Engine warmup/staying warm

[ptjones]

Where are the videos? I'm curious to see that

If you go to fordcmaxhybridforum.com and go to ptjones gallery it's shows my setup wires, laptop and camera. Sorry I didn't video capability at the time.

[ptjones]

It seems that Ford doesn't know how the grille shutters work...my selling dealer told me that they close right away when starting the car and then open based on temperature. The salesman said that their function is to reduce drag, so they are closed at all speeds, unless the engine gets warm enough that increased airflow to the radiator is needed, then they will open. He said that when he went to a class from Ford to learn about the new hybrids that they were told the above.

 

But then other "experts" at Ford have said that they only close at highway speeds.

 

This kind of makes me wonder if Ford changed the operation of the grille shutters from the early build cars to the later ones.

Sounds like the Salesman got it right. I'm wondering if Ford was trying to hide the real purpose from their competitors. Chevy new Lumina has them and they say there aerodynamic to improve MPG's. LOL :)

[acdii]

Well Had to go fill the tank today, so tested out with the grill fully covered, and no difference. At least it warms up faster now!

[ptjones]

Well Had to go fill the tank today, so tested out with the grill fully covered, and no difference. At least it warms up faster now!

What does no difference mean? If it takes less time to heat up, then you should be saving gas. Operating temp 202-212deg.F according to FORD is the most efficient temps. How did it do at 70mph?

[acdii]

181* Gets no warmer than that.

 

Observations though, when cold it charges up the pack to full and once full the MPG doubles. The only time I ever see the instant go over 40 when driving 55 is when its cold and wont go into EV. Looks like it uses more energy recharging the pack than is saved driving in EV. Maybe I can get better gas mileage if I can keep it out of EV.

[acdii]

Observation #2 I was right! This morning I tried to keep it out of EV above 55 as much as I could and with 3/4+ charge, I was seeing over 40 MPG on the ICE. On average I saw a 10 MPG increase when I could keep the speed up to not kicking over to EV. I then got behind someone in a Highlander who was not maintaining speed and got into EV, and lost 2 MPG on the trip meter. Overall I saw a 3 MPG gain by staying out of EV at highway speeds.

 

Normally my trip in I would be right around 31 until I got close to work, and it was up to 34 when I hit the city, then gained another 5 MPG going through the city. If I could have maintained the SOC at 75% I may have actually seen 40.

[ace8726872]

Observation #2 I was right! This morning I tried to keep it out of EV above 55 as much as I could and with 3/4+ charge, I was seeing over 40 MPG on the ICE. On average I saw a 10 MPG increase when I could keep the speed up to not kicking over to EV. I then got behind someone in a Highlander who was not maintaining speed and got into EV, and lost 2 MPG on the trip meter. Overall I saw a 3 MPG gain by staying out of EV at highway speeds.

 

Normally my trip in I would be right around 31 until I got close to work, and it was up to 34 when I hit the city, then gained another 5 MPG going through the city. If I could have maintained the SOC at 75% I may have actually seen 40.

 

Really stupid question acidity but how do you lose MPG in EV mode?

[acdii]

When it comes out of EV the ICE has to recharge the pack, that is when it loses MPG. This is where I found the largest difference between our 2010 and 2013. Above 45 MPH, the ICE is just used to propel the car, no charging is done, the 13 the ICE has to propel the car and charge the pack, so it does double work. When the pack is full then it can put all its energy into propelling the car, and then it becomes more efficient. Too bad I cant switch EV mode off at highway speeds.

 

As I think about this, the one thing that comes to mind is the resistance in the Lion pack may be higher than it is in most other cars. Since we are seeing a run of cars that are having the same issue built in the same week, maybe there is a bad batch of packs that have a few cells with higher resistance, and not balanced properly, so it take more energy to recharge them than others. It doesn't explain the plug fouling mine had, but could explain the overall lower MPG these are getting.

 

With my RC planes, with LiPo packs. if I have one cell out of the 3 that has higher resistance, it takes longer to recharge the entire pack and have to balance charge it, or one of both low resistance cells could overcharge and overheat. Lion packs I have dont use a balance jack, so not sure if the Lion pack in the Fusion does either.

 

I dont know if there is someway to check this with the scantools or laptop software. Would be nice to know if this is possible.

[Ric]

When it comes out of EV the ICE has to recharge the pack, that is when it loses MPG. This is where I found the largest difference between our 2010 and 2013. Above 45 MPH, the ICE is just used to propel the car, no charging is done, the 13 the ICE has to propel the car and charge the pack, so it does double work. When the pack is full then it can put all its energy into propelling the car, and then it becomes more efficient. Too bad I cant switch EV mode off at highway speeds.

 

As I think about this, the one thing that comes to mind is the resistance in the Lion pack may be higher than it is in most other cars. Since we are seeing a run of cars that are having the same issue built in the same week, maybe there is a bad batch of packs that have a few cells with higher resistance, and not balanced properly, so it take more energy to recharge them than others. It doesn't explain the plug fouling mine had, but could explain the overall lower MPG these are getting.

 

With my RC planes, with LiPo packs. if I have one cell out of the 3 that has higher resistance, it takes longer to recharge the entire pack and have to balance charge it, or one of both low resistance cells could overcharge and overheat. Lion packs I have dont use a balance jack, so not sure if the Lion pack in the Fusion does either.

 

I dont know if there is someway to check this with the scantools or laptop software. Would be nice to know if this is possible.

I read the battery pack periodally equalizes all the cells; if there is a problem equalizing the cells it lets you know.

[acdii]

It does it in the 2010 every so often, but hasn't done it yet in this car. Easy to know when, the ICE runs 100% of the time and NO EV.

[shaggy314]

Sounds more like going backwards, or maybe they are afraid of the mercury in CFL's or cant afford LED lighting.

I concur, candles put out soot and CO. Hand crank LED lighting sounds more efficient and safer on the house. It's like fireplaces, they look nice, but actually are good at cooling your house as it sucks in cold air everywhere but the 15 feet by the fire.

 

Primitive <> better.

 

Also: Lion = Simba, LiOn = battery. ;-)

Edited March 6, 2013 by shaggy314

[ptjones]

I thought I saw somewhere that the ScanGauge could be set up to give %charge and more.

[acdii]

It can do Xgauges, but I have no clue on how to set them up or to even know what to look for to do that. I prefer a good ol breakout box and multimeter over these computerized things.

[neod192]

It can do Xgauges, but I have no clue on how to set them up or to even know what to look for to do that. I prefer a good ol breakout box and multimeter over these computerized things.

Hey, does the ScanGause provide more info that a bluetooth OBDII scanner? I bought one recently for my Gti (to check and reset check engine codes) but plan on seeing what it can do on the FHH once I get it.

[acdii]

Not a clue. It will show a max of 4 gauges at a time, stores trip data. Current, previous and tank summaries. It can be programmed for quite a few different readouts, but I have not spent the time to figure out how its done. Right now I have mine configured to show instant MPG, Average MPG, RPM and water temp. It also does scanning and can reset codes.

[hybridbear]

Tell me if anyone else has noticed this with their grille shutters...I've noticed that when stopped idling even if the car is in drive the grille shutters will open, then once the car starts moving again they close.

 

Maybe this is what was meant when Gil from Ford called them "dumb". This shows that they are built for aerodynamics and not for warmth. This is why a cover like acdii built or other forms of blocking the grille are beneficial

[acdii]

From what I understand, the shutters have nothing to do with engine operation, which is further proved by the fact their $40K diagnostic tool doesn't have any information on their operation, and they are purely there for aerodynamics. The covers I added have to have added some aerodynamics to mine which is why I am finally seeing better MPG on the instant at highway speeds. They have helped greatly in keeping the engine warm, though the temps are still below what I see in my other car without grill covers. Peak temp today was 184*.

 

If you have seen the new chevy commercial they are advertising shutters now on certain cars for helping improve fuel economy.

[ptjones]

It appears we are having some confusion again about the shutters. They are closed until the ICE gets to 190deg.F I did my testing at 70mph and they were closed until 190deg.F. My brochure for the CMAX explains shutter operation. Here show wire to camera,camera in the grill with tape on shutter so I could see the shutter open and close and Laptop on passenger set so I could monitor shutters. http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?/gallery/sizes/270-brochure-c-max-hybrid-cover-set/large/

Edited March 6, 2013 by ptjones

[acdii]

Well of course they open at 190, Ford doesnt want the car to overheat. Most likely they cycle at highway speeds to cool down the engine and then close for better FE. The whole purpose is not to keep the heat in, but to decrease aerodynamic drag. If they were to help with keeping heat in, they would cover the entire radiator instead of leaving gaps between the blades.

 

They started putting shutters in the Focus a few years back and touted them as to increase fuel economy.

[ptjones]

IMO from the testing that I have done the only significant purpose of the shutters is for ICE temp control and any aero improvement is a side benefit and minimal at best. Did you read my brochure?

They did a much better job sealing off radiator on CMAX yet it still leaks like a sieve. On my Laptop I could watch at 70mph the shutters open and close from 190 to 213deg.F in four steps and close as the ICE would cool off all at 70mph going up and down hills on the hwy.

[KingJL]

IMO from the testing that I have done the only significant purpose of the shutters is for ICE temp control and any aero improvement is a side benefit and minimal at best. Did you read my brochure?

They did a much better job sealing off radiator on CMAX yet it still leaks like a sieve. On my Laptop I could watch at 70mph the shutters open and close from 190 to 213deg.F in four steps and close as the ICE would cool off all at 70mph going up and down hills on the hwy.

The first time I encounterd shutters was in 2011 with the 2012 Focus. These were pure and simple to reduce aerodynamic drag. It was the only difference between the high efficiency model and the SE and it resulted in a 3 MPG difference between the 2 (40 MPG vs 37 MPG). There were so many indiect paths for air flow to the radiator that it would make no difference at all to engine teperature (unless maybe if you were at full throttle for an extended time and then it wouldnt relflect in increased MPG). Not saying it does not help with ICE temp, but the purpose is reduced aerodynamic drag. Edited March 6, 2013 by KingJL

[hybridbear]

IMO from the testing that I have done the only significant purpose of the shutters is for ICE temp control and any aero improvement is a side benefit and minimal at best. Did you read my brochure?

They did a much better job sealing off radiator on CMAX yet it still leaks like a sieve. On my Laptop I could watch at 70mph the shutters open and close from 190 to 213deg.F in four steps and close as the ICE would cool off all at 70mph going up and down hills on the hwy.

 

The grille shutters are not there for temperature control. If they were then they wouldn't open when the car is turned off or when the car is stopped idling at a traffic light. There is some potential for the shutters to have a positive impact on ICE temps, but it appears that impact is minimal. Their primary function is aerodynamics

[ptjones]

The grille shutters are not there for temperature control. If they were then they wouldn't open when the car is turned off or when the car is stopped idling at a traffic light. There is some potential for the shutters to have a positive impact on ICE temps, but it appears that impact is minimal. Their primary function is aerodynamics

I hate to say this but show me any actual test that proves that the shutter improve aerodynamics. To get an aero improvement they have to be closed at speeds greater than 45mph and if the WT 190deg or more their open, no improvement. On the CMAX, two of us tested Grill Covers on our cars and got 2mpg improvement with covers. Now you members can put your on web cam in your grill and watch the shutters on your laptop and monitor your ScanGauge and let us know what you see. BTW if you turn on AC shutters open and fan turns on.

[acdii]

OK Time to put the Shutter debate to rest. Right from the Ford website

 

Aerodynamic Design

 

• Active grille shutters close to reduce drag

http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/trim/hybrid/

[ptjones]

To Clarify :

These quotes are from CMAX and FFH brochures "The standard Active Grille Shutters on the C-MAX help to reduce air resistance and increase fuel efficiency. When the Active Grille Shutters are fully closed, vehicle aerodynamics are improved by roughly 5 percent."

FFH"Active grille shutters close to reduce drag

Fully shielded underbody helps air pass smoothly underneath

Both features combine to reduce aerodynamic drag and increase efficiency"

 

No where in this does it say the shutters are speed activated and in fact it says there is aerodynamic improvement of roughly of 5% with shutters closed. So above 190deg.F your shutters start opening and you lose your aerodynamic improvement. They do increase efficiency by allowing the ICE to warmup quicker and retain heat too.

FORD's information is true but misleading kinda like 47/47/47.

 

Grill Covers do a better job of heating the car up even faster and reducing aerodynamic drag at 70mph by 2mpg. :)

Edited March 7, 2013 by ptjones