FFH deal benchmark?

[Grey]

Like you have said before, if you think it's a good deal, then it is.

 

I almost wish there was a forum for AXZD buyers where we could discuss all the current incentives, dealer cash, local promotions, RCL and residual information, short term ESP deals (contests), finance rates, dealer installed and mod shop accessories, etc. Clearly it is too much information for a retail buyer to have access to or for them to try to utilize to their benefit. Most sales people don't even know all that might be out there since thry don't have access to C&I or VinCent information. The controlled Ford sites for plan buyers don't permit us to interact with each other, discuss lease/buy alternatives and they don'tt always include the latest and most complete offerings. That could be a great resource for Plan buyers.

 

I want consumers to get good deals but I also expect dealerships to be able to pay sales personnel and the light bill, so I will cautiously interact on pricing and remind people that you don't know the whole deal when someone justs quotes "the price of the car".

[MrMikeL]

Hmmm, something's missing here.

I don't remember any incentives on the hybrids a few months back, so why would a dealer sell at 4k below cost?

There has to be a reason.

Was it a demo?

Was it a returned car?

Did you check with Carfax.com to make sure that there wasn't another owner between you & the dealer?

How many miles were on the odometer when it was purchased?

 

Just looking for an answer to this. . .

 

Eneg

 

Couldn't say why they were so deeply discounted other than what's already been mentioned, sitting on the lot for 3 months. There were 30 miles on the odo when I took my test drive. Checked CarFax and AutoCheck - both clean.

[eneg]

Couldn't say why they were so deeply discounted other than what's already been mentioned, sitting on the lot for 3 months. There were 30 miles on the odo when I took my test drive. Checked CarFax and AutoCheck - both clean.

Well, I don't get it, but all that I can say is "Nice goin'!"

 

Eneg

[oldschool1962]

Hmmm, something's missing here.

I don't remember any incentives on the hybrids a few months back, so why would a dealer sell at 4k below cost?

.......

Eneg

 

Eneg,

 

In South Central Virginia we had incentives extended to all Ford Models including the Hybrid but excluding the Shelby. If I remember correctly it was back in Sept-Oct. and the incentive was 0%-60 months or something like 3000.00 cash back on all 2010 models.

[irishapple21]

I just bought a brand new 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with Rapid Spec 501A on clearance last week. It was the last one they had at my local dealer: Atlantis Green exterior, Charcoal Black eco-cloth interior. I bought the car at a discount through my union's auto buying program. I also took advantage of Ford's $2000 in cash incentives, so the ending price for it was $24,700. I believe that is pretty far below invoice, but I really got lucky that I was even able to find a 2010 model left.

[AptosDriver]

I just bought a brand new 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with Rapid Spec 501A on clearance last week. It was the last one they had at my local dealer: Atlantis Green exterior, Charcoal Black eco-cloth interior. I bought the car at a discount through my union's auto buying program. I also took advantage of Ford's $2000 in cash incentives, so the ending price for it was $24,700. I believe that is pretty far below invoice, but I really got lucky that I was even able to find a 2010 model left.

Yup, you got terrific deal, although not "pretty far below invoice", i.e. the dealer's actual cost. Invoice for a 2010 base model FFH with Rapid Spec 501A and cloth seats is $27,624, according to Consumer Reports. Subtract the $2,000 cash incentive (that Ford gave the dealer and not you), and the dealer's cost is down to $25,624. Then, according to Consumer Reports and another extensive car-buying advice Website, CarBuyingTips.com, you need to further subtract the $840 "holdback" (kickback) the dealer gets from Ford for every 2010 FFH sold. That lowers the dealer's actual cost for this car to $24,784. So they sold you this car for $84 under their real cost. The dealer was probably looking at more floorplan charges if they hadn't sold you this car when they did. Congratulations on your great timing.

[eneg]

Eneg,

 

In South Central Virginia we had incentives extended to all Ford Models including the Hybrid but excluding the Shelby. If I remember correctly it was back in Sept-Oct. and the incentive was 0%-60 months or something like 3000.00 cash back on all 2010 models.

I'm not questioning what you say, but I will tell you that the Ford website did say

"excluding hybrid models," on all incentives through the end of 2010.

 

It's hard to believe that it took at least four months to correct that.

 

I started to shop the car this past Summer and have really kept a pretty close eye on the web site since then.

I still do (don't ask me why:) )

That exclusion has been there until very recently. . .

 

Eneg

[Dclifford110910]

I read through some of this forum, and I will say that there are dealers out there that will give you a whole lot. I got my fully loaded- not a thing missing, from the factory 10' hybrid fusion for $28k out the door. It had 8 miles on it. It was end if the year and they had 11' in stock so they wanted it off the lot, but shop around. I was patient and looked around- a lot and it paid off. I did notice around here they were not as willing to work with me on a Linkcoln Hybrid which was my initial desire. Good luck!

[eneg]

I read through some of this forum, and I will say that there are dealers out there that will give you a whole lot. I got my fully loaded- not a thing missing, from the factory 10' hybrid fusion for $28k out the door. It had 8 miles on it. It was end if the year and they had 11' in stock so they wanted it off the lot, but shop around. I was patient and looked around- a lot and it paid off. I did notice around here they were not as willing to work with me on a Linkcoln Hybrid which was my initial desire. Good luck!

Hi Dclifford110910,

 

Hmmm, that's a coincidence!

My dealer also had 11 2010's on the lot when I bought my 11 in November!

Not too far from you.

Could we have bought from the same place?????

 

Greenway Ford in Orlando.

 

(They now have three left.)

 

Eneg

Edited January 26, 2011 by eneg

[oldschool1962]

Egen,

 

I understand your point. It's just my perception with the vehicle but......Florida is a much hotter market for Hybrids given the lack of temp swing and the terrain. I'm not saying we don't have a good number of them here in Central VA on the I-95 corridor (considering we own one of each species...Fusion and Prius....) ;) but given our winters I would say that some are reluctant to make the switch and this has some Dealerships offering incentives or perks to entice folks to get the old model year off the lot. I watch things here too, mainly because I like to see the trend so I can determine when before our warranty is up I will decide to trade up. There were 3 or 4 separate dealerships in the area that had an abundance of 2010 FFH's and they weren't bringing in the 2011's until the others were gone. The dealership I purchased from had 8 as late as October but on my last trip in November....they were gone. Living in many different regions of the country over the last 30 years I would say that it's not uncommon for the "area dealers" to increase incentives over and above what the factory issues. The only markets out of all those where things were as the factory stated were on vehicles that were sought after in that area.

 

I also remember driving to another state to get a deal on a vehicle but the trouble nowadays is that the states have wised up on taxes and you end up getting nailed. When we moved from Missouri to Virginia in 2006, I wished that we had waited to replace our totaled Odyssey until we arrived here but making our way across the country in an Accord coupe was just not in the cards. If we had waited..... we would have saved probably 2 grand out of pocket in the end between taxes and other things especially since in Missouri you do not pay sales tax on the vehicle at the dealership. Payments are made at the DMV.

[Dclifford110910]

oldschool1692,

 

No, I purchased mine in Austin, Texas. But i do know the dealer you are talking about. I went through Leif Johnson Ford and they were wonderful. They did have the 2011' cars on the lot and I actually drove one and decided to purchase it. However the sales men ironically the owner of the dealer, said that they had one 2010' left and would be able to give me a much better deal, that it had more the only two major differences were leather color and outside color. Which if I'm saving a few thousand dollars that didn't bother me at all, and mine came with automatic start. Just a small perk that made a difference to me.

 

Egen,

 

I would really recommend lots of shopping around. I went a little over 75 miles to this dealer outside of where I was at the time and it was well worth the drive. They gave us so much more for our trade and for the car itself. The dealer got nothing out of that deal. There are dealers out there, just shop around. Those internet quotes are flexible. They just want to get what they can before they let there guard down. Good Luck!

[EGFP]

Although I'm not near ready to close any deals yet, the other day just for the heck of it I completed one of those online forms requesting dealer quotes on an FFH. A local Ford/Lincoln dealer got back to me within a day with an offer for a fully loaded FFH (with "502A Rapid Spec"): $31,559 plus tax, license and fees. Now as near as I can figure from my elaborate spreadsheet (based on Consumer Reports invoice data), that works out to $104 over invoice. Doesn't sound like very much, but then the dealer also gets $847 from Ford (dealer "holdback", per CR) for selling me this car, which actually works out to a $951 profit. So there oughta be some negotiating wiggle room in there. :shift:

 

If you shop around and play hard to get, and get a quote from a dealer willing to sell at the X plan price, you should get the price for a FFH w/ the 502A spec down to mid $29K, at least as of 4 months ago.

[AptosDriver]

If you shop around and play hard to get, and get a quote from a dealer willing to sell at the X plan price, you should get the price for a FFH w/ the 502A spec down to mid $29K, at least as of 4 months ago.

I will definitely be hard to get. :headspin:

[EGFP]

I don't completely agree with those who think one should accept a higher price so the dealer can make some real money. I am not a dealer, and I am sure it's often a razor-thin margin on some cars, but they make huge margins on other cars. Moreover, dealers can get rebates on vehicles (with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge) from FoMoCo easily, if you put their feet to the fire and tell them about a quote from another dealer (even if far away). If you drag it out and have a price from another dealer, again even if it's farther away than you'd like to go, the local dealer will probably go for the sale at the competitive price. That is capitalism. As a consumer, you are not in it to help FoMoCo but to get the best price possible. The other thing is, there is nothing wrong ethically with demanding a good deal on a hybrid. If they want to grow their hybrid share, they need to accept a lower margin in hopes of future better margins if economies of scale and increased demand kicks in. They are taking a risk, but so are you. Let's face it. Unless you are in a southern climate where you'll get great mileage consistently throughout the year or unless gas prices go upward of $5/gallon, you will not make back the extra money on the hybrid unless you hold the vehicle for a decade.

 

The exception is at the high end with the Lincoln MKZ, where the base non-hybrid model is a V6 FWD, so the base ICE-only MKZ model is way up from the base FF. It's still great that the prices are equivalent for the V6 FWD MKZ and the hybrid MKZ, but if you make a similar V6 FF comparison to the FFH, it's not that big a gap.

 

Bottom line is, as a consumer, you should get the best price you can. If your conscience bugs you about this, then - dammit all to hell - Toyota gained the lion's share of hybrid market share by subsidizing the vehicles. If Ford wants to be a competitor, it should too. To be a player in this sector, the onus is on the automaker, not you. If they want green PR but are not willing to do what it takes to increase their market share, then that's either a miscalculation about the future profits to increased market share or else an indication that they think hybrids will never be a great money maker. Either way, you should get the best price you can. That's ultimately good for you and for capitalism.

[AptosDriver]

I don't completely agree with those who think one should accept a higher price so the dealer can make some real money. I am not a dealer, and I am sure it's often a razor-thin margin on some cars, but they make huge margins on other cars. Moreover, dealers can get rebates on vehicles (with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge) from FoMoCo easily, if you put their feet to the fire and tell them about a quote from another dealer (even if far away). If you drag it out and have a price from another dealer, again even if it's farther away than you'd like to go, the local dealer will probably go for the sale at the competitive price. That is capitalism. As a consumer, you are not in it to help FoMoCo but to get the best price possible.

 

Bottom line is, as a consumer, you should get the best price you can. If your conscience bugs you about this, then - dammit all to hell - Toyota gained the lion's share of hybrid market share by subsidizing the vehicles. If Ford wants to be a competitor, it should too. To be a player in this sector, the onus is on the automaker, not you. If they want green PR but are not willing to do what it takes to increase their market share, then that's either a miscalculation about the future profits to increased market share or else an indication that they think hybrids will never be a great money maker. Either way, you should get the best price you can. That's ultimately good for you and for capitalism.

This has been a subject of some vigorous debate on this forum and I don't agree with those who sympathize with the dealers either -- not at all. When I go out into the car marketplace this next time, I will be gunning for the best deal I can squeeze out of 'em. And I won't hesitate to walk if a dealer won't meet my offer. And if none of them will, we'll just keep our paid-off '00 Volvo S70 GLT for a couple more years and another 20-25 K on the odometer (on top of the 115 K we have now).

[akirby]

That's because to you guys a dealer is a faceless corporation. What if the owner and/or salesperson was your best friend or your brother, sister, mother or father? Would you care if they went out of business? Or is it a case of you want them to make money off everyone else, just not you?

 

What's wrong with everyone making a fair profit without having to rip off every other buyer to stay in business? How would you like it if everyone did that to your employer or to you personally?

 

What happens when the local dealer goes out of business and you have to drive 30 miles to the next one - or the remaining dealers jack up their prices due to lack of local competition?

 

You guys really are short-sighted and selfish.

[AptosDriver]

That's because to you guys a dealer is a faceless corporation. What if the owner and/or salesperson was your best friend or your brother, sister, mother or father? Would you care if they went out of business? Or is it a case of you want them to make money off everyone else, just not you?

 

What's wrong with everyone making a fair profit without having to rip off every other buyer to stay in business? How would you like it if everyone did that to your employer or to you personally?

 

What happens when the local dealer goes out of business and you have to drive 30 miles to the next one - or the remaining dealers jack up their prices due to lack of local competition?

 

You guys really are short-sighted and selfish.

OK, akirby, I have about had it with this back and forth. :banghead: What if a salesperson and sales manager who don't know either of us from Adam try to pick our pockets? :redcard: We are neither short-sighted nor selfish. We are just doing what customers are supposed to do in a free market, and assuming that the sellers are doing the same. It's frankly naive to believe or behave otherwise. Socialist/communist economic systems dictate prices. Our free-market system, inspired by Adam Smith, doesn't. And if you want to understand the true meaning of "selfish" in our present-day economy, I suggest that you read either or both of the following books: Free Lunch, How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (And Stick You with the Bill), by David Cay Johnston; Winner-Take-All Politics, How Washington Made the Rich Richer -- and Turned Its Back on the Middle Class, by Jacob S. Hacker and Paul Pierson. :read: Now, I will stipulate that most car dealers probably don't play in the same leagues as the wealthy people and corporate interests discussed by these authors, but in an economy that is essentially rigged against ordinary people, the one place where we can assert ourselves any more is in the car bazaar. And I will make every effort to do so when I go in there again. :rant:

 

One more thing: Folks like us buy a car on average once every seven years or so. The guys and gals at the car dealerships sell them every day. So who do you think is most advantaged in this game? Not you or me, that's for sure! :bowdown:

[EGFP]

That's because to you guys a dealer is a faceless corporation. What if the owner and/or salesperson was your best friend or your brother, sister, mother or father? Would you care if they went out of business? Or is it a case of you want them to make money off everyone else, just not you?

 

What's wrong with everyone making a fair profit without having to rip off every other buyer to stay in business? How would you like it if everyone did that to your employer or to you personally?

 

What happens when the local dealer goes out of business and you have to drive 30 miles to the next one - or the remaining dealers jack up their prices due to lack of local competition?

 

You guys really are short-sighted and selfish.

 

I can say that they owners here seem to be doing pretty well. The employees are doing okay too, talking with some of them. If a few less efficient dealers go out of business, so be it. Where I live, there are a huge number. There'd still be competition.

 

I don't know what fair profit is. Fair profit is entirely subjective. 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%? What is it, and how do we know what fair profit is? The system is opaque. Invoice prices are not really what dealer's pay.

 

If we can't define and agree on what a fair profit is, then how can we define and say what a good deal is? The dealer is trying to get the highest price possible, and we should try to get the lowest price possible. That's how it works. And that's what makes the system healthy.

 

Dealers make a decision to sell a car at a "low price." They are not generally suicidal. If they didn't get something out of it, they wouldn't sell at that price at all. So the fact they will sell at a "low price" means they are getting something out of it. It's the flip side of us agreeing to buy at a certain price. That's barter, and the automotive sales are a barter system. Ultimately, the fact that both sides agree on a price, high or low, means that both sides are happy. Maybe the buyer will buy at a "high price" out of ignorance, but the dealer won't sell at a low price out of ignorance. They know what they are making for each sale, and if they sell, they are doing it because it is in their benefit to do so, no matter what the price. If the dealer is someone who is selling at a loss consistently and they go out of business, then that is good. They should go out of business. But it's their fault for selling too low, and not the consumers, who was just doing "their job" to get the best price, just as it's the dealer's job to sell at the highest price.

 

With hybrids, in particular, dealers and the Ford company itself must accept short-term losses. The market is still not solid enough. Either that, or lobby the Gov't for extended tax rebates, which makes sense too, if the Gov't is serious about being green, even if with a transitional technology like hybrids.

 

At any rate, it is irresponsible of the consumer to not try to get the best deal possible, just as much as it is irresponsible of the seller to not try to get the highest price. If either side doesn't try their best, the system doesn't work, competitiveness suffers. That's capitalism, baby. It works when everyone tries to "cheat" the other person, and then they meet in the middle. A sale itself, no matter what the price, is proof that for that sale, they did meet in the middle in that case to both parties' satisfaction. I love it!

[AptosDriver]

At any rate, it is irresponsible of the consumer to not try to get the best deal possible, just as much as it is irresponsible of the seller to not try to get the highest price. If either side doesn't try their best, the system doesn't work, competitiveness suffers. That's capitalism, baby. It works when everyone tries to "cheat" the other person, and then they meet in the middle. A sale itself, no matter what the price, is proof that for that sale, they did meet in the middle in that case to both parties' satisfaction. I love it!

It's not that much different from the stock market. The price of a stock is whatever the buyers and sellers agree it is.

[akirby]

I don't work for free. Plumbers don't work for free. McDonalds fry cooks don't work for free. Expecting to buy a car at true dealer cost is asking the dealership employees to work for free.

 

Here is a perfect example. I play a lot of tennis. I have a local store that lets me demo racquets and it gives me a place to try on shoes, clothes, pick up accessories, etc. It's convenient.

 

I let them string my tennis racquets because that's where they make a lot of their profit. I can get it done cheaper doing it myself or getting a friend to do it. But if everybody did that then the store

would go out of business and I wouldn't have a place to demo racquets or get free advice and several people would be out of a job.

 

It's your money - do whatever you want with it. I'm done.

[EGFP]

It's not that much different from the stock market. The price of a stock is whatever the buyers and sellers agree it is.

 

Exactly. Sometimes you buy too high, when your emotions are involved, other times you buy low, when you're thinking rationally and on top of the game. Either way, the transaction was a "fair price" at that moment in time.

[CometFlash]

Exactly. Sometimes you buy too high, when your emotions are involved, other times you buy low, when you're thinking rationally and on top of the game. Either way, the transaction was a "fair price" at that moment in time.

 

For sure. A 2-year diff. in stock price cost me a loss of $200,000 (to go back in time... if only). Life-changing, but who knew. It's a crapshoot, just got to live life best you can no matter what is thrown at you. So pretty soon I'll be driving an FFH to help save $$$ to pay off my new home, rather than having it payed off in one shot. :banghead: Don't like to think about it much.

[AptosDriver]

I don't work for free. Plumbers don't work for free. McDonalds fry cooks don't work for free. Expecting to buy a car at true dealer cost is asking the dealership employees to work for free.

I never worked for free in my life. The point is that dealers' costs are not transparent. You may think you know what a dealer's "true cost" is. But in fact, unless you do your "due diligence" they're going to slip stuff by you that is guaranteed to inflate their margins. For example, a Toyota Internet guy sent me a couple of invoices for Camry hybrids. At that particular dealership they're trying to charge the customer for the factory holdback, as if it's a cost to them. It's not; it's a kickback that they get from Toyota when they sell the car. So in this case, they're trying to collect it twice -- from the customer and from Toyota. :redcard: Would you let 'em get away with this if you knew about it? Maybe you would out of the goodness of your heart, but I seriously doubt it.

 

As for dealers making money on the cars they sell, here's another personal anecdote: There's a free Internet car-buying site called Carsdirect.com. CarBuyingTips.com recommends it as an easy way to get a good deal on any car you want to buy, without all the potential haggling/hassling involved in an actual visit to a dealership. You plug in your ZIP code and specify the vehicle you want, plus options. The Website returns a "net" price. Then, if you're ready to deal, you give 'em your name, phone number, etc., etc. They hook you up with a dealer in your vicinity who has the car you want and has agreed to sell it at the price they've quoted. The quoted price includes the destination charge, but excludes taxes, title and registration fees, or whatever. So here's the "punchline": Just for the heck of it, I priced a fully loaded FFH (with Rapid Spec 502A). Their price was only $253 more than the price calculated by my spreadsheet (net of the holdback, of course, and allowing for a 3% dealer profit). The dealers are going along with this, so they must be happy. (And why not? They're getting another $250 more than Ford's factory holdback/kickback.) A buyer who accepts this price -- it could be moi -- must be happy with it too. :headspin: So by free-market definition, it's eminently fair.

 

Here is a perfect example. I play a lot of tennis. I have a local store that lets me demo racquets and it gives me a place to try on shoes, clothes, pick up accessories, etc. It's convenient.

 

I let them string my tennis racquets because that's where they make a lot of their profit. I can get it done cheaper doing it myself or getting a friend to do it. But if everybody did that then the store would go out of business and I wouldn't have a place to demo racquets or get free advice and several people would be out of a job.

Comparing a local tennis equipment store with a car dealership is like comparing apples and oranges -- in fact, it's not even as good, since apples and oranges are at least both fruit. You're a regular tennis player; you'll return to that store many times during the year. They know their business; they're closer than the nearest Big 5, or whatever. You want them to do well because they're convenient and obviously, they treat you well. Given a similar choice, I would do the same thing. That's one of the reasons that -- now that we can afford it -- I like to shop at the more costly local market down the street as well as at Safeway. (Or for that matter, pricier Bed Bath and Beyond, instead of, say, Costco. This national chain treats their customers very well; they will let you return a failed appliance years after you bought it and exchange it for a new one -- even without a store receipt! :beerchug:) On the other hand, Americans only buy a car on average once every seven years. You won't have a continuing relationship with your car dealer salesman or sales manager. Now the service department, that's another story altogether. One more thing: When you buy gas for your car, do you try to find the cheapest gas that you can? Or do you patronize the station on the opposite corner that's charging 5 to 10 cents more a gallon? Just asking ... :drop:

It's your money - do whatever you want with it. I'm done.

I will. And you do whatever you want with yours. :finger: It's a free, capitalist economy -- up to a point, which generally stops at the doors of big corporations with legions of lobbyists in Washington, D.C. and state capitals. :shift: