made product anymore. There are all sorts of reasons for that, too numerous to enumerate here. But with so many companies being global concerns now, a domestic label isn't a guarantee that a product is wholly American made. For example, I'm pretty sure that the domestic content of both the FFH and the TCH is 50 percent, per the window stickers. The final assembly for the FFH is in Mexico, while the final assembly for the TCH is in Kentucky. So which car is really American-made? That question begged, I read that Ford is planning to hire something like 7,000 people this year. And although I don't know how that head-count breaks down in terms of where these new hires will come from, that has to be some kind of boost for domestic employment.

[CometFlash]

On the other hand if everyone offered a FAIR price (say $200 over invoice) then the dealer makes a little money, the employees stay employed, you get a good deal on a vehicle you like and everyone goes home happy. How is that a bad thing?

 

I agree with this point. However, I believe the frustration with this debate is that with car sales, the public has been led to believe, truly or falsely, that dealers are out to screw them over. That would be my guess as to why a lot of people want to get the absolute best deal/lowest price humanly possible. And even at that, they still feel that the dealer made more money than they should have on the deal because they always have the upper hand/inside knowledge.

 

If car dealers just sold every vehicle made at +$XXX.xx over invoice, and there was absolutely no haggling necessary, I don't think anyone would have an issue with them making that $XXX.xx profit margin. I think the whole super-haggling comes into play because people feel that cars cost way more than they should and people feel a lot of that is profit to the dealer/manufacturer and not anywhere near the true cost to build & sell the car.

 

At any rate, that's my guess as to why this stigma exists and why some people do so much spreadsheeting and researching before they even set foot in the dealerships to start that arduous process in person. I myself wouldn't go too in-depth on the pricing breakdown, though I would do lots of research for the right fit vehicle for me and do some basic pricing research to see what others are truly paying for the vehicle(s) I'm looking at. But everyone is different, and they need to do what's comfortable for them. My guess is that if Aptos goes into a dealer with all his homework sheets with him, he'll have a lot more solid footing to stand on when negotiating. Does it mean it'll always be the best way to approach each dealer? Not always, some of them may be aggravated by thinking they are now on the short end, and not want to do any deals, or perhaps add-on as many nitpicky costs as possible to offset the lost margin. Still, my bet is that it's better to be prepared than not. :stats:

 

I know next to nothing of X-Plan and how that all works, so maybe that's a better method... or maybe not. Again, each person just needs to do what's right for him.

 

Who knows, just my take on the whole thing. To each his own. To summarize my point, I don't think anyone has a problem with dealers making a profit, it's just that they never can be sure just how much is profit and did they get a really fair deal or did the dealer LOL when they walked out after signing the paperwork? :headscratch: :shrug:

Edited January 20, 2011 by CometFlash

[dogo88]

...

Who knows, just my take on the whole thing. To each his own. To summarize my point, I don't think anyone has a problem with dealers making a profit, it's just that they never can be sure just how much is profit and did they get a really fair deal or did the dealer LOL when they walked out after signing the paperwork? :headscratch: :shrug:

 

Totally agree. I did find a way around this for our last three vehicles. I financed them through the credit union. They offer a buying service to search for the best out the door price with out charge or obligation and regardless of whether you huy their car or another take 1/4% off the loan rate. The loan has a no penalty early payoff clause. So if you decide to pay it all off in one month, that's ok.

 

When I bought the FFH in May 2009 they had a price that was $500 less than sticker. During that time they were going for sticker or more. When the car came in and I went to pick it up I was there and out in less than 20 minutes. So with the test drive and the pickup I spent less that 60 minutes in the dealership.

 

Dan

[oldschool1962]

Question: Was the cost of the extended warranty on top of your price, or part of it?

 

The cost of the warranty was on top of the price I mentioned. That falls under the category of what we decided to finance compared to what we paid. This car we financed a chunk because of the negative equity in the 06 Odyssey. I think the cost of the warranty was around 1200.00.

 

As far as the 2000.00 premium over the Camry, you can be the only one to answer that. I can give some thoughts though. We purchased a Prius for my Wife the month prior to buying the FFH. I looked heavily at the Camry and if Toyota would have offered us more than 14,000 for a 06 Odyssey EX RES-Nav we probably would have stuck with Toyota. I liked the new style of the FFH over the Toyota and the more we looked the more it made sense to go with it and we were glad our Dealership was a bit more reasonable with trade. Heck the Black Book was 21,000. on our van and there was no way we were going to settle for less than the 19,500 we did get. Anyhow, the way the FFH performs, or should I say out performs the Camry is worth the extra change in my book. Better gas mileage, better power, nice ride and comfort.......The Camry is nice but it's not the FFH. The only thing I wish is that head room wasn't lost with the roof. We have the sunroof and even though I'm not tall, I have some issues that make the lost space from the roof troublesome. The headliner at the door is like 60grit against my bald head. Doohhh!!! Hehehe

 

akirby, aptos, etc......I like your style and actually....... great comments from everyone on both the car and........... I guess I took a chance on the level of intellect here and wasn't disappointed. It's always nice when people can share ideologies and not get carried away with the "nah, nah, na, boo, boo" approach. Hobby site I once belonged to would fall that way. Anyhow....I wish good conversations would happen more often and I can probably count on one hand the number of "good conversations" I've had in the last 5 years.

Edited January 20, 2011 by oldschool1962

[AptosDriver]

I believe the frustration with this debate is that with car sales, the public has been led to believe, truly or falsely, that dealers are out to screw them over.

I think the whole super-haggling comes into play because people feel that cars cost way more than they should and people feel a lot of that is profit to the dealer/manufacturer and not anywhere near the true cost to build & sell the car.

 

At any rate, that's my guess as to why this stigma exists and why some people do so much spreadsheeting and researching before they even set foot in the dealerships to start that arduous process in person. I myself wouldn't go too in-depth on the pricing breakdown, though I would do lots of research for the right fit vehicle for me and do some basic pricing research to see what others are truly paying for the vehicle(s) I'm looking at. But everyone is different, and they need to do what's comfortable for them. My guess is that if Aptos goes into a dealer with all his homework sheets with him, he'll have a lot more solid footing to stand on when negotiating. Does it mean it'll always be the best way to approach each dealer? Not always, some of them may be aggravated by thinking they are now on the short end, and not want to do any deals, or perhaps add-on as many nitpicky costs as possible to offset the lost margin. Still, my bet is that it's better to be prepared than not. :stats:

 

I know next to nothing of X-Plan and how that all works, so maybe that's a better method... or maybe not. Again, each person just needs to do what's right for him.

I don't know what a typical Ford dealership's M.O. is yet, because I haven't seen an actual dealer's invoice yet (although I requested one from a local dealer just this morning). But I know of at least one Toyota dealer that would definitely try to "screw" a buyer over on a new Camry hybrid if they could. Yesterday, I had an IM chat with a salesman at an SF Bay Area Toyota dealer, well stocked with TCH's. He gave me a couple of quotes, one for a fully loaded TCH and one for a partially loaded model (sunroof, leather seats, no NAV). He subsequently sent me invoices for both cars. When I checked his prices against the quotes for the same cars on his dealership's Website, I discovered that the prices he quoted me were $1,000 higher than the Website quotes for both cars! ("Screwing" no. 1) An examination of the fees tacked on to the ends of the invoices revealed the following: (1) this Toyota dealership is actually charging its customer for the dealer holdback; and (2) the dealership is charging its customers for its floorplan costs. (Screwings no. 2 and 3)

 

There's been a lot of back and forth in this thread about the holdback. At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum (sp?), let me repeat myself: The holdback is a subsidy to the dealer, paid by the manufacturer when the dealer sells a car. So by adding the holdback to the invoice as a back-end fee, this Toyota dealer is actually trying to collect it twice, first from an unwitting buyer and second from Toyota. This is pretty nervy of them and a bigger screwing, I cannot think of. Both Consumer Reports and another extensive car-buyers' Website, CarBuyingTips.com, strongly advise prospective buyers to subtract the holdback from the invoice cost of the car (base invoice cost plus options invoice costs) before making an initial offer -- even though most dealers are loath to give it up. But in this case, a prospective TCH buyer would have to subtract it twice.

 

As for the floorplan costs, identified on the invoice as "wholesale financial reserves," that's the interest the dealer has to pay either the manufacturer or a bank for any new car sitting on its lot. Moreover, that's what the holdback is supposed to compensate them for in the first place. The faster they can sell a car, the more of the holdback they get to keep. CarBuyingTips.com recommends that you subtract this charge from invoice as well. It's not your problem if a dealer can't sell the car more quickly. If anything, mounting floorplan costs give you more leverage in any deal. That's one of the reasons why it's often recommended that you wait until the end of the month to buy a new car.

 

So here's a buyer's math on a fully loaded TCH (per CarBuyingTips.com's spreadsheet): Total base vehicle and option price, $28,459 (MSRP, $34,140); minus the dealer holdback, $536 (actual holdback on the invoice is $531, but $536 is the closest I could get on the spreadsheet); minus floorplan costs, $265; plus gasoline, $10.08; plus "TDA", an advertising charge from Toyota, $468, plus a 4% dealer profit margin of $1,106.28, yields a negotiated selling price, before destination charges, of $28,763. This on a car quoted on the dealer's Website at $30,273. If a buyer agreed without question to that price, the dealer would then tack on the holdback as a charge and stick the customer with his floorplan costs, boosting his profit to $2,610 -- a profit margin of 9.2%! So, clearly, the watchword for any savvy TCH buyer is caveat emptor. The new-car marketplace is tantamount to a third-world bazaar, and a "fair price" remains whatever both parties agree on.

 

Again, I don't know if Ford dealers employ tactics similar to what this Toyota dealer uses. I have decided that the Ford X-Plan is not as good a deal as it looks. Sure, it simplifies matters because any participating Ford dealership will sell you just about any vehicle for "$100 over invoice." But in the case of the FFH, that means the dealer gets $100 over invoice, plus the $847 holdback they get from Ford. OK, I'll concede the dealer a $947 profit on the car; heck, make it $1,000. And that ought to be enough. But you can bet I'll be carefully scrutinizing their invoice to see what charges they're trying to slip in on the back end, and woe to them if they're adding the factory holdback as a charge the way the Toyota dealer is.

 

And as Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that." :rant:

[akirby]

There you go again, making it way more complicated than necessary. It doesn't matter what the dealer calls the extra fees - whether it's Doc Fee or Holdback or Dealer Prep or Floor plan - any fee that's added to the vehicle cost after the fact other than tax, tag, title or other government required fees is simply additional dealer profit.

 

And every vehicle brand has dealers that do this - it's been standard practice at some dealers for decades.

 

The advantage with X plan is the dealer is NOT ALLOWED to charge any of those extra fees and they can only charge a $100 doc fee rather than $300-$500 which is typical. The dealer also gets an extra spiff check from Ford. You're also given any dealer cash that the mfr is offering directly - they're not allowed to keep anything. So you're protected.

 

But here's the real issue with all this price speculation - it doesn't matter what the dealer's true price is on something. What matters is supply and demand and what others are willing to pay. If the dealer is selling every FFH they can get for $500 below MSRP, there is no way they're going to sell you one for $500 below invoice.

 

In the end all you can do is negotiate the lowest price the dealer is willing to accept and that might be dealer invoice minus holdback, dealer invoice or MSRP, it just depends.

[AptosDriver]

There you go again, making it way more complicated than necessary. It doesn't matter what the dealer calls the extra fees - whether it's Doc Fee or Holdback or Dealer Prep or Floor plan - any fee that's added to the vehicle cost after the fact other than tax, tag, title or other government required fees is simply additional dealer profit.

 

And every vehicle brand has dealers that do this - it's been standard practice at some dealers for decades.

 

The advantage with X plan is the dealer is NOT ALLOWED to charge any of those extra fees and they can only charge a $100 doc fee rather than $300-$500 which is typical. The dealer also gets an extra spiff check from Ford. You're also given any dealer cash that the mfr is offering directly - they're not allowed to keep anything. So you're protected.

 

But here's the real issue with all this price speculation - it doesn't matter what the dealer's true price is on something. What matters is supply and demand and what others are willing to pay. If the dealer is selling every FFH they can get for $500 below MSRP, there is no way they're going to sell you one for $500 below invoice.

 

In the end all you can do is negotiate the lowest price the dealer is willing to accept and that might be dealer invoice minus holdback, dealer invoice or MSRP, it just depends.

As I said, that's all I have to say about that.

[akirby]

As I said, that's all I have to say about that.

 

Promises, promises...........

[AptosDriver]

Promises, promises...........

 

:bandance:

[MrMikeL]

I'd love to vote in the poll, but there are no options for UNDER invoice. I bought a 2010 FFH for $25,999 with the 502A package. My guess is that's about $3,500 to $4,000 BELOW invoice. Tax, license, extended warranty brought it up to approx $28,999.

[akirby]

I'd love to vote in the poll, but there are no options for UNDER invoice. I bought a 2010 FFH for $25,999 with the 502A package. My guess is that's about $3,500 to $4,000 BELOW invoice. Tax, license, extended warranty brought it up to approx $28,999.

 

Dealer invoice is around $30,300 minus $2K rebates right now which would make the actual dealer invoice $28,300. I see from the other thread that you had a $9000 trade-in. Unless this was a vehicle the dealer had sitting around for several months and wanted to get rid of, the extra $2k-$4K came from your trade-in.

Edited January 21, 2011 by akirby

[MrMikeL]

$25,999 was the dealer price, regardless of my trade-in. This was in mid-October and the car had been sitting on the lot for 3 months.

[eneg]

$25,999 was the dealer price, regardless of my trade-in. This was in mid-October and the car had been sitting on the lot for 3 months.

Hi MrMikeL,

 

Are you sayiing that the car was marked $25,999 on the lot?

There were no negotiations?

 

Eneg

[Zzyzx]

$25,999 was the dealer price, regardless of my trade-in. This was in mid-October and the car had been sitting on the lot for 3 months.

 

You got a GREAT deal.

[MrMikeL]

Yes, they had marked the car down $1,500 over the course of 10 days (I was watching the price on the internet) down to $25,999. Called them up and they said no further negotiation on price as it was already well below invoice. I agree, I got an amazing deal.

[eneg]

Yes, they had marked the car down $1,500 over the course of 10 days (I was watching the price on the internet) down to $25,999. Called them up and they said no further negotiation on price as it was already well below invoice. I agree, I got an amazing deal.

Hmmm, something's missing here.

I don't remember any incentives on the hybrids a few months back, so why would a dealer sell at 4k below cost?

There has to be a reason.

Was it a demo?

Was it a returned car?

Did you check with Carfax.com to make sure that there wasn't another owner between you & the dealer?

How many miles were on the odometer when it was purchased?

 

Just looking for an answer to this. . .

 

Eneg

Edited January 22, 2011 by eneg

[akirby]

I'm going for D) incriminating pictures of the sales manager