EV Mode to 47MPH

[Pghpete]

Newby here. After doing my due diligence and looking in past posts on this topic (and finding nothing specific to this question), I have a question for you folks. I am in the market for a new fusion (on the Ford A Plan), and I'm wondering about the "up to 47 MPH in the EV mode" claim seen online.

 

If my battery is fully charged, and the FFH is warmed up to proper operating temp, can I make it to work (about 12 miles, max speed limit 45 MPH) solely on the EV mode? I understand the variables of uphill vs. downhill and level driving, etc., but the prospect of using little or no gas on my daily commute in a really cool looking car is quite appealing!

 

Thanks - Pete

[VonoreTn]

Having about 5K miles on an A-plan FFH, I can tell you it will not run for 12 miles in EV mode at 45 mph. The engine will come on several times to charge the batteries. But the good news is I would expect for that 12 miles you will get over 50 mpg, since 45 is about the optimum speed for fuel economy. My full record of fuel economy is posted elsewhere and based on complete fillup data.

 

But even if you get 50+ mpg going 45 for 12 miles, your full tank mileage will probably be closer to 40 mpg, since you will no doubt include some high speed mileage, where you might get anywhere from 35 to 42 mpg, depending on your AC usage, terrain, and time spent above 70 mph, where the mpg starts to drop off due to the high wind drag.

 

I am happy with my FFH, it is fun to drive, and I have cut my gas fillup stops in half. Used to be every week in my Explorer getting 19-20 mpg, now it's twice a month, with a slightly smaller tank.

 

 

 

If my battery is fully charged, and the FFH is warmed up to proper operating temp, can I make it to work (about 12 miles, max speed limit 45 MPH) solely on the EV mode? I understand the variables of uphill vs. downhill and level driving, etc., but the prospect of using little or no gas on my daily commute in a really cool looking car is quite appealing!

 

Thanks - Pete

[lolder]

Newby here. After doing my due diligence and looking in past posts on this topic (and finding nothing specific to this question), I have a question for you folks. I am in the market for a new fusion (on the Ford A Plan), and I'm wondering about the "up to 47 MPH in the EV mode" claim seen online.

 

If my battery is fully charged, and the FFH is warmed up to proper operating temp, can I make it to work (about 12 miles, max speed limit 45 MPH) solely on the EV mode? I understand the variables of uphill vs. downhill and level driving, etc., but the prospect of using little or no gas on my daily commute in a really cool looking car is quite appealing!

 

Thanks - Pete

 

These are not electric vehicles. All the energy comes from gasoline. The hybrid components are designed to improve the efficiency of the ICE. Depending on speed and accessory (AC, etc.) use, you can only go about 1/2 to 1 1/2 miles in EV mode. The ICE will then start and run for about a 1/2 mile or perhaps more. It will be getting about 30 mpg while moving the car and charging the battery. You can usually not control when or how much the battery charges. That is very precisely controlled by computers to about 1/2 on the gauge. When the car is in EV mode you are getting infinite mpg. (The mpg. computer may then actually be using a 99.9 mpg. number, we're not sure.) The overall mpg over several on/off cycles in this mode is a combination of the two mpg figures. It is not the average. The computer knows the fuel used and distance covered and calculates the mpg. It is not necessarily the average of say 30 mpg and 99.9mpg. It is more related to the ratio of the distances traveled in EV verses ICE modes. It will probably be between 40 and 55 mpg. When the ICE is operating continuously with no battery charging at about 50 mph, the mpg. will be about 50. Small amounts of hills, headwinds, wet roads and heavy AC usage have a big effect when you're getting 50 mpg; about 10 mpg for each, especially wet roads.

The fascination with longer range P-HEVs (plug ins) will quickly fade when their owners get their first monthly electric bills. These cars are here and now!

 

Lee

[rlawson4]

I think people misunderstand the benefit of the EV mode by over-using it. If you deplete the battery to the point the ICE comes on and must re-charge it, you get less MPG. The key is to always have enough power in the battery so that the ICE never has to run at a stop light or while going down hill, etc. When I have followed that formula, my mileage has improved. The other thing I have done to improve mileage is the use as much EV mode as possible in the last mile to mile and a half of my drive home. I like to arrive home with a low battery. I do this because the ICE must run anyway first thing in the morning while the engine warms up. As a result, you may as well use the battery at the end of your day because it will be charged when the ICE warms up in the morning. Just my 2 cents.

[Pghpete]

I think people misunderstand the benefit of the EV mode by over-using it. If you deplete the battery to the point the ICE comes on and must re-charge it, you get less MPG. The key is to always have enough power in the battery so that the ICE never has to run at a stop light or while going down hill, etc. When I have followed that formula, my mileage has improved. The other thing I have done to improve mileage is the use as much EV mode as possible in the last mile to mile and a half of my drive home. I like to arrive home with a low battery. I do this because the ICE must run anyway first thing in the morning while the engine warms up. As a result, you may as well use the battery at the end of your day because it will be charged when the ICE warms up in the morning. Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks guys. I'm going to have to pay more attention to the ad I saw/heard. I guess the FFH can go up to 47 mph in the EV mode, but they didn't say how long it could stay in the EV mode. Kinda tricky. Thanks again.

[Grey]

I made a 100 mile run on county roads with the speed control set for 45 MPH (the posted speed limit). I had a few stop signs and lights, but managed to get 54.1 MPG for the trip. The ICE ran about 1/2 of the time.

[mirak]

The FFH has gotten a lot of great reviews - and they are well deserved - but some of the reviews have over-emphasized the 47 mph EV-only stat. You just can't maintain that for antymeaningful time. But you can cruise for a mile or so in the upper 30s to low 40s, which is pretty impressive.

[captspaulding]

These are not electric vehicles. All the energy comes from gasoline. The hybrid components are designed to improve the efficiency of the ICE. Depending on speed and accessory (AC, etc.) use, you can only go about 1/2 to 1 1/2 miles in EV mode. The ICE will then start and run for about a 1/2 mile or perhaps more. It will be getting about 30 mpg while moving the car and charging the battery. You can usually not control when or how much the battery charges. That is very precisely controlled by computers to about 1/2 on the gauge. When the car is in EV mode you are getting infinite mpg. (The mpg. computer may then actually be using a 99.9 mpg. number, we're not sure.) The overall mpg over several on/off cycles in this mode is a combination of the two mpg figures. It is not the average. The computer knows the fuel used and distance covered and calculates the mpg. It is not necessarily the average of say 30 mpg and 99.9mpg. It is more related to the ratio of the distances traveled in EV verses ICE modes. It will probably be between 40 and 55 mpg. When the ICE is operating continuously with no battery charging at about 50 mph, the mpg. will be about 50. Small amounts of hills, headwinds, wet roads and heavy AC usage have a big effect when you're getting 50 mpg; about 10 mpg for each, especially wet roads.

The fascination with longer range P-HEVs (plug ins) will quickly fade when their owners get their first monthly electric bills. These cars are here and now!

 

Lee

 

I briefly pressed "reset" while in EV mode and it shot to 99.9 for a second for the MPGs. I am still loving the upper 40mpgs im getting on my 4 mile commute to work...lol :) I turned to my wife and said "i feel so much better getting 40 instead of the 11 we got in the jeep..."

[Grey]

We wondered if the ICE would always be on above 47 MPH. So we approached a downward slope grade at 45 in electric mode - foot off the "go" pedal, and at 47 MPH the ICE came on. For me, the optimal sweet spot is 45 MPH. I will have to watch the HEV screen next time I get to run 45 for a long period, just to see if the ICE ever provides propulsion, or just charges the battery pack. Regardless, the ICE seldom sees more than 1,800 RPM which must be very fuel efficient, even if just to charge the battery pack.

[lolder]

The 47 mph figure is determined by the rpm limit of "MG1", the smaller motor/generator. If you floor it, the ICE rpm will soon get to 6000 rpm.

 

Lee

[VonoreTn]

Lee,

 

Excellent post. I agree with or was educated by everything you said. Especially your closing line regarding P-HEV's. I think the Chevy Volt is going to be a relative disappointment to a lot of people. Once you are past the 40 miles electric mode per day, you are going to be disappointed with the power level you have left with a small engine charging batteries and running electric motors, with no option for directly linking the ICE to the drive wheels. It is just an inefficient process, compared to direct drive ICE for over the road driving. I suspect the Volt's delayed release is related to trying to improve the strategy.

 

But for people who will only drive 40 miles per day, and don't mind the $1.50 overnight bill for the electricity, it is significantly cheaper than driving a car that gets 40 mpg, since a gallon of gas is around $2.50. Long term of course, our greedy government is going to raise taxes on electricity, and get the kwh cost up to about 30 cents and and the carrot will be gone. Plus these same people should be buying the Ford Focus 100% electric car with a 100 mile range coming out next year, since it will be much cheaper than a Volt and, have 2.5 times the battery range.

 

 

These are not electric vehicles. All the energy comes from gasoline. ..................

The fascination with longer range P-HEVs (plug ins) will quickly fade when their owners get their first monthly electric bills. These cars are here and now!

 

Lee

[Oman]

What I want to know is the MPG of the volt when the charge runs out. This crud about the EPA allowing them to fake an MPG number is complete crap. The MPG for a full electric should be zero, and there should be a MP/KW rating (miles per kilowatt of charge). Then you could compare them. For a car like the volt it should be three numbers, MP/KW, E-Range, and MPG. That would tell you how far you can go fully charged, how efficient it is in full electric mode, and how much gas it will consume once the charge is depleted.

 

The test the EPA is (reported) to be using for the Volt is completely fabricated - tuned to the specific characteristics of the Volt. Put in a bigger battery and the number shoots to a zillion MPG. I expected more considering how forward thinking and "green" the current admin is supposed to be. Unless we have good, real, honest, understandable measurements for these cars the public will quickly abandon them as quackery.

 

Jon

 

 

 

Lee,

 

Excellent post. I agree with or was educated by everything you said. Especially your closing line regarding P-HEV's. I think the Chevy Volt is going to be a relative disappointment to a lot of people. Once you are past the 40 miles electric mode per day, you are going to be disappointed with the power level you have left with a small engine charging batteries and running electric motors, with no option for directly linking the ICE to the drive wheels. It is just an inefficient process, compared to direct drive ICE for over the road driving. I suspect the Volt's delayed release is related to trying to improve the strategy.

 

But for people who will only drive 40 miles per day, and don't mind the $1.50 overnight bill for the electricity, it is significantly cheaper than driving a car that gets 40 mpg, since a gallon of gas is around $2.50. Long term of course, our greedy government is going to raise taxes on electricity, and get the kwh cost up to about 30 cents and and the carrot will be gone. Plus these same people should be buying the Ford Focus 100% electric car with a 100 mile range coming out next year, since it will be much cheaper than a Volt and, have 2.5 times the battery range.

[junehhan]

What I want to know is the MPG of the volt when the charge runs out. This crud about the EPA allowing them to fake an MPG number is complete crap. The MPG for a full electric should be zero, and there should be a MP/KW rating (miles per kilowatt of charge). Then you could compare them. For a car like the volt it should be three numbers, MP/KW, E-Range, and MPG. That would tell you how far you can go fully charged, how efficient it is in full electric mode, and how much gas it will consume once the charge is depleted.

 

The test the EPA is (reported) to be using for the Volt is completely fabricated - tuned to the specific characteristics of the Volt. Put in a bigger battery and the number shoots to a zillion MPG. I expected more considering how forward thinking and "green" the current admin is supposed to be. Unless we have good, real, honest, understandable measurements for these cars the public will quickly abandon them as quackery.

 

Jon

 

 

Jon, you may want to try to do a quick Google to see if you can turn anything up. I remember vaguely reading an article on Foxnews very late last year that detailed the fuel economy projections for the Volt. The article mentioned a source that I can't remember now that talked about how the Volt would get around 35mpg or so average once the charge completely runs out.

[lolder]

I expect the Volt to get an "equivalent" mpg of over 50. Read this about a recent test drive: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/automobiles/autoreviews/22-chevy-volt.html.

Once the ICE is on it may suffer from poorer acceleration and high speed hill climbing but maybe not. These are transient events that the battery may accommodate even after the ICE starts. The main concern is the Lithium Ion battery durability. Most people wish them success. The price tag is a hindrance, even with the Fusion.

 

Lee

[akirby]

I expect the Volt to get an "equivalent" mpg of over 50. Read this about a recent test drive: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/automobiles/autoreviews/22-chevy-volt.html.

Once the ICE is on it may suffer from poorer acceleration and high speed hill climbing but maybe not. These are transient events that the battery may accommodate even after the ICE starts. The main concern is the Lithium Ion battery durability. Most people wish them success. The price tag is a hindrance, even with the Fusion.

 

Lee

 

I believe the fuel economy estimates on the Volt were from GM using the EPA cycle - not from the EPA itself.

[bdrool]

I don't know how you could mathmatically compute this, there are way to many variables to consider. The EPA testing is accomplished under very stringent guidelines. All I can say is I'm going 600 to 650 miles on a fillup, 15 mile drives, and temps in the 30's. Last summer I was going around 700 miles on a fillup. Now while you contemplate what is right or wrong, I KNOW what I am averaging with a combination of the ICE and EV in a vehicle that is around 3700 lbs. That in itself is impressive...And that is why the FFH is the BEST.

[bdrool]

Sorry, I somehow missed the quotes. I was only answering those that are questioning the EPA...

[Oman]

The problem with the EPA cycle is that it assumes that the energy comes from fuel contained in the vehicle. In the Volt there are two energy sources and the "G" in MPG only measures one source of energy. Therefore how can the cycle be adapted - it simply can not be. The output number of the cycle itself is only a partial measurement of the input. That's why it is by necessity a complete fabrication. Since the Volt has two inputs there must be two outputs from any valid testing system.

 

Jon

 

 

I believe the fuel economy estimates on the Volt were from GM using the EPA cycle - not from the EPA itself.

[rfruth]

Corse the Volt is propelled only by its electric motor. There is a gasoline engine onboard, but its sole job is to turn a generator that produces electricity. EV only

[akirby]

The problem with the EPA cycle is that it assumes that the energy comes from fuel contained in the vehicle. In the Volt there are two energy sources and the "G" in MPG only measures one source of energy. Therefore how can the cycle be adapted - it simply can not be. The output number of the cycle itself is only a partial measurement of the input. That's why it is by necessity a complete fabrication. Since the Volt has two inputs there must be two outputs from any valid testing system.

 

Jon

 

Correct. This isn't a problem with regular hybrids because they don't have electrical input (fuel). But plug-in hybrids will require a totally different measurement.

 

My point was that the EPA wasn't doing the test for the Volt - GM was. And I don't believe the EPA has said how they will measure the VOLT's EPA mileage when it hits production.

[Milan_OH]

My point was that the EPA wasn't doing the test for the Volt - GM was. And I don't believe the EPA has said how they will measure the VOLT's EPA mileage when it hits production.

 

 

If you remember a few months ago, GM announced preliminary 'MPG' in the upper 200s. BS?...maybe not. Imagine the Volt has 1 gallon of gas on board and a full charge. You drive 40 miles (or more, assuming the gen set will maintain a charge level to operate in town..for instance) until the battery is depleted, stop, let the generator charge for 30 minutes (per the article above) and repeat the cycle until the gallon of fuel is depleted. Therefore, your MPG is easily computed. Nobody said they were contiguous miles.......

[akirby]

If you remember a few months ago, GM announced preliminary 'MPG' in the upper 200s. BS?...maybe not. Imagine the Volt has 1 gallon of gas on board and a full charge. You drive 40 miles (or more, assuming the gen set will maintain a charge level to operate in town..for instance) until the battery is depleted, stop, let the generator charge for 30 minutes (per the article above) and repeat the cycle until the gallon of fuel is depleted. Therefore, your MPG is easily computed. Nobody said they were contiguous miles.......

 

Exactly, but don't you see the problem? You had to PLUG IN and CHARGE the batteries first. That is fuel just like gasoline - just a different kind. Somebody has to produce the electricity and you have to pay for it. It's not free.

 

Look at it this way. If a golf cart can go 5 miles on 0 gallons of gas, is that better?

Edited December 1, 2009 by akirby

[Milan_OH]

Exactly, but don't you see the problem? You had to PLUG IN and CHARGE the batteries first. That is fuel just like gasoline - just a different kind. Somebody has to produce the electricity and you have to pay for it. It's not free.

 

Look at it this way. If a golf cart can go 5 miles on 0 gallons of gas, is that better?

 

 

Yes, that's true, so let's start with a depleted battery. You let the ICE provide the initial charge...how much fuel to run 30m....don't know, maybe a 1/4 gallon, so we can do 4 total cycles....still a ridiculous 160 MPG.

[akirby]

Yes, that's true, so let's start with a depleted battery. You let the ICE provide the initial charge...how much fuel to run 30m....don't know, maybe a 1/4 gallon, so we can do 4 total cycles....still a ridiculous 160 MPG.

 

Running the ICE to charge the engine enough to run 40 miles will most certainly take more than 1/4 gallon. Think about how long you have to run a normal engine just to charge a small 12V battery after it dies.

 

That would make the test more valid but it also defeats the purpose of the plug in hybrid. Until they can equate electricity and gasoline the MPG claims are just marketing foo-foo.

[Milan_OH]

Running the ICE to charge the engine enough to run 40 miles will most certainly take more than 1/4 gallon. Think about how long you have to run a normal engine just to charge a small 12V battery after it dies.

 

That would make the test more valid but it also defeats the purpose of the plug in hybrid. Until they can equate electricity and gasoline the MPG claims are just marketing foo-foo.

 

mmm, I'll work on that tomorrow. A gen set can run for hours on a gallon because it's optimized for a steady state RPM/load. The Volt is a 1L 3 cylinder ICE....the info should be 'out there', (gal/hr) then, I could run the numbers. Kilowatt/hr can convert to $ for the overnight charge cycle, now we have a common denominator of $/40 miles and can normalized against MPG.

 

Bottom line is, GM announced the 'headline grabber' numbers in the midst of the bailout debacle. If they blow it, they'll lose any remaining cred they have, I don't think they'd risk the embarrassment if it weren't true.