Battery saver message

[hybridbear]

 

I guess I've said too much already.

Please let us know how long it is before your battery fails completely.

 

I sleep just fine at night.......,but thank you for caring.

Have you ever bothered to check the SOC of your 12V battery? Perhaps it is low too.

[larryh]

When I connected a charger to my 12 V battery this weekend, within a minute the green light indicating the 12 V battery was full came on. The car reported that the SOC was 72% before connecting the charger. Just like when I turn the car on, the current started out at about 20 amps and then dropped to about 2 amps within four minutes. So I believe the 12 V battery is just fine. I'm not sure charging it with an external charger is going to do anything useful.

Edited June 1, 2014 by larryh

[larryh]

After my drive this morning, I am now charging the HVB. Initially, the DC to DC converter was not even enabled--the car was not charging the 12 V battery at all while charging the HVB. About half an hour later, it enabled the DC to DC converter and is now charging the 12 V battery at the lower voltage level of about 13.3 V.

Edited June 1, 2014 by larryh

[GrySql]

 

How about commenting on the CONTENT of my posts instead of taking pot shots about my posting STYLE ??

Your CONTENT?

One way to see how well your CONTENT and STYLE is received is the amount of 'Likes' you collect. Got any?

 

 

SIGH. There is NOTHING in the charging system or it's associated logic that makes changes like that ON PURPOSE.

It has not "decided" to do that.

Something is wrong.

I quit.

Content?

The big capital SIGH, as though Larryh, a brilliant and informed member, can't understand what you know so well.

 

BUT it is your time and your money and YOU that will have to deal with the hassle if it finally fails at a bad time so don't get a charger; no skin off my nose.

Content?

How about this remark to a Mod who knows 10 times more about a FFH than you ever will and has two different diagnostic scanners hooked up to his car.

Your content implies that if he does not follow your advice it's "no skin off my nose", as though he's not as smart as you. With a capital 'you' thrown in just to make it more offensive.

 

 

Why are you so stubbornly still screwing with it when you should be having the shop check out the battery and the charging ?????

Content?

Nice going. Well done, making friends and helping out, in your usual friendly, commanding way.

-

It is easy to wallow though your self satisfied posts and find some snide or demeaning aside added just to prove to yourself how superior you are.

In another Thread about the oil level being 1/4" over the dipstick high mark you comment "you don't "have" to do any such thing.......and it will be just fine."

Then add the little dig:

"Isn't it a bit messy to remove oil by using the drain bolt ??"

That sure was a lot of help and support for someone with a problem to solve.

-

What does it matter to me? Why do I care? I like this Forum, been here a long time.

There are not many times any of us feel compelled to comment on another members activities, but in this one Topic Thread you've insulted the intelligence of, or flamed, some very respected members, including a Moderator.

You've done the same in many other posts to people who, in one case, is an aeronautical engineer and has been a terrific asset to us.

You might benefit from reviewing your posts before you put them on the Forum to see if your 'help' is indeed as helpful as you think it is, instead of just talking.

You might also refrain from using 'verbal Judo' phrases and inferences that are interpreted as belligerent or superior.

This is a Forum, not your private life.

-

BTW, APIM = Accessory Protocol Interface Module

 

Welcome to the Forum.

Edited June 1, 2014 by GrySql

[Easy Rider]

Your CONTENT?

One way to see how well your CONTENT and STYLE is received is the amount of 'Likes' you collect. Got any?

 

 

With 137 total posts and 13 "likes", that's near 10%.......not that it REALLY makes any difference.

 

The rest of your "character assassination" post will be totally ignored.

 

Just for the record though, NOTHING I post here is intended to offend anyone and IS intended to be helpful.

 

I'm sorry that you don't like my style but that is YOUR problem, not mine.

 

Cheers.

[Easy Rider]

When I connected a charger to my 12 V battery this weekend, within a minute the green light indicating the 12 V battery was full came on. The car reported that the SOC was 72% before connecting the charger.

 

That tells me that one or the other of those pieces of equipment is giving a misleading indication, or maybe they are measuring by different standards.

 

[corncobs]

 

With 137 total posts and 13 "likes", that's near 10%.......not that it REALLY makes any difference.

I hate to say this and as you said not that is matters but that wasn't a smart comment at all in response to someone that has more likes than actual posts!

 

That's close 110% and if I'm not mistaking that's about 100% more than you have.

[GrySql]

Low Voltage Battery Charging System - Overview

The 12V battery is charged by the Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) converter control module. It is enabled when the high voltage battery contactors have closed, providing high-voltage power to the DC/DC converter control module.

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the battery state of charge condition and provides the BCM with this information. The BCM communicates this information to the PCM over the High Speed CAN network (HS- CAN). The PCM communicates the battery desired set point to the DC/DC converter control module which supplies the necessary charge voltage to the 12V battery. The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced.

The Battery Monitoring Sensor is clamped directly to the negative terminal of the battery and grounds to the vehicle at the chassis ground connection point through the negative battery cable and eyelet. It is part of the negative battery cable and cannot be serviced separately.

 

 

 

[Texasota]

 

Low Voltage Battery Charging System - Overview

GrySql, where do you dig up this fascinating information? Do you have moles deeps inside of Ford engineering? ;)

[GrySql]

GrySql, where do you dig up this fascinating information? Do you have moles deeps inside of Ford engineering? ;)

LOL, it's no secret, this useful info was provided thanks to 'airbusguy' for all to read, it's Pinned here on the Forum.

Those two .pdf files are very informative.

[larryh]

When looking through the logs I have made while driving and charging the car, I observe the DC to DC converter voltage applied to to the 12 V battery as follows:

 

Percentage of Time Voltage

44% 14.3

50% 13.3

5% Off

[acdii]

Guys, I posted a Forum rules sticky at the top of the Welcome thread. Please adhere to them. Thanks. Occasional Banter is OK, but criticizing each other is not accepted.

[larryh]

I had some TSBs applied yesterday to the car. TSB 14-0020, to fix the issue I was having with the Service Engine Soon light coming on when using the Engine Block Heater, seems to have changed the car's behavior with respect to charging the 12 V battery. It appears the technicians reflashed the SOBDMC, BECM, SOBDM, and PCM. For the past three trips, the DC to DC converter voltage setpoint has been 14.7 Volts the entire time. Before, it initially started at 14.3 Volts and later dropped to 13.3 Volts. I will have to monitor to see if the behavior has also changed while charging the HVB. At the end of the third trip, the SOC was 84%.

Edited June 5, 2014 by larryh

[Easy Rider]

Do you want to hear what I think about this or not ?

 

If all of your readings are assumed to be accurate AND that behavior continues.........

that is, charging near full blast all the time AND the SOC never going above 85%......

your battery is weak.

 

AND the behavior you noticed before, with the charging voltage dropping off after a while,

is more like what a conventional charging system would do.

One that never falls below 14.7 would be considered to be overcharging......and that is hard on a battery too.

[billford]

I was reading a Ford broadcast message, something the dealers get every day. There is supposed to be a fix for the battery saver message in the 3rd quarter of 2014. Possibly due to the electric water pump...

[Barsoom]

Interesting news. I will stay tuned.

 

For me, I finally had my original battery replaced about a month ago. As expected, I have not had a return of the BS message since then. I attribute that to the new battery and proof that the old battery was not keeping a charge, probably the last of the defective 4Q2012 lot.

 

Now, I'm waiting for my short hops to slowly drain the battery again to the point where the BS message comes back. It's been 4 weeks so far. On the one hand, I had hopes that the fresh battery would keep the charge above the BS message threshold. On the other hand, I didn't have confidence that the battery alone was the solution; I always felt that there was some other slow drain contributing to the problem. Time would tell.

 

So I'm watching and waiting...

[larryh]

I tried a simple experiment to verify what SOC is measuring. I plugged the car into the 240 V charger with the charger turned off and turned on the car. When I do this, the DC to DC converter is disabled and the entire 12 V power supply to run the car comes from the 12 V battery. The lights, radio, and other accessories in the car consumed 23 amps of power for about 25 minutes. The SOC dropped linearly from 81% to 51% (R^2 = 0.9976, where 1 is perfectly linear). The equation for SOC vs. time was:

 

y = -0.0211x + 80.695,

 

where y is SOC in percent and x is time in seconds. Interpolating (which probably is not accurate), if the SOC were 100%, it would take 100/.0211 = 4739 seconds or 1.32 hours to discharge the battery drawing a current of 23 amps. That means the capacity of the battery is 23*1.32 = 30.2 Ah. The rated battery capacity is 43 Ah. I don't know the actual procedure used to compute battery capacity.

 

At 51% SOC, the car no longer powers the power points after turning off the car. So it definitely recognizes that the 12 V battery is low and is trying to conserve energy.

 

I previously did this unintentionally. The car stopped working after 45 minutes. So extrapolating, the car is completely dead when the SOC is about 25%. I don't intend to repeat this experiment again to determine the actual value.

From what I have read, the Ah capacity of a car battery is usually measured using a discharge rate that results in a full discharge over 20 hours. The rated capacity of the battery is 43 Ah, so a discharge current of about 43 / 20 = 2.15 amps should be used to measure the battery capacity. I was using 23 amps. The observed battery capacity decreases with increasing current draw according to Peukert's law: the capacity of the battery in Ah at a one-amp draw rate is where I is the actual draw rate, k is the Peukert constant which ranges between 1.1 and 1.3 for a lead acid car battery, and t is the time to discharge the battery.

 

Going through the math, it should take between 0.92 to 1.48 hours to fully discharge the battery at 23 amps assuming a capacity of 43 Ah (for k ranging from 1.1 to 1.3). I estimated 1.32 hours if the battery were fully charged. But I doubt the current flow would remain 23 amps as the SOC reaches 0%. There are too many unknowns and assumptions to draw any firm conclusions regarding if the SOC is being measured correctly or the capacity of the 12 V battery is actual 43 Ah.

Edited June 6, 2014 by larryh

[acdii]

Hey Larry, you should edit your profile so that is say resident Braniac under your interests! :) A+b-d/w*q=z went way over my head. LOL My math consists of 0+7=8. No that isnt wrong either, it just happens to be how my math works for the job I do.

[larryh]

My college degrees are in Physics/Math/Computer Engineering, so I should be able to figure these things out.

 

After the upgrade to the SOBDMC, SOBDM, PCM, and BECM, the car is now very persistent in charging the 12 V battery when the charger is plugged in. Prior to the upgrade, the only time it charged the 12 V battery was when the HVB battery needed charging. Now, it charges the 12 V battery if the car is plugged in and the HVB is fully charged. It charged the battery for four hours this morning until the timer shut off the charger. The SOC has gone from 86% to 88%.

Edited June 6, 2014 by larryh

[larryh]

Do you want to hear what I think about this or not ?

 

If all of your readings are assumed to be accurate AND that behavior continues.........

that is, charging near full blast all the time AND the SOC never going above 85%......

your battery is weak.

 

AND the behavior you noticed before, with the charging voltage dropping off after a while,

is more like what a conventional charging system would do.

One that never falls below 14.7 would be considered to be overcharging......and that is hard on a battery too.

The dealer was supposed to check the 12 V battery during the inspection. I let the service manager know. He claims everything was fine. But, I didn't talk to the technician servicing the car, so I can't verify that they actually tested it. The service manager just seems to say yes to all your requests, but I have a suspicion they don't actually make it to the technician servicing the car and they don't actually ask the technician if your requests checked out OK.

[larryh]

Now I am confused what the car is doing. If I turn the car on and off when it is plugged into the charger, it will start charging the 12 V battery for up to four hours at about 14.5 V. It did not do that prior to applying TSB 14-0020. It currently claims the SOC is 91%. When I measure the voltage of the 12 V battery with no load after sitting for 20 minutes, it reads 12.99 V. That seems rather high. I wonder if it is underestimating SOC and now overcharging the 12 V battery. I notice that the count of start/stop events recorded by the BCM was zeroed out when they reflashed by the modules. I wonder if there are parameters associated with the 12 V battery that are incorrectly set. It reports the correct age for the 12 V battery, 444 days.

Edited June 8, 2014 by larryh

[Easy Rider]

When I measure the voltage of the 12 V battery with no load after sitting for 20 minutes, it reads 12.99 V. That seems rather high.

It is probably fine.

Let it sit for a couple of hours or open a door during those 20 minutes.

What you are seeing is called "surface charge" and it will bleed off in a short time, down to 12.8 or so.

 

There have been several folks participating in this thread who have slightly different situations.

Please refresh me as to why YOU started worrying about your battery in the first place.

[Ric]

Getting tired of taking it to the dealer for the BS message. Dealer has had it at least five times so far. Now, every two weeks the BS comes on. I charge the battery up and it's good for another two weeks, then repeat the cycle. I don't know what else to do.

[Easy Rider]

Find your warranty book.

Call Ford for help.

Wasn't it the '13s that had a bulletin out about a bad batch of batteries ??

The dealer needs to think just a tiny bit outside the box of "normal" tests.

Many are not capable of doing that it seems.

 

What are your driving habits like.......trip length and frequency ??

[murphy]

What is your normal drive like? Short trips and sitting in the garage for days at a time are not enough to keep the battery charged. The car is never off. There are lots of circuits that stay on all of the time.