Engine warmup/staying warm

[GrySql]

In another post somewhere I noted that my shutters are open before the first start of the day and close immediately after the car is started.

I wanted to know what that buzzing noise on startup was, so now I know. I watched the shutters as they closed.

 

Our weather here has been much warmer (30-70˚) than you folks who live in northern and snow areas.

Watching my Temp gauge was boring, it simply goes to the middle white position after about 3 minutes and stays there during the drive.

It rapidly cools when parked but comes right back up when driven.

I haven't used the diagnostic mode to see what that temperature actually is, I just stopped watching it.

My previous non-hybrid cars exhibited the same temp behavior, except in the hottest months when the engine temps naturally rise a little because of the AC always being on.

 

I frequently travel to Phoenix on I-10, through the Palm Springs area where pizza oven temps (above 115˚) are usual in summer months.

I am interested to find out how it handles our summer weather and the mileage during those times when the AC is always maxed out.

Climbing the 25 mile Chiriaco grade to the summit will be interesting.

[Fynack]

Great questions. I don't think you'll be invited back :)

[Fynack]

I agree that this is one area that Ford needs to improve. Hopefully for the 2014 model year they will make some adjustments to help the engine hold on to its heat longer. We've had this discussion in a different topic and someone commented that one reason that the Prius stays warmer longer is that the coolant resevoir is insulated like a thermos. If Ford were to do the same it would probably make a lot of difference.

 

I was trying to ask about this in the Fusion Hybrid interview with Gil Portalatin from Ford, but he didn't give much of an explanation.

 

Check out the video below, at 18:04 I asked about why no electric heater like the Energi has so that the ICE doesn't have to run in the winter. And then at 41:22 asking about the differences with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. The other reason than the Toyota HSD leads to engines that stay warmer longer is that the Toyotas spend a lot less time with the ICE shut off compared to the FFH. That is another failing of the Fusion. When the ICE runs it is not as efficient as Toyota's ICE, so Ford tries to run the ICE as little as possible, but that leads to a cold ICE which is an inefficient ICE and a cranky driver without heat.

 

http://youtu.be/nUwnEdPQt0g

Great questions on the chat but he did a bold face lie when he stated the EPA does the test we dont.

[hybridbear]

I have posted elsewhere that shutters work off temps. I videoed them opening at 190deg.F and fully opened at 213deg.F. They're opening has nothing to do with speed, all my tests were done at 70mph. It is Hard to believe people are so miss informed at FORD.

 

Where are the videos? I'm curious to see that

 

In another post somewhere I noted that my shutters are open before the first start of the day and close immediately after the car is started.

I wanted to know what that buzzing noise on startup was, so now I know. I watched the shutters as they closed.

 

It appears that the engineer from Ford who's responsible for the hybrid powertrain doesn't even know how it works because the grille shutters are closed all the time in the cold. I verified this afternoon that the buzzing noise referenced by GrySql is in fact the grille shutters opening and closing. They close after starting the car and then open when the vehicle is put into park and shut off. It appears that when the car is off mine are about halfway closed

Edited February 25, 2013 by hybridbear

[hybridbear]

Great questions on the chat but he did a bold face lie when he stated the EPA does the test we dont.

 

I think he meant that the EPA sets the guidelines, but you're correct that his words were not exactly correct

[hybridbear]

Our weather here has been much warmer (30-70˚) than you folks who live in northern and snow areas.

Watching my Temp gauge was boring, it simply goes to the middle white position after about 3 minutes and stays there during the drive.

It rapidly cools when parked but comes right back up when driven.

I haven't used the diagnostic mode to see what that temperature actually is, I just stopped watching it.

My previous non-hybrid cars exhibited the same temp behavior, except in the hottest months when the engine temps naturally rise a little because of the AC always being on.

 

I frequently travel to Phoenix on I-10, through the Palm Springs area where pizza oven temps (above 115˚) are usual in summer months.

I am interested to find out how it handles our summer weather and the mileage during those times when the AC is always maxed out.

Climbing the 25 mile Chiriaco grade to the summit will be interesting.

 

We were in Palm Springs on vacation in January and at 75-80 degrees the car did great going up the mountains. We drove up to Idyllwild and other places in the mountains with no issue. Even on those climbs straight up into the mountains the car averaged about 23 MPG, and then coming back down it did something like 80 MPG. One thing that you'll find with mountain driving is that with grade assist on the ICE turns on to brake once the battery is full. The owner's manual says that this doesn't burn any gas but that the engine is simply running to create a vacuum to provide engine braking. It is rather disconcerting though when we're used to the gentle rolling hills of MN to have the engine revving at 5000 RPM for many miles. Also, even though the gas mileage is very high on those downhill jaunts because the engine doesn't use gas when doing engine braking the EV miles on the display will be low because all those miles of engine braking are NOT EV miles. I'm curious to hear how it goes for you driving through there in the summer at 115 degrees

[hybridbear]

What our cars need is a nose bra that covers the entire grill area, with an opening for the radar unit and parking sensors.

 

If I only knew how to sew.

 

Haha good idea. The block heater definitely makes a noticeable difference. I had the car plugged in today for about 3.5 hours while parked outside. When I plugged it in the coolant was at about 65 degrees Celsius and the outside temp was around 25 this afternoon. When I started the car 3/5 hours later the coolant temp was 50 degrees celsius exactly. Using Engineering Test Mode (which I'll now call ET Mode cuz that's just too long to type each time...) I watched the coolant temp drop to 45 Celsius before the ICE kicked on because I was able to drive almost a half mile before the ICE came on for the first time. Once the ICE kicked on it definitely shut off more quickly because the emissions components warm up faster than the coolant which was already starting out warm. In the couple of miles I drove before getting on the freeway the coolant temp always stayed above 50 Celsius, which when I've started from the same place without having the block heater plugged in is not the case. Then it takes much longer to get the ICE warmed up and is much harder to keep it warm enough to not run excessively. Once I got on the freeway for a couple miles the coolant reached about 80 Celsius but that was as high as it went in about 5-6 miles of 55 MPH freeway driving through the city. By the time I drove through the city back to our apartment the coolant temp was back down to about 55 only.

 

Spring is almost here but I want to figure out some way to stick some insulation or something between the vents in the grille to help keep the car warmer. I'd also like to try to figure out a way to insulate the coolant reservoir, like on the Prius, I might try to do that too for next winter.

 

Please share any ideas you might have, thanks

[GrySql]

We were in Palm Springs on vacation in January and at 75-80 degrees the car did great going up the mountains. We drove up to Idyllwild and other places in the mountains with no issue. Even on those climbs straight up into the mountains the car averaged about 23 MPG, and then coming back down it did something like 80 MPG. One thing that you'll find with mountain driving is that with grade assist on the ICE turns on to brake once the battery is full. The owner's manual says that this doesn't burn any gas but that the engine is simply running to create a vacuum to provide engine braking. It is rather disconcerting though when we're used to the gentle rolling hills of MN to have the engine revving at 5000 RPM for many miles. Also, even though the gas mileage is very high on those downhill jaunts because the engine doesn't use gas when doing engine braking the EV miles on the display will be low because all those miles of engine braking are NOT EV miles. I'm curious to hear how it goes for you driving through there in the summer at 115 degrees

There is plenty of snow in Idyllwild right now, I live 30 miles west of there and much lower.

We've had the car up there once already, we got 28 going up and 70mpg going down, motor racing and all.

 

My brother lives in Palm Springs and one of my daughters lives just west of Phoenix, so I'm out that way a few times in the summer.

I'll pass on any pertinent info about the FFH and the heat soaked desert.

The other fun item that Palm Springs valley area provides is sandstorms, a year ago in 105˚ weather, my car was sanded in 70mph crosswinds, 25' visability, hit with flying debris and palm tree fronds to the tune of $3400 in damage for a 15 mile stretch of highway.

The rattlesnakes, lizards and roadrunner birds bouncing off the windshield were a bonus and gave new meaning to the windshield WASHER system. I got a new windshield too.

MN doesn't have all the fun weather.

 

I hope I get good mpg's the next time... LOL!

[acdii]

Unlike the block heater in the Powerstrokes, I believe the heater on the Fusion heats the oil, not the coolant. Not sure the wattage, but the one in the Diesel was 1500 watts, and would get the meter spinning big time.

 

 

Speaking of shutters, did you know the $40,000 diagnostic computer Ford uses doesn't not have a diagnostic for the shutters? I asked if they checked if the shutters were working correctly, and all I got was a shrug, they have no way of knowing. Now that I think back, when I looked at the shutters with the car off, they looked partially closed. If it turns out that all this time it was a shutter problem, I wont be very happy.

 

It is Hard to believe people are so miss informed at FORD.

It's a training issue. Majority of the sale people have no clue what they are selling, have no idea how to work the MFT, barely know Sync. I did find out yesterday that the sales people at Lincoln do take classes to learn the aspects of the new vehicles, but none had a clue yet on the MKZ Hybrid. From what I can see they just started hitting the showrooms.

 

Pretty sad when the customer knows more about the cars the salesguys are selling than they do.

[B25Nut]

Hybridbear, after using the EBH did you get warm air from the climate control sooner than you normally do? Thanks for taking the time to do this testing.

A trip yesterday involved a moderate climb before going down a long, steep downgrade. My battery's SOC was at about 2/3 when I started going downhill and reached 100% before I got even half way down the grade. It was frustrating seeing this potential energy wasted, which made me think that future upgrades of Ford's hybrid system should expand the function of the EV+ mode with elevation inputs from the Nav system. This way the vehicle would be aware of upcoming downgrades and use more EV in the climb to the summit.

A funny sight on this trip was the rare sight of seeing a Prius pulled over by the Highway Patrol. Yesterday was my last class on climate change. One of the speakers (who is a teacher) realated how proud he was of his daughter and her husband for living in a log cabin up in Washington. The electricity they use comes from a neighbor's solar panels and only powers their computers. Candles are the only lighting. Such a great example of what our children should strive for (not!).

[GrySql]

I verified this afternoon that the buzzing noise referenced by GrySql is in fact the grille shutters opening and closing. They open after starting the car and then close when the vehicle is put into park and shut off. It appears that when the car is off mine are about halfway closed

That's not what I saw, mine are open after sitting overnight. The first start of the day caused them to close until the engine is warm enough. I haven't looked at any other time.

Ptjones explained what he saw with his video as they opened again at 190F.

If your shutters are open after driving then it must be because the engine temp is over 190F.

Look again when the engine is dead cold, they should move to the closed position until the ICE is completely warmed up. Maybe the EBH can affect the shutters too.

Edited February 24, 2013 by GrySql

[acdii]

A funny sight on this trip was the rare sight of seeing a Prius pulled over by the Highway Patrol. Yesterday was my last class on climate change. One of the speakers (who is a teacher) realated how proud he was of his daughter and her husband for living in a log cabin up in Washington. The electricity they use comes from a neighbor's solar panels and only powers their computers. Candles are the only lighting. Such a great example of what our children should strive for (not!).

Sounds more like going backwards, or maybe they are afraid of the mercury in CFL's or cant afford LED lighting.

[storksb]

Took a look at my shutters this morning before going for a drive, open prior to starting the car and still open once I had started the engine. There was a whirring sound from the area of the shutters but they did not close. After I got home and parked I heard the whirring sound again but was not quick enough see the shutters moving, but they where open. I an wondering this is the cause of my low mpg.

Going to ask the service department tomorrow if they can test there operation.

[hybridbear]

Pretty sad when the customer knows more about the cars the salesguys are selling than they do.

 

I found that when talking with different salespeople I knew more about the hybrids than they did. Both at Ford & Toyota. Part of why we bought the car where we did and have been so happy with that dealer is that the salesman who helped us is more knowledgeable and when there was a hybrid question that he didn't have the answer to he took the time to research it for us and get the answer.

 

Hybridbear, after using the EBH did you get warm air from the climate control sooner than you normally do? Thanks for taking the time to do this testing.

A trip yesterday involved a moderate climb before going down a long, steep downgrade. My battery's SOC was at about 2/3 when I started going downhill and reached 100% before I got even half way down the grade. It was frustrating seeing this potential energy wasted, which made me think that future upgrades of Ford's hybrid system should expand the function of the EV+ mode with elevation inputs from the Nav system. This way the vehicle would be aware of upcoming downgrades and use more EV in the climb to the summit.

A funny sight on this trip was the rare sight of seeing a Prius pulled over by the Highway Patrol. Yesterday was my last class on climate change. One of the speakers (who is a teacher) realated how proud he was of his daughter and her husband for living in a log cabin up in Washington. The electricity they use comes from a neighbor's solar panels and only powers their computers. Candles are the only lighting. Such a great example of what our children should strive for (not!).

 

Yes, the EBH made a big difference on getting warm air from the HVAC system. After using the EBH I got warm air from the HVAC without the engine running constantly after 1 mile compared to driving many miles through the city otherwise and not getting heat unless the ICE runs when otherwise unneccesary.

 

I found the same frustration with the hills when we were in the mountains out west. When I knew a steep downhill was coming up I tried to drive in a way to use as much EV mode as possible so that I wouldn't waste the downhill momentum on engine braking instead of recharging the battery. I think I remember reading somewhere that BMW or MB was factoring GPS and elevation into into cruise control and hybrid systems.

 

Seeing a Prius pulled over would be pretty hilarious.

 

It appears that the engineer from Ford who's responsible for the hybrid powertrain doesn't even know how it works because the grille shutters are closed all the time in the cold. I verified this afternoon that the buzzing noise referenced by GrySql is in fact the grille shutters opening and closing. They close after starting the car and then open when the vehicle is put into park and shut off. It appears that when the car is off mine are about halfway closed

 

I totally said it wrong before and I fixed my comment now. The shutters close after starting the car and open when putting it in park and shutting off. It appears that my grille shutters are about halfway open/closed when the car is shut off, although sometimes it appears that they are fully open when the car is shut off

[storksb]

Looked at the shutters again this morning and today they were shut after starting the engine,so I have no idea if they working as 100% of the time, Will try and check each morning the rest of week to see there a pattern.

[acdii]

I got mine back, going to look at the shutters myself.

[GrySql]

I got mine back, going to look at the shutters myself.

I again put the coolant temp into MyView and watched it yesterday and today during another of our 300 miler cross LA trips.

It quickly warms up and sits in the middle white position and doesn't budge. Weather is 45F at startup, with the shutters closing and the car is warm in less than 2 miles.

It stayed that way throughout the various stops and traffic but I forgot to look at the shutter position when we got home tonight.

Mainly because my wife hit the car's key fob 'panic' button while trying to open the front door and I lost my train of thought - sigh.

 

This trip was over hill and dale, up steep hills, high speed 80mph sections and dense stop and go traffic - got 40.1mpg.

My wife is in control of the climate controls and she uses them no matter what I might personally want, after all these years I've quit trying.

I have got her entering the navigation destinations on the MFT, that is working out and I am happy to let her do it.

I just tell her the destination and soon we're hearing the nav directions.

[Fynack]

I again put the coolant temp into MyView and watched it yesterday and today during another of our 300 miler cross LA trips.

It quickly warms up and sits in the middle white position and doesn't budge. Weather is 45F at startup, with the shutters closing and the car is warm in less than 2 miles.

It stayed that way throughout the various stops and traffic but I forgot to look at the shutter position when we got home tonight.

Mainly because my wife hit the car's key fob 'panic' button while trying to open the front door and I lost my train of thought - sigh.

 

This trip was over hill and dale, up steep hills, high speed 80mph sections and dense stop and go traffic - got 40.1mpg.

My wife is in control of the climate controls and she uses them no matter what I might personally want, after all these years I've quit trying.

I have got her entering the navigation destinations on the MFT, that is working out and I am happy to let her do it.

I just tell her the destination and soon we're hearing the nav directions.

 

We must have two different cars. At 45f it does take about 2 miles to get warm into ev mode. But during that time my cars mpg will tank 4 to 5 mpgs before ev can kick in. At that 40 mpg is impossible for me

[acdii]

That temp gauge is not accurate. It will be at the halfway mark when its 146* or 198*. Only true way to know is to have it in EM and look at the actual temp readout, its in Celsius so has to be converted for us non metric guys. There is a definite temperature curse on these. It was warmer last night, so it was easier to maintain 40, but 8* colder today and it was not easy at all, in fact I gave up after the first 10 miles and just drove it like I do my other one. I sure hope it does snow today, thats the only reason I drove it, dont want to keep adding miles on until I can get a resolution from Ford. It's also cheaper to drive my other car.

 

Our 2010 got 41.8 last night! I really need to get the wife to keep it clean, its a good car, and want it to last.

[GrySql]

Okay, Engineering Test Mode it is...

Here's a C to F converter

 

Today's 40 mile RT.

This morning it was 12C in the garage before initial start.

Shutters were open.

 

Started the car in the ET Mode, shutters closed immediately.

Within 1.5 miles the ICE temp was 60C when I entered the highway.

Temps slowly climbed to 85C on level terrain at 70mph, all ICE powering the car.

Going down a mild 2 mile grade the temps dropped to 79C then the car was basically coasting.

Then on to surface streets using EV & ICE.

I saw the highest temperatures of the day at the highway off ramp stop sign and other stop signs when the car was in the EV mode --> 94C.

The ICE was off and heat soaking at stop signs.

 

On the return trip the ambient outside weather temp was now 18C.

The only change was when I climbed the 2 mile grade at 70mph, the ICE temp got to 88C.

When I pulled in the garage the ICE temp was 90C and the shutters were fully open and stayed that way when the engine was turned off.

Half an hour later they were still open as the car cooled off.

 

I did not even try to use the EV today, the car did whatever it was going to do while I just drove with traffic both ways.

Besides, with the ET Mode window covering the left display I couldn't see MyView anyway.

Got 45.3 mpg for that 'downhill' drive.

The uphill mpg was 35.1, driving 70-75mph up the grade staying with traffic on the highway.

 

I think my ICE temps are good and am interested to see what they are in the summer when the local weather is in the 100's here.

BTW, it's a 'dry' heat.... ;o)

 

 

[hybridbear]

Okay, Engineering Test Mode it is...

Here's a C to F converter

 

Today's 40 mile RT.

This morning it was 12C in the garage before initial start.

Shutters were open.

 

Started the car in the ET Mode, shutters closed immediately.

Within 1.5 miles the ICE temp was 60C when I entered the highway.

Temps slowly climbed to 85C on level terrain at 70mph, all ICE powering the car.

Going down a mild 2 mile grade the temps dropped to 79C then the car was basically coasting.

Then on to surface streets using EV & ICE.

I saw the highest temperatures of the day at the highway off ramp stop sign and other stop signs when the car was in the EV mode --> 94C.

The ICE was off and heat soaking at stop signs.

 

On the return trip the ambient outside weather temp was now 18C.

The only change was when I climbed the 2 mile grade at 70mph, the ICE temp got to 88C.

When I pulled in the garage the ICE temp was 90C and the shutters were fully open and stayed that way when the engine was turned off.

Half an hour later they were still open as the car cooled off.

 

I did not even try to use the EV today, the car did whatever it was going to do while I just drove with traffic both ways.

Besides, with the ET Mode window covering the left display I couldn't see MyView anyway.

Got 45.3 mpg for that 'downhill' drive.

The uphill mpg was 35.1, driving 70-75mph up the grade staying with traffic on the highway.

 

I think my ICE temps are good and am interested to see what they are in the summer when the local weather is in the 100's here.

BTW, it's a 'dry' heat.... ;o)

 

Great information, thanks

[acdii]

Drove home in the snow storm tonight, took about 90 minutes, and the car didn't really warm up until about 45 minutes into the drive. My feet are still cold! Going to spend some time on it this weekend and see what I can do to block off the grill. BRRRR

[storksb]

Reading the issues you are having acdii it sounds like you may have a bad thermostat that is not closing when cold. This could account for the fouled plugs as it will run richer when cold. Have you had the dealer test the thermostat? Might have them check thermostat on Thursday if I can convince them to look at it and not blame the gas.

[acdii]

Yep, according to their $40K laptop the car is running perfectly.

[Fynack]

Okay, Engineering Test Mode it is...

http://www.wbuf.noaa.gov/tempfc.htm]Here's a C to F converter[/url]

 

Today's 40 mile RT.

This morning it was 12C in the garage before initial start.

Shutters were open.

 

Started the car in the ET Mode, shutters closed immediately.

Within 1.5 miles the ICE temp was 60C when I entered the highway.

Temps slowly climbed to 85C on level terrain at 70mph, all ICE powering the car.

Going down a mild 2 mile grade the temps dropped to 79C then the car was basically coasting.

Then on to surface streets using EV & ICE.

I saw the highest temperatures of the day at the highway off ramp stop sign and other stop signs when the car was in the EV mode --> 94C.

The ICE was off and heat soaking at stop signs.

 

On the return trip the ambient outside weather temp was now 18C.

The only change was when I climbed the 2 mile grade at 70mph, the ICE temp got to 88C.

When I pulled in the garage the ICE temp was 90C and the shutters were fully open and stayed that way when the engine was turned off.

Half an hour later they were still open as the car cooled off.

 

I did not even try to use the EV today, the car did whatever it was going to do while I just drove with traffic both ways.

Besides, with the ET Mode window covering the left display I couldn't see MyView anyway.

Got 45.3 mpg for that 'downhill' drive.

The uphill mpg was 35.1, driving 70-75mph up the grade staying with traffic on the highway.

 

I think my ICE temps are good and am interested to see what they are in the summer when the local weather is in the 100's here.

BTW, it's a 'dry' heat.... ;o)

 

18c is about 65f and you got about 40mpg at almost near optimal temp of 70f. And when you say local weather of a 100 im assuming your changing to f? Since 100c is the boiling point of 212f. Im confused ...you cant be from canada cause they dont see 100f days yet you use celsius which the usa doesnt use. Edited February 27, 2013 by Fynack