Battery saver message

[Osofast]

Just an update, I was having the battery saver message almost everytime the car was driven regardless of time and mileage. Since January when the car completley failed to start becouse it had another issue.

That issue required them to reprogram both the body control module and the radio. ( you can read about that in the thread about ford ruining wife's birthday)

I have not had the BS message since those 2 things were done. Maybe there is something to one or both of those procedures, relating to the message.

[tr7driver]

I have a 2014 ti hy. I have only seen the battery saver message once, the day after I brought it home from the dealer and I was programming the MFT/sync. In late January the car sat for 12 days while I was away. It started right up, no problems. So far, so good. It gets driven about 10 miles/day, but often sits at the rental car lot for a couple of days every other week when my wife travels for work. I'm surprised the short trips haven't triggered this event. I'm not sure if the 12V battery is the original. When I did a hard reset on the car about a month ago, the battery didn't appear to be properly installed, so I'm guessing it was replaced before I purchased the car, but I have no proof one way or the other.

[Ric]

Car came home today. Dealer needed to contact Engineers at Ford to help diagnose the problem. Replaced the shifter assembly. So far so good, although I usually get the BS messages after a week or two. Fourth time at the dealership for this issue. Hope it worked this time. Time will tell. Not really optimistic.

[acdii]

The hard reset and programming does make sense. The computers keep a table of values, and if a value starts out at one setting, and suddenly changes to another, it can skew the entire table. Will be interesting to see if the hard reset resolved the problem.

 

For those still getting the BSM, what is the voltage at the battery when it occurs?

 

The first FFHSE had these come up every so often, but my HyTi has been trouble free, so it could be a Job1 bug.

[DeeCee]

No battery saver message yet on my Job 1, knock on wood.

[Barsoom]

My 2013 FFH 12v battery went dead again last week. I left the car at the airport for 6 days, and it was dead when I returned. This was after a 45 minute highway drive to the airport.

 

Everything turned on instantly (lights, etc), when the airport service person hooked up a battery pack, and the car started right up.

 

I'm still getting the battery saver message every time I shut off the car (except for immediately after my 45 minute drive home).

 

Whatever Ford suggested that my dealer service technicians try, it was clearly a blind shot in the dark. I'm back in touch with Ashley and my local dealer for next steps.

 

FYI to acdii... I measured my battery voltage under no load the next day. It was 11.88 volts. I'm now carrying a small multimeter in my car for the next time. I wonder if the battery still has a charge, but something in the circuitry is switching off? How else to explain absolutely no response, but everything instantly lights up once an external battery is switched on? Maybe my battery drops below a minimum threshold?

 

Also, it seems that my radio did not lose its programming, but did have the sound setting reset. Also, some vehicle settings (remote start settings, etc) were reset. I also lost my EV+ memory. I'm assuming that the car also lost its driver table settings. Keyless entry performance is also still spotty.

[hybridbear]

I now have a PID that allows me to display the 12V battery SOC. As of a couple days ago the 12V SOC was ~47%. Now it's up to 62%. When it was 49% or lower I would see the BS message within 30 seconds of turning off the car. At 60+% I can sit for 45+ seconds without getting the BS message. The DC2DC converter runs at a fairly constant 0.3 kW when there's no load on the battery except having the car on. Adding headlights makes the DC2DC kW increase to 0.5. When the 12V SOC was under 50% the car seemed to be more aggressively charging it because then my DC2DC kW was never less than 0.8.

[Easy Rider]

47% is REAL low for a 12 V car battery.

In many applications, that would be considered "dead".

 

I wonder what causes it to get that low........and how accurate your indicator is.

(What's a PID?)

 

At the very least, it sounds to me like you need to give the battery a good external charge, like with a small smart charger

and if that doesn't change things, I'd think it's time for a new battery.

[larryh]

One needs to collect measurements over a long period of time to determine a baseline for SOC, i.e. what is the normal expected range of SOC. I have observed that that average SOC for the 12 V battery is about 70% for the Fusion Energi. See the following link for PIDs:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs

[hybridbear]

47% is REAL low for a 12 V car battery.

In many applications, that would be considered "dead".

 

I wonder what causes it to get that low........and how accurate your indicator is.

(What's a PID?)

 

At the very least, it sounds to me like you need to give the battery a good external charge, like with a small smart charger

and if that doesn't change things, I'd think it's time for a new battery.

I have had no 12V battery issues and have no plans to charge it externally. The car is designed to charge it automatically. The 12V battery is not used when the car is on, all accesory power is supplied by the DC2DC converter directly from the HVB. The A/C pulls power directly from the HVB. When the 12V SOC was low the car was charging it more aggressively as I noted above. These cars aren't like any conventional car on the road.

 

The indicator is perfectly accurate because it's designed by Ford. It is the parameter that they built in to the vehicle when they designed it.

[Easy Rider]

But what IS a PID ???

 

And I thought that you were getting some kind of battery warning messages or alarms.

 

Maybe I don't understand the situation properly but 12 V car batteries were NOT designed to be operated around 50% capacity all the time.

 

And the 12 V battery IS used when the car is running. It provides a measure of filtering and load leveling for the DC converter.

 

I KNOW that the system charges it when the car is on but that doesn't explain WHY it gets down to ~ 50% SOC.

In any other car that would NOT be normal. I don't understand why you think it would be different for a hybrid.

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

In the short time I've had my Fusion, I have connected my smart charger to it twice, both times after it had been sitting for several days.

In both cases, the "charged" light came on after only about 30 minutes or less. Since it's max. charging capacity is only 1.5 amps, that means that the battery was pretty close to 100% charge both times.

 

P.S. I got a little chuckle out of your "perfectly accurate because designed by Ford" comment. Are you sure it wasn't Microsoft ?? :)

Edited May 25, 2014 by Easy Rider

[murphy]

The "starter" 12 volt battery that comes with the car is the wrong battery for the car. A starter battery is designed to stay at full charge most of the time. It supplies a high current short duration burst of energy to turn over a starter motor and them is immediately charged back to full. This car does not have a starter motor. Completely discharging a starter battery will usually destroy it because of the way the plates are designed. They worked fine in the old cars where the radio was the only electronics in the car. Today's cars are loaded with electronics that are always on. If the car is driven every day, for at least 20 miles, the battery will stay charged. However if the car sits in the garage for days at a time, like mine does, the electronics slowly discharge the battery. That is why my car now has an expensive AGM battery instead of the one that came with the car. AGM batteries have a plate design that can tolerate low discharge levels. I occasionally charge it with a 12 volt charger, that knows how to charge an AGM battery, when it has been sitting for a week.

[corncobs]

I wouldn't say that this is true for all FFHs especially mine. She was sitting for 2.5 month in my garage without being driven and turned right on when I came back and I didn't see the BS message either.

[murphy]

Maybe we need to compare the option list for your car with the option list for a car that has the problem. Maybe one of the options is power hungry.

[corncobs]

SE luxury package with MFT and backup camera nothing special on top of that. No driver assist package or Nav.

 

I'm not using a USB drive (SD card) and the 12V to USB plug was unplugged.

 

What else could be drawing from the LVB?

[hybridbear]

The "starter" 12 volt battery that comes with the car is the wrong battery for the car. A starter battery is designed to stay at full charge most of the time. It supplies a high current short duration burst of energy to turn over a starter motor and them is immediately charged back to full. This car does not have a starter motor. Completely discharging a starter battery will usually destroy it because of the way the plates are designed. They worked fine in the old cars where the radio was the only electronics in the car. Today's cars are loaded with electronics that are always on. If the car is driven every day, for at least 20 miles, the battery will stay charged. However if the car sits in the garage for days at a time, like mine does, the electronics slowly discharge the battery. That is why my car now has an expensive AGM battery instead of the one that came with the car. AGM batteries have a plate design that can tolerate low discharge levels. I occasionally charge it with a 12 volt charger, that knows how to charge an AGM battery, when it has been sitting for a week.

I am curious to see what happens with my 12V SOC over time since we don't drive the car every day. Even now when we're driving it more in the nice weather it will still only be driven a maximum of 3 days per week.

 

But what IS a PID ???

 

And I thought that you were getting some kind of battery warning messages or alarms.

 

Maybe I don't understand the situation properly but 12 V car batteries were NOT designed to be operated around 50% capacity all the time.

 

And the 12 V battery IS used when the car is running. It provides a measure of filtering and load leveling for the DC converter.

 

I KNOW that the system charges it when the car is on but that doesn't explain WHY it gets down to ~ 50% SOC.

In any other car that would NOT be normal. I don't understand why you think it would be different for a hybrid.

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

In the short time I've had my Fusion, I have connected my smart charger to it twice, both times after it had been sitting for several days.

In both cases, the "charged" light came on after only about 30 minutes or less. Since it's max. charging capacity is only 1.5 amps, that means that the battery was pretty close to 100% charge both times.

 

P.S. I got a little chuckle out of your "perfectly accurate because designed by Ford" comment. Are you sure it wasn't Microsoft ?? :)

The wikipedia link above explains what a PID is. It's a way of accessing the sensors built in to the car by the manufacturer for monitoring what's going on with the car.

 

I have occasionally seen the BS message, but I have never had a dead battery issue where the car was dead. The BS message has not been a frequent problem and thus I don't consider it an issue. In the winter we were only driving the FFH about once a week, and then for only about 15-20 miles in that day when we would drive it. Now that nice weather is here we tend to leave the Prius at home and drive the FFH multiple times a week. I expect that the 12V SOC is thus low because of how much the car sits, and how many short trips we take. The 12V gets drained by whatever you do when the car is off. So unlocking the car and turning on the lights, sitting in the car listening to the radio after it's off, rolling the windows up/down when it's off, all those things will lower the SOC of the 12V. For the amount of short trips we take we do those things a lot, especially the windows. I almost always get to my destination and shut the car off and then look back and realize that the back windows are down and that I need to put them up. So then they go up with the car off with electricity from the 12V battery instead of from the DC2DC converter. Operating the windows when the car is on causes a noticeable spike in the power from the DC2DC converter as window motors take a lot of electricity.

 

This car is unlike any other car. As Murphy explained, the way that this car uses its 12V battery is completely different from other vehicles.

 

The 12V perhaps provides load leveling for the DC2DC converter in that how many amps it receives may vary, but it is never discharged while the DC2DC converter is operational.

 

If you don't trust the car to monitor itself then perhaps you are smarter than the teams of engineers who designed the car and maybe you should scratch-build your own car then. I am not just making up data, I'm accessing the sensors that Ford built in to the car to monitor what's going on to make sure that it runs smoothly. If you don't feel that this data is accurate, then maybe you should build your own car with data that you feel is accurate.

[Easy Rider]

 

The wikipedia link above explains what a PID is. It's a way of accessing the sensors built in to the car by the manufacturer for monitoring what's going on with the car.

 

I have occasionally seen the BS message, but I have never had a dead battery issue where the car was dead.

 

This car is unlike any other car. As Murphy explained, the way that this car uses its 12V battery is completely different from other vehicles.

 

First, I don't see any Wiki link. Is this really just the "enhanced" version of a scan tool ?

 

Secondly, while the design of the overall car is different, the battery is still just a battery.

I've been an Electronics Engineering Tech. for about 45 years now so what I am about to say is not idle speculation.

 

A 12 V car battery is NOT designed to sit at 50% charge for long periods. It just isn't. The newer AGMs tolerate that a little better but not much.

 

So I'm pretty sure that you seeing that occasional "BS" message, coupled with the fact that your are seeing a SOC reading lower than 90% for long

periods of time really indicates that you have a problem brewing. All of that is not normal.

 

If you refuse to attach a battery tender during long periods on non-use, it's likely that you will have short battery life and repeated failures.

 

Right NOW your battery has probably been neglected long enough that it needs to be replaced because total failure is probably not far away.......especially without a supplemental charge every now and then.

 

And I am not throwing rocks at you or Ford either. The 12 V battery is a weak spot on a LOT of hybrids......and with a lot of owners too.

 

Ignore this advice if you wish. Your car, your battery and your time.

Others may find the information useful even if you don't.

[larryh]

I have recorded the SOC of the 12 V battery each morning when I start my Fusion Energi for over a month. It has ranged from 55% to 84%. The average is 69%. I have not had any problems with 12 V battery for the year I have owned the car (except when the car fails to charge the 12 V when the car is turned on and plugged into the charger, but the charger is turned off). So I assume that the 12 V battery is working normally.

 

Currently, the SOC is 55%. After opening the door and prior to starting the car, I see the car is consuming about 13 amps of current from the battery and the voltage is 11.7 V. Immediately after starting the car, the DC to DC converter is enabled and provides power for the car. Now 32 amps of current is being supplied to the 12 V battery and the voltage is 14.4 V. Gradually the current to the battery drops to about 12 amps after 2 minutes. I assume the car is charging the 12 V battery. Once the car is done charging the 12 V battery, the current drops to 0 amps and remains there until I turn off the car.

 

After turning off the car, the current draw from the 12 V battery starts at about 13 amps and falls to 5 amps after 2 minutes. The voltage starts at 12.7 volts and falls to 12.2 V. After that the ECU turns off and I can't collect any more measurements. So I don't know how much current is being drawn from the 12 V battery after that.

 

The car reports the battery is a Varta 43Ah 390CCA T4 Case battery. I assume Varta is the manufacturer?

 

Note that the 12 V battery will continue to function until the voltage falls below 6 V. The car will issue a low battery warning when the voltage drops below 9 V (The SOC is far below 50% when it does that). See the following post: "http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/1258-the-bxt-99r-390-is-a-standard-car-battery/?p=11181".

 

With the Fusion Energi, I have the car plugged in all night long. The car has plenty of opportunity to charge the 12 V battery during the night to whatever level it sees fit (I have observed it continuing to charge the 12 V for up to two hours after it has finished charging the HVB. But it only does that on very rare occasions.). Apparently, the preferred SOC is around 70%.

Edited May 26, 2014 by larryh

[Easy Rider]

 

Note that the 12 V battery will continue to function until the voltage falls below 6 V. The car will issue a low battery warning when the voltage drops below 9 V (The SOC is far below 50% when it does that).

 

Good post but some CRITICAL pieces of information are missing.

 

The little 12 V battery is ***NOT*** designed or intended to be left at a ~ 50% SOC for long periods, even just overnight repeatedly can be bad for it's health.

 

While the battery itself might "continue to function" down to 6 volts, you get the low battery alert because the electronics it feeds will NOT operate reliably below 9 volts, maybe not even that low.

 

IF you are seeing a SOC below 70% very often you should be mildly concerned because your battery's life is being reduced.

 

If as you described, the DC converter recovers the battery to a full charge fairly soon after starting out and KEEPS it there while driving, as it should do........how do you figure that the SOC gets back down to 70%.....or even 50% ?????

 

If the "two minute draw" that you have observed drags it down below 70% from fully charged on a regular basis, a new battery is probably going to be necessary in the near future.

 

The "preferred" SOC for the 12V battery is 100%, from the battery's perspective.

 

If the system is engineered to purposely let it range from 50 to 70%, then the design is defective.

 

I suspect that the target really is something like 90% and the readings you are seeing are because of a defect in the charging circuit OR the battery is just getting weak.

It is not unusual for a new car to leave the lot with a weak 12 V battery, especially if you bought it late in the model year.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Easy Rider

[larryh]

I took delivery of the car immediately after it arrived at the dealer, within a month of the build date. At 9 Volts, things started shutting down. At 6 Volts, not much worked on the car. The displays were all dark. There was not enough power to start the car. However, it was enough for the SOBDM module to turn on and start charging the HVB and 12 V battery as soon as I plugged the car in and then I could start it. When it did start, I was greeted with a barrage of error messages on the displays.

 

The car decided that 55% SOC was too low. After it finished charging the HVB, it decided to continue to charge the 12 V battery for a couple hours until the SOC reached 72%.

 

When I measure the voltage across the 12 V battery after everything has shut down, I get 12.65 V and the battery indicator light shows green. This is what I normally see ever since I bought the car. I can't detect any difference in the way the battery works now vs. how it worked a year ago. I believe the battery is in good condition and working as expected.

 

I will monitor the SOC of the 12 V battery more closely to see what is actually happening.

Edited May 26, 2014 by larryh

[acdii]

Well some misinformation here. First, there is no difference between a regular car and the Hybrid, once the ICE is running. Once the engine is started, the alternator takes over all the duties, same as the DC2DC converter. The only difference between Hybrid and non Hybrid is in Starting. This takes a large draw off the 12v battery, which the alternator quickly puts back into the battery.

 

Both types of cars run off the 12v when the ignition is off, to keep alive the computers memory, and provide accessory power. Here is what I am seeing as abnormal though, in a regular car the alternator will continue to charge until the battery has been fully recharged, where the FFH peters off after a bit. My thinking is the programming on the charge circuit is being too safe, and is mimicking the LiOn charger. The short trips, and lengthy rest periods attribute to low battery SOC. As far the battery, Lead/Acid batteries tend to calcify if not cycled. If kept at peak charge and not drawn down, they eventually lose capacity, but if drawn down and recharged, even if down to 10% they can recover. I have had some batteries that were down to 2 volts and they fully recovered and lasted a few more years. They had to be shock charged a few times before they would take a charge and resume 13 volts.

 

Since we dont know if the battery used in the FFH was designed specifically for the FFH, we really dont know if it is supposed to be a deep cycle or not, yet we do know it doesn't need to be a high CCA battery since it doesnt have to put out 100 amps to crank over an ICE.

[Easy Rider]

 

The car decided that 55% SOC was too low.

Which is EXACTLY what I have been saying too.

 

The concern should be with how and why it GETS that low.

 

It should never happen under normal conditions.

To have the car not function at that point is perfectly normal.

 

Leaving it in ACC for a long time, yes.

Leaving it sitting in the garage for weeks at a time, yes.

Under normal conditions......NO.

[Easy Rider]

As far the battery, Lead/Acid batteries tend to calcify if not cycled. If kept at peak charge and not drawn down, they eventually lose capacity,

 

Close but no cigar. :)

 

There is no calcium involved; it is sulphur and the condition is sulphation.

 

It occurs NOT when the battery is fully charged but when the charge is depleted.

The closer to 0 it gets and the longer it stays there the more damage is done.

 

The longest life is achieved when the charge is kept between 90 and 100%, without over charging.

[larryh]

Today, the car seems to prefer 85% SOC for the 12 V battery. This morning, it began charging the HVB at 1:30 am. It immediately charged the 12 V at the same time to 85% SOC. It finished charging the 12 V battery first, but continued to charge the HVB until 3:40 am. When I left this morning, the 12 V battery SOC was down to 82%. I measured the voltage of the 12 V battery to be 12.75 V with no load. Normally, 12.7+ V is considered 100% SOC. Driving to work, it immediately started charging the 12 V with 13 amps of current. The current gradually dropped to less than 1 amp when 85% SOC was reached and the car then continued to maintain that SOC. As soon as I turned the car off, the car immediately drew 23 amps of current from the battery. I only continued to monitor it for a few seconds after that. I suspect that 85% SOC is the max it is going to charge the 12 V battery to. The car seems to be maintaining the 12 V battery correctly.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2014 by larryh

[Easy Rider]

Normally, 12.7+ V is considered 100% SOC.

 

The current gradually dropped to less than 1 amp when 85% SOC was reached and the car then continued to maintain that SOC.

 

You can NOT determine SOC just by voltage alone.......unless maybe there is a known, standard load applied at the time.

 

AND if a net one amp was going to the little battery and the SOC was not slowly going UP over 30 minutes or so......then the battery is going bad.

 

SOMETHING is wrong with this picture.

Either the measurements are inaccurate OR something is going bad in the 12 volt system.

So far, the evidence points to the battery.

 

In your above example, how long was the total trip ??

Given the draw of all the computers and headlights at the beginning and at the end, it is possible that short trips are resulting in a net loss of SOC over time.

 

The car does not change it's "preference" for the proper SOC for the battery at different times.

I think it is fair to assume that the design calls for it to maintain it close to 100% under most conditions........just like the older non-hybrid systems did....and still do.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Easy Rider