I "REALLY" hate cold weather, What to expect in MPG.

[acdii]

Coolant flows in one direction determined by the pump, Water circulates around the engine block and head until the thermostat, which is located at the highest point of the cooling system on the engine itself, reaches its opening point, at which time coolant will flow past it into the radiator. Up until that point the coolant in the radiator is static. The expansion tank, AKA Coolant reservoir, is at the very top of the cooling system, mainly so that air in the system can escape and not get trapped somewhere creating a hot spot. Coolant doesnt flow through this tank like in the rest of the system, but does heat up since heat rises.

 

Since I have not seen a flow chart of the hybrid cooling system, I dont know its path, but on a conventional system, heat does not back flow into the radiator from the engine unless the thermostat is broken, and then you have more things to worry about than a warm expansion tank, like blown head gaskets for a start. When the T-stat opens coolant flows past it into the top of the radiator, depending on type of radiator, top down or side flow, the hot coolant flows through the fin tubes and gets cooled down quickly, with the cool coolant flowing back into the engine from the bottom. That is how all cooling systems work(Hybrid maybe too??).

 

There is also a bypass that routes coolant around the thermostat, its job is to equalize pressures in the block so coolant can flow. Without it coolant would not circulate properly. It is not very big, usually a 3/8" hose is all it is and not very long either. It would take a very long time for hot coolant to get to the radiator through this line, and most of them are at the pump.

 

The theory of coolant back flowing from the ICE doesn't hold up based on the basic design principles. One, coolant doesn't move backwards, two heat rises, and three, coolant is moving through the heat exchanger in the cabin where a good majority of the heat is being extracted from. The only thing that would heat up the coolant is the thermostat opening at some point. Based on the readings I have seen and what HB has reported, it should have not opened, however, what we don't know is the relation of the thermostat to the temperature probe, if they are in the same housing, then, it should never open, but if they are far enough apart and the t-stat is higher , then it is possible it is opening as the temp can be high enough to trigger it.

 

If we look back to when the Fusion was first sold, there was a recall involving the cooling system. It was corrected via a "software" update. This tells me the cooling system is computer controlled, and I go back to my theory that it uses valves to control water flow, and the PCM update had made adjustments to the cooling system too. Without a complete teardown of the cooling system, it is all speculation. I do feel that there is room for improvement too, This morning it was -26, the ICE worked hard to keep up with cabin heat demands, so the radiator should have never seen any coolant flow, but it was too damned cold for me to open the hood and look(didn't even occur to me to do it either until now). The temp gauge on the dash told me the whole story, it was well below its normal halfway mark, and dropped quite often so I had very little EV. It spent a good portion about 1/4 up the gauge. This is with both grills being covered too.

 

 

Weather channel said -12, they lied.

 

 

It was even colder than what I took a picture of further down the road. Can't wait until Monday when it is supposed to be colder than -12, makes me wonder, will it be -35? I knew it was damned colder than -12 when I had nosicles walking from my garage to the car port 15' away. I knew it was damned cold when the condensation from the furnace was freezing at the pipe and not on the pile of ice under it. I have never seen it do that, and we have had cold weather before.

Edited January 3, 2014 by acdii

[hybridbear]

That was your temp this morning? We're warmer today, 8 above zero, but with strong south winds the windchill is still -10F. The governor already cancelled school Monday for the entire state because of the cold. I'm not looking forward to Monday...

[acdii]

Yep it was that cold by me. NOT looking forward to Monday. If it was only supposed to be -12 by me and it was more than twice that, then -40 sounds way too cold for me.

[ptjones]

Hybridbear I got an idea for easy test to raise WT by stuffing some foam between oil pan and bottom cover to insulate it. Then if you needed to you could easily remove it. I believe there is enough room in ICE compartment to reach down and stuff it in. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

Hybridbear I got an idea for easy test to raise WT by stuffing some foam between oil pan and bottom cover to insulate it. Then if you needed to you could easily remove it. I believe there is enough room in ICE compartment to reach down and stuff it in. :)

 

Paul

Thanks Paul. I will have to look into it.

[aschulz261]

I absolutely do NOT miss those winter temps. I was born and raised in Wisconsin and vividly recall the depths temps can be there. I spent 1 ridiculous winter in Texas (panhandle area) as well. There was a wekk there where windchills reached into the -triple digits. When you realize how absurd that sounds, all you have to do is look to the north from there and realize there isn't a single tree between where you are in Texas and the North Pole!

 

It is seasons like what you are experiencing that make me realize that the move I made to Hawaii was a REALLY good decision. I hope you can appreciate that last night I actually had to close the windows (the first time since moving here) because I woke up to rain coming in and hitting me in the face.

[DeeCee]

I think this cold weather thread has jinxed us all! It is getting frigid everywhere. Even getting down to single digits here in south central Arkansas. Wish you guys would keep the cold stuff up there where it belongs! Stuffed my grill with pipe foam to see if it will help.

[acdii]

Snowing here like a SOB! Took the car in for the oil change and stuff. They are going to replace the wiper motor too, so one is on order. The drive home was slippery, and the drifts were getting pretty bad. Damn near went off the road, some reason the tires are not as good as they were on the other one, even though same brand and model. Looks like I will be driving the Flex more, the Hankooks have pretty good traction.

[corncobs]

I might cough up the cash for a set of winter tires when I read all of this crazyness going on. I don't wanna loose my brand new car over a 1000 bucks.

[hybridbear]

I might cough up the cash for a set of winter tires when I read all of this craziness going on. I don't wanna loose my brand new car over a 1000 bucks.

I think that's wise...winter tires also don't really cost that much in the long run since you extend the life of your summer tires. The real cost is just the rims and the TPMS sensors. TireRack has a package with 16 inch wheels, 205/65R16 Dunlop Winter Maxx Blackwall tires & TPMS sensors for $728 plus shipping mounted & balanced. Shipping to MN adds another $135 so it's about $863 in total. I wonder if Discount Tire could beat that and then I wouldn't have to change them myself... The thing for us is that we drive the Prius primarily in the winter since it's a lease and the FFH is owned and we want the FFH to be protected from winter. Since the Prius is just a 3 year lease there isn't much value in buying winter tires for it as we won't have it anymore in 33 months. It would be hard to justify spending on Prius winter tires unless we knew that our next car after the Prius could use the same winter tires...

[corncobs]

I just looked at TireRack and I would go with a 17" aluminum rims and standard tire size 225/55 R17. This set would cost me about $1200 mounted and shipped.

 

The FFH is way too nice to not ride in style even with winter tires. ;)

[B25Nut]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere, but shouldn't those drivers who have 38+ psi in their tires reduce them to 34 psi for driving in the snow? In the last 12 months we have only had less than 3 inches of rain so I have no experience in this area.

[acdii]

Irony of Irony. All the hoopla over the COLD weather to happen Today. It was 7 degrees COLDER on Friday morning! Granted todays highs will be much lower, but still, -26 Friday morning, and only -18 this morning. :)

 

As for snow tires, since my Flex handles snow and ice so well, I will just drive that instead. $1200 buys a lot of gas. I had given some thought to ST for the Fusion after Saturdays drive home in the snow, but after driving the Flex in it, it handled it like it was on rails. (as long as I stay out of the turbos!)

[hybridbear]

Official Ford response from Ashley relating to the thermostat:

There is an operating range and will vary the temperature depending on conditions. But usually will range from about 80-100 Celsius (176-212 Fahrenheit). Parts specifications about the thermostat is not something we can provide.

 

I figured I'd post it here too since in this thread we've talked about the cooling system a lot

[Kaleido]

+1 on the PCM update. My gas mileage with the FFH is better than it was this time last year, before the update.

Last year I got 39/40/41 mpg before the update, this year I'm getting 36/37/38 mpg for the same time of year and after the update. Not much difference.

[ptjones]

My FORD contact said thermostat is fully open at 202*F and I believe it is stamped on the Thermostat. BTW the thermostat is a mechanical device and isn't operated by the computer. :)

 

Paul

[jmellen]

In trying to understand how the ICE comes on in cold weather I have observed the following three times in two days. Today my coolant temp was 68 degrees C as reported by ET, my battery was 90 percent charged, I had the HVAC off and was coasting on a slight downhill with my foot off the accelerator. The middle LCD reported that the ICE was on due to acceleration. How could this be? I could understand 'normal operation' perhaps but why 'acceleration'?

[jeff_h]

Last year I got 39/40/41 mpg before the update, this year I'm getting 36/37/38 mpg for the same time of year and after the update. Not much difference.

 

Temperature sure makes quite a difference with these - I am now tracking my daily 60-mile commute MPG with the Energi: Yesterday morning 77 MPG @ 42 degrees, this morning 57 MPG @ 5 degrees. Same route both days. Afternoon drives closer in temps, 34 degrees and 21 degrees, both days 62 MPG coming home.

[Riggo]

 

Temperature sure makes quite a difference with these - I am now tracking my daily 60-mile commute MPG with the Energi: Yesterday morning 77 MPG @ 42 degrees, this morning 57 MPG @ 5 degrees. Same route both days. Afternoon drives closer in temps, 34 degrees and 21 degrees, both days 62 MPG coming home.

 

Batteries don't do as well in this cold...

 

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/173256-why-do-electric-cars-suck-in-cold-weather

[hytibill]

Hybrids just don't do well in cold weather, especially on short trips. My commute is 12 miles each way, and the problem is that I spend the first ten minutes on clogged local streets where I can't use the ICE. Therefore, if I want to heat the cabin, I have to run the ICE even when the battery is full, which lowers my fuel mileage. For those who make really short trips, like 6-7 miles, the Energi would be the better vehicle in terms of fuel efficiency. You'll be on battery power most of the time.

 

Sometimes, on the way home, traffic will be very light, and I can start my trip off with a spirited burst of ICE usage to get up to speed as well as warm up the engine. I can get 44 mpg on those trips. Otherwise, it's just mid-thirties. However, things can be worse. I was in a livery taxi that averaged 18 mpg. The driver had the fuel efficiency for his last few tanks on the display, and none was past 18 mpg. This was a four cylinder sedan. I was kind of surprised that it got such horrific mileage but I guess hybrids are more efficient than regular cars on most regimes.

[hybridbear]

Hybrids just don't do well in cold weather, especially on short trips. My commute is 12 miles each way, and the problem is that I spend the first ten minutes on clogged local streets where I can't use the ICE. Therefore, if I want to heat the cabin, I have to run the ICE even when the battery is full, which lowers my fuel mileage. For those who make really short trips, like 6-7 miles, the Energi would be the better vehicle in terms of fuel efficiency. You'll be on battery power most of the time.

 

Sometimes, on the way home, traffic will be very light, and I can start my trip off with a spirited burst of ICE usage to get up to speed as well as warm up the engine. I can get 44 mpg on those trips. Otherwise, it's just mid-thirties. However, things can be worse. I was in a livery taxi that averaged 18 mpg. The driver had the fuel efficiency for his last few tanks on the display, and none was past 18 mpg. This was a four cylinder sedan. I was kind of surprised that it got such horrific mileage but I guess hybrids are more efficient than regular cars on most regimes.

A hybrid in taxi service might get only 30 MPG but that's still a lot better than the MPG they'd get in a conventional car. Have you tried grille blocking? It does help.

[ptjones]

Hybrids just don't do well in cold weather, especially on short trips. My commute is 12 miles each way, and the problem is that I spend the first ten minutes on clogged local streets where I can't use the ICE. Therefore, if I want to heat the cabin, I have to run the ICE even when the battery is full, which lowers my fuel mileage. For those who make really short trips, like 6-7 miles, the Energi would be the better vehicle in terms of fuel efficiency. You'll be on battery power most of the time.

 

Sometimes, on the way home, traffic will be very light, and I can start my trip off with a spirited burst of ICE usage to get up to speed as well as warm up the engine. I can get 44 mpg on those trips. Otherwise, it's just mid-thirties. However, things can be worse. I was in a livery taxi that averaged 18 mpg. The driver had the fuel efficiency for his last few tanks on the display, and none was past 18 mpg. This was a four cylinder sedan. I was kind of surprised that it got such horrific mileage but I guess hybrids are more efficient than regular cars on most regimes.

I have started using a NAPA oil pan heater and have seen my MPG go up by 2+MPG and would be very helpful in your situation. I plug it in at home and work. Grill Covers help a lot too, 2-4mpg this time of year. :)

 

Paul

[JonE]

Just thought I'd chime in with some more Minnesota hybrid Fusion observations. I bought my car last March and had increasing lifetime mileage until about October (maxed briefly at 46MPG lifetime). Since October that lifetime mileage has been declining. Now it is about 43.8mpg lifetime and the car has almost 12,000 miles on it.

When I take a look at mileage and compare tanks, and trips (I, like many, drive the same route to work (17miles one way) everyday and this makes comparisons in temperature very valid), now in the winter months, especially December and January have been very cold here, I am averaging about 10mpg less on my trips and tanks. There still are occasional trips to work, say, where it may have been above 20-25degree F and I was able to eke out about 40-43mpg, but, overall, I'd say the reduction for winter months so far is about 10mpg. I have also observed that perhaps the biggest factor of all is heating the cabin, the 2nd being having to have the ICE at proper operating tempurature, thus, the ICE comes on much more often than the warmer months. In other words, if I am bundled up and can stand driving without heat and use the seat heaters, I can get 4-6mpg better than warming the cabin to about 68-70degrees. Not much can be done about simply having to have the ICE up to operating tempurature, it seems to be similar to the 2-4mpg deficit I used to get in my 3 Series BMW in winter vs. summer.

Interestingly, I haven't noticed much MPG difference (maybe 1-2mpg) using the block heater, although, I can get heat in the cabin quicker...

[hybridbear]

Just thought I'd chime in with some more Minnesota hybrid Fusion observations. I bought my car last March and had increasing lifetime mileage until about October (maxed briefly at 46MPG lifetime). Since October that lifetime mileage has been declining. Now it is about 43.8mpg lifetime and the car has almost 12,000 miles on it.

When I take a look at mileage and compare tanks, and trips (I, like many, drive the same route to work (17miles one way) everyday and this makes comparisons in temperature very valid), now in the winter months, especially December and January have been very cold here, I am averaging about 10mpg less on my trips and tanks. There still are occasional trips to work, say, where it may have been above 20-25degree F and I was able to eke out about 40-43mpg, but, overall, I'd say the reduction for winter months so far is about 10mpg. I have also observed that perhaps the biggest factor of all is heating the cabin, the 2nd being having to have the ICE at proper operating tempurature, thus, the ICE comes on much more often than the warmer months. In other words, if I am bundled up and can stand driving without heat and use the seat heaters, I can get 4-6mpg better than warming the cabin to about 68-70degrees. Not much can be done about simply having to have the ICE up to operating tempurature, it seems to be similar to the 2-4mpg deficit I used to get in my 3 Series BMW in winter vs. summer.

Interestingly, I haven't noticed much MPG difference (maybe 1-2mpg) using the block heater, although, I can get heat in the cabin quicker...

Cool to see another FFH owner in MN!! Have you tried blocking the grille? It helps a lot with keeping the ICE warm.

[acdii]

Dont forget that winter fuel blend. It also tends to reduce MPG. Right now my HyTi is pretty consistent at 38 MPG. Unless I hot dog it, or traffic really sucks, thats what I hit, 38-39 MPG. That's about 4 MPG better than the 2010 did in sub-zero temps.Above 30* I am hitting 40, but it hasn't been above 30 in weeks.