Engine warmup/staying warm

[lmp180psu]

I have just over 3000 miles on my Hybrid, and there are a couple things i have noticed which have bothered me a bit. I have not logged my last couple fillups which have been around 40 or so which isn't bad considering the winter temps and gas etc. However, i have been pretty selective on how i use the climate control system and when i use the heat trying to get the best mileage i can. In some cases this is to the detriment of my comfort since I have found that if i keep the heat on for any prolonged periods of time, the car goes in and out of being able to be in EV mode (the temp symbol goes back to blue even if i drive for 30+ minutes). It is almost like the engine warms up (though i have rarely seen the temp gauge half way up), then it will cool down and go below the lowest white line, which will cause EV to not operate. I don't turn on the climate control in the mornings for at least the first 10-15 minutes of my commute since as soon as i turn it on the car goes out of EV mode and theICE has to run. I dont even like running the climate in Auto or floor only since that seems to be a sure fire way to turn the ICE on.

Is this normal operation? I have read about acdii's issues with lower operating temps and wondering if there is an issue with the thermostat?

 

I read about going into diagnostic mode by holding the OK button. On what screen and when do you hold the OK button to get it to show the actual temp in celsius?

[acdii]

THIS is the same thing I found on mine. I do believe it directly relates to the poor MPG that mine is getting. Watch, a year from now they will have a fix for the cold running engines so we can have heat and get good MPG at the same time. I dont know why the 2010-12 can get warmed up so quickly and stay warm, and the 13 cools off so quickly. Even if I keep it on ICE at 55 MPH it takes a very long time to warm up to 180, in fact I can drive nearly 20 miles at 55 before it fully warmed up. The Ford engineer didnt think much of it and really had nothing to say about it, to me that just does not seem normal.

 

Eh whatever. I hope that they get it resolved soon.

[gemdc]

With switch off, hold the left side steering wheel OK button then turn key to "Run" then release. Should see a different screen where normal "Empower" ,etc displays. Then you can arrow up or down to get to different diagnostic displays some of which would take some research to decode. One of these you will hit is a temperature screen which will show current engine temp in Celsius. Convert that to Fahrenheit.

 

I have been doing same as you, leaving the heat / air OFF as much as possible. At least wait until the ICE has warmed up before calling for heat. Otherwise, we burn a lot of gasoline just rushing to get the heater warm. This engine seems to really burn a lot of gas when at idle if it is either warming up or doing a heavy charge on the batteries. Just watch the "instant mpg" display while coasting along at 20 mph with the engine in charge or warmup mode. I see less than 20 mpg for sure under those conditions. If you grab all the EV you can and the motor comes on because of the low EV battery, you will see very low instant mpg until the battery gauge gets back up to half charge. In cold weather, it seems that the heater core is almost enough to cool the motor and that will cycle the ICE a lot.

[fusionTX]

I have just over 3000 miles on my Hybrid, and there are a couple things i have noticed which have bothered me a bit. I have not logged my last couple fillups which have been around 40 or so which isn't bad considering the winter temps and gas etc. However, i have been pretty selective on how i use the climate control system and when i use the heat trying to get the best mileage i can. In some cases this is to the detriment of my comfort since I have found that if i keep the heat on for any prolonged periods of time, the car goes in and out of being able to be in EV mode (the temp symbol goes back to blue even if i drive for 30+ minutes). It is almost like the engine warms up (though i have rarely seen the temp gauge half way up), then it will cool down and go below the lowest white line, which will cause EV to not operate. I don't turn on the climate control in the mornings for at least the first 10-15 minutes of my commute since as soon as i turn it on the car goes out of EV mode and theICE has to run. I dont even like running the climate in Auto or floor only since that seems to be a sure fire way to turn the ICE on.

Is this normal operation? I have read about acdii's issues with lower operating temps and wondering if there is an issue with the thermostat?

I read about going into diagnostic mode by holding the OK button. On what screen and when do you hold the OK button to get it to show the actual temp in celsius?

That sounds pretty messed up. I sometimes don't turn on the heater on my TCH for the first few minutes to let it warm up too. But afterwards, heater or not, my mileage is barely affected. I'm sure your cold weather is much colder than Houston. We've had a very mild Winter this year, but I don't ever remember any drastic differences between running the heater and not.

[acdii]

Sounds like mine. Cold running catfish.

[lmp180psu]

Thanks for the information everyone. I will try to get to the diagnostic screens on my way home from work today and see where the temps fall. I have a 35 minute/19 mile drive with varying hills and straight stretches.

[lmp180psu]

Well i tried the diagnostic mode after work today on my way to kohl's for shopping. The temps were in the upper 20s, 8.4 miles of fairly hilly roads and I had the heat on 74-76 mostly in vent mode only. I had to turn off the heat a couple times to kick it back to EV mode. The highest temp the engine reached was 72c (162 F), and that was not for very long. It dropped to 60 (140F) steadily once the heat was on and the EV mode was used more often, and it was there when i parked at kohl's. The speeds were mostly between 30-45. I would think that the engine would warm up more quickly but maybe not. The overall mpg on that trip was 36.8.

[terryb]

I had my view when I tried to get the diag. screen and got no change in diplay. I did it moments after the shutdown from the trip. Do I need to wait longer or what?

[lmp180psu]

Before you start the car, hold down the left OK button, then while turning on the car continue to hold the OK button, then a prompt for the diagnostic screen will appear not long after the car starts. Some of the screens are interesting. There is an analog gauge test where the speedometer goes to 120 and then back to your speed.

[hybridbear]

Using this mode I discovered that the coolant temp must reach 50 C, or about 106 F before the ICE will shut off and let the car run in EV mode. In city driving the coolant and ICE temp can drop back below 50 C which will cause the ICE to continue running until the coolant warms back up.

[jeff_h]

Using this mode I discovered that the coolant temp must reach 50 C, or about 106 F before the ICE will shut off and let the car run in EV mode. In city driving the coolant and ICE temp can drop back below 50 C which will cause the ICE to continue running until the coolant warms back up.

 

That's similar to what my Prius used to do, system was designed to keep the emissions system above X degrees to maintain the least amount of emissions. So it seems strange that in the 2013 FFH you can 'sneak' a quick trip in without the ICE ever coming on as long as there is enough HV battery (the gas station is 0.9 miles from my house and mostly downhill, I can sneak there without the ICE coming on and get 999.9 MPG).... but this seems to only be a one-time-good-deal as once the ICE comes on for the first time, I've found that it will then keep to the rule you've noted above (at least in my experience).

[terryb]

I was able to verify on the my view temp. graphic that the water temp was climbing into the white zone within the first three minutes (ambient 50F) and climbed to mid scale on the grapgic within 10 miles and stayed there with thoroughfare driving abouth 40-45. I was not able to spend any time at 60 to look at shutter effects.

[hybridbear]

That's similar to what my Prius used to do, system was designed to keep the emissions system above X degrees to maintain the least amount of emissions. So it seems strange that in the 2013 FFH you can 'sneak' a quick trip in without the ICE ever coming on as long as there is enough HV battery (the gas station is 0.9 miles from my house and mostly downhill, I can sneak there without the ICE coming on and get 999.9 MPG).... but this seems to only be a one-time-good-deal as once the ICE comes on for the first time, I've found that it will then keep to the rule you've noted above (at least in my experience).

 

I like this fact. Although sometimes as soon as I start the car the ICE will fire up. I still have not be able to tell why. It's not below a certain temp, sometimes at 25 it will do that, sometimes at -10 it won't start the ICE immediately. I like that because it doesn't run the ICE unneccesarily if you're just making a short trip. I've seen trips over a mile without using the ICE if starting with a high SOC on the battery

[acdii]

Make sure the HVAC is off before you turn off the car. If you turn it off when you start the car, there is a good chance the ICE will still kick on.

[hybridbear]

Make sure the HVAC is off before you turn off the car. If you turn it off when you start the car, there is a good chance the ICE will still kick on.

HVAC is always turned off before shutting off the car. So we never turn the car on with the HVAC on. We do this for the very reason you state, we don't want the ICE to come on right away because of HVAC demands

[acdii]

Mine was parked in the garage, and even with HVAC off, once in a while it would kick the ICE on, I think it had something to do with SOC.

[expresspotato]

THIS is the same thing I found on mine. I do believe it directly relates to the poor MPG that mine is getting. Watch, a year from now they will have a fix for the cold running engines so we can have heat and get good MPG at the same time. I dont know why the 2010-12 can get warmed up so quickly and stay warm, and the 13 cools off so quickly. Even if I keep it on ICE at 55 MPH it takes a very long time to warm up to 180, in fact I can drive nearly 20 miles at 55 before it fully warmed up. The Ford engineer didnt think much of it and really had nothing to say about it, to me that just does not seem normal.

 

Eh whatever. I hope that they get it resolved soon.

Same here... Seems the engine gets stone cold after just a minute or two which is unlike any other car I've driven. Results in pretty poor MPG as the ICE just runs and runs at 1000+ RPM even if the battery is FULLY CHARGED. Its known it runs at higher RPM because its more efficient, drive the car and use the excess to charge the battery. But at idle when its full? Why still the high RPM?

[Fynack]

Same here... Seems the engine gets stone cold after just a minute or two which is unlike any other car I've driven. Results in pretty poor MPG as the ICE just runs and runs at 1000+ RPM even if the battery is FULLY CHARGED. Its known it runs at higher RPM because its more efficient, drive the car and use the excess to charge the battery. But at idle when its full? Why still the high RPM?

Definitely agree, i could be just drifting in a parking lot and have a full battery yet the engine will kick on about every 2 minutes. Im assuming just to keep the engine warm. Its almost like the engine block is super thin or made of glass. This definitely echos why ford chose 35mpg city for canada and why engine block heaters are standard in alaska

Edited February 23, 2013 by Fynack

[Fynack]

If they can figure out how to insulate the gas engine or just the fluids then program the car like a prius to just use the ICE when battery needs charging it would probably get better mileage.

[hybridbear]

Same here... Seems the engine gets stone cold after just a minute or two which is unlike any other car I've driven. Results in pretty poor MPG as the ICE just runs and runs at 1000+ RPM even if the battery is FULLY CHARGED. Its known it runs at higher RPM because its more efficient, drive the car and use the excess to charge the battery. But at idle when its full? Why still the high RPM?

 

 

If they can figure out how to insulate the gas engine or just the fluids then program the car like a prius to just use the ICE when battery needs charging it would probably get better mileage.

 

I agree that this is one area that Ford needs to improve. Hopefully for the 2014 model year they will make some adjustments to help the engine hold on to its heat longer. We've had this discussion in a different topic and someone commented that one reason that the Prius stays warmer longer is that the coolant resevoir is insulated like a thermos. If Ford were to do the same it would probably make a lot of difference.

 

I was trying to ask about this in the Fusion Hybrid interview with Gil Portalatin from Ford, but he didn't give much of an explanation.

 

Check out the video below, at 18:04 I asked about why no electric heater like the Energi has so that the ICE doesn't have to run in the winter. And then at 41:22 asking about the differences with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. The other reason than the Toyota HSD leads to engines that stay warmer longer is that the Toyotas spend a lot less time with the ICE shut off compared to the FFH. That is another failing of the Fusion. When the ICE runs it is not as efficient as Toyota's ICE, so Ford tries to run the ICE as little as possible, but that leads to a cold ICE which is an inefficient ICE and a cranky driver without heat.

 

http://youtu.be/nUwnEdPQt0g

[acdii]

cranky driver without heat.

Thats a good summation.

 

What our cars need is a nose bra that covers the entire grill area, with an opening for the radar unit and parking sensors.

 

 

If I only knew how to sew.

[B25Nut]

Ford's literature implies that the shutter's function is to improve the aerodynamics of the Fusion at higher speeds. Has it been determined yet if they shut off the flow of air at lower speeds? It seems that this could be difficult to detect.

Engine block heaters (EBH) have been discussed elsewhere, but I don't think there has been a clear answer whether they could help the heating problems we're talking about here. I sure wish my FFH was equipped with one that could heat up the coolant 1-2 hours before I leave in the morning. The car companies seem to consider the EBH's only function to be allowing the ICE to start in sub-zero temperatures. I think that they would be a sensible "plug-in" option that could improve everyone's mileage and give almost immediate climate control heat during winter months in all areas of the country. Combined with improved programming for the thermostat and shutters, we could all see better MPG.

[jeff_h]

Ford's literature implies that the shutter's function is to improve the aerodynamics of the Fusion at higher speeds. Has it been determined yet if they shut off the flow of air at lower speeds?

 

Can someone tell me the reference(s) on the grill shutters? I thought I saw mention of them somewhere, but did a search in the owner's manual on 'grill' and got lots of hits but only regarding sensors...

[hybridbear]

Ford's literature implies that the shutter's function is to improve the aerodynamics of the Fusion at higher speeds. Has it been determined yet if they shut off the flow of air at lower speeds? It seems that this could be difficult to detect.

Engine block heaters (EBH) have been discussed elsewhere, but I don't think there has been a clear answer whether they could help the heating problems we're talking about here. I sure wish my FFH was equipped with one that could heat up the coolant 1-2 hours before I leave in the morning. The car companies seem to consider the EBH's only function to be allowing the ICE to start in sub-zero temperatures. I think that they would be a sensible "plug-in" option that could improve everyone's mileage and give almost immediate climate control heat during winter months in all areas of the country. Combined with improved programming for the thermostat and shutters, we could all see better MPG.

Can someone tell me the reference(s) on the grill shutters? I thought I saw mention of them somewhere, but did a search in the owner's manual on 'grill' and got lots of hits but only regarding sensors...

Here in MN our Fusion came automatically with a block heater. I try to use it when I can, can't tell if it makes much difference. I'll check tonight using engineering test mode when I leave tonight because I plugged it in around 12:30. Other forums I've read about hybrids in general say that it's beneficial to use the block heater pretty much year round, but that in warmer weather the cost of the electricity doesn't outweigh the improvements in fuel economy.

 

As far as grille shutters, see my post that is number 20 in this thread with the Youtube video. I asked Gil Portalatin about the grille shutters and he told me that they are "dumb" at this point because they only close above 60 MPH instead of closing all the time and only opening when the engine needs to be cooled. Hopefully in the future Ford will design them as "smart" grille shutters that are usually closed and only open when needed.

Edited February 23, 2013 by hybridbear

[ptjones]

Here in MN our Fusion came automatically with a block heater. I try to use it when I can, can't tell if it makes much difference. I'll check tonight using engineering test mode when I leave tonight because I plugged it in around 12:30. Other forums I've read about hybrids in general say that it's beneficial to use the block heater pretty much year round, but that in warmer weather the cost of the electricity doesn't outweigh the improvements in fuel economy.

 

As far as grille shutters, see my post that is number 20 in this thread with the Youtube video. I asked Gil Portalatin about the grille shutters and he told me that they are "dumb" at this point because they only close above 60 MPH instead of closing all the time and only opening when the engine needs to be cooled. Hopefully in the future Ford will design them as "smart" grille shutters that are usually closed and only open when needed.

I have posted elsewhere that shutters work off temps. I videoed them opening at 190deg.F and fully opened at 213deg.F. They're opening has nothing to do with speed, all my tests were done at 70mph. It is Hard to believe people are so miss informed at FORD.