New MPG requirements

[Howie411]

http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/01/autos/cafe_standards_final/index.htm?hpt=T2

 

Wonder how this will hurt the resale value of our car if all cars are going to be required to only get 6 miles less per gallon.

[rfruth]

it's the CAFE numbers that are going up so all cars won't be directly affected (wish the article had explained that) if anything our resale value should go up some.

[xmech2k]

NEW cars.

[probowler]

Hmmm.... Here's hoping this has the effect of bumping future fusions gas millage too.

[sullied]

http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/01/autos/cafe_standards_final/index.htm?hpt=T2

 

Wonder how this will hurt the resale value of our car if all cars are going to be required to only get 6 miles less per gallon.

Why resell the car? It's such an amazing car...no need to get rid of it! Anyways, it shouldn't be about your car's resale value (in my opinion). It should be about the cleaner air and fewer emissions that will result from the new requirements. Hopefully it's not too little, too late.

[lolder]

Hmmm.... Here's hoping this has the effect of bumping future fusions gas millage too.

The FFH is getting the best mileage it can get. Only lowering the weight or decreasing the engine size or significant new technology will improve it. I expect it to remain relatively the same till they stop making this configuration. The eco-boost engines in the non hybrids may improve their mileage.

[akirby]

The FFH is getting the best mileage it can get. Only lowering the weight or decreasing the engine size or significant new technology will improve it. I expect it to remain relatively the same till they stop making this configuration. The eco-boost engines in the non hybrids may improve their mileage.

 

Don't you love how people just assume that mfrs will "turn a screw" and increase the fuel mileage to meet the new standards? If it was that easy they'd already be doing it.

[Rodeo]

Don't you love how people just assume that mfrs will "turn a screw" and increase the fuel mileage to meet the new standards? If it was that easy they'd already be doing it.

I totally disagree. We could have been getting the mileage we get today in cars 20 years ago, if not longer. Efforts and technologies that would greatly enhance fuel mileage have been bought up and squashed by big business, big oil and big politicians in bed with them all. Even today, hybrids are a scarce commodity on a dealers lot and production is artificially inhibited helping to maintain a high premium price and hindering demand. After all this time, they will now tell you that they can't build the batteries fast enough. Bullchit I say, that's just another excuse in a long line of excuses to keep OIL flowing into our cars and money flowing into their pockets. I'll bet China could build batteries fast enough.....

Edited April 2, 2010 by Rodeo

[rfruth]

If it was easy & profitable for them yes they'd already be doing it, till then the manufactures will drag their feet unless they have to improve, it's a shame someone needs to tell them it's time to do something after 100+ years (there have been improvements but not in the MPG dept) model T info

Edited April 2, 2010 by rfruth

[xmech2k]

After all this time, they will now tell you that they can't build the batteries fast enough. Bullchit I say, that's just another excuse in a long line of excuses to keep OIL flowing into our cars and money flowing into their pockets. I'll bet China could build batteries fast enough.....

 

I'm still not a big fan of hybrids as a solution to energy problems. Maybe it's a step in the right direction, but I have to wonder about the pollution created by producing and eventually disposing of those batteries.

 

It's like those compact flourescent bulbs. 'You have to have them or you're not green!' Well, what about the mecury contained in them? What's so green about that? Have you thrown one out in the trash?

 

But I digress.... Maybe hybrids are a step in the right direction, but I don't see it. At least it's a try. It looks like the MPG increase isn't so great to justify. I believe the solution will be more like fuel cell technology, and the 'green' production of hydrogen or whatever fuel they use, or something like that. Now excuse me while I get started on a chain of hydrogen and quick-charge electric 'gas' stations....

 

Oh yeah, and where do you suppose China will dump all the waste byproducts of battery production? There are reasons it's so cheap to make stuff there, so if you think that'll help save the planet, think again.

Edited April 2, 2010 by xmech2k

[Rodeo]

Agreed!

 

However the car companies are not holding gas mileage down with the thoughts of saving our planet either. They are doing it for other selfish reasons like financial profit and other gains coming from the big oil companies.

 

So those are two distinct seperate issues that shouldn't be confused with each other. The Car companies don't really give a rats azz about saving our planet, in spite of there current line of "green advertising," meant to appease us all.

[akirby]

I agree the car mfrs don't have a vested interest in saving the planet, but they do have a vested interest in selling vehicles and one thing that really sells vehicles right now is higher than average fuel economy. Look what Ford did with their recent vehicles - improving them by 3 or 4 mpg in one cycle. Their motivations may not be green but they are making cars as fuel efficient as they can because it's good for business.

 

I can't believe the "big oil" conspiracy theorists. There is no conspiracy. Manufacturers make whatever cars the public wants to buy (and so would any business that wants to stay in business). Blame consumers - they wanted big SUVs so that's what the mfrs made. Now they want smaller cars and hybrids and guess what - that's what the mfrs are making now.

 

What you people don't understand about fuel economy over the years is that cars back in the 70s and 80s had FAR less restrictions on emissions and FAR less safety requirements. Just because a Geo Metro got 50 mpg back in the 80s doesn't mean it can be done today because the rules are much different. Dial back the safety and emissions requirements to 1980 and today's vehicles will beat the pants off the older vehicles. Engines are not only more powerful but orders of magnitude more efficient now, it's just that with the added safety equipment and emissions controls you don't see it.

 

Do you honestly think that if Ford could easily increase mpg by 6 mpg per vehicle that they wouldn't do it? The new regulation may force consumers to buy smaller vehicles and more hybrids or electric vehicles but you're not going to see some magic increase in current vehicles just because the gov't "forced" the automakers to do it. Anybody who thinks that needs to take off their tinfoil hats and join the real world.

[akirby]

However the car companies are not holding gas mileage down with the thoughts of saving our planet either. They are doing it for other selfish reasons like financial profit and other gains coming from the big oil companies.

 

Please explain how a business seeking to make a profit is being "selfish". Do you work for free?

[xmech2k]

I agree totally with Akirby, and agree with him again. If I was running a business, I think I'd like to make a profit. What's with the people that think businesses and governments have bottomless pockets?

 

And if any car company could put out a 50+mpg mid-sized sedan that met all safety standards right now, you think they wouldn't do it? :hysterical: So the big oil conspiracy is controlling the auto industry conspiracy? They're all corporate big-wigs in suits out to make a buck.

 

And no, I'm not a business owner, I'm a blue-collar American worker also facing my job getting outsourced, wondering who's taxes will pay all the unemployment and healthcare bills when we're all out of work... Oh, I know, keep taxing those businesses so much they all leave.

 

Sorry for the rant. I guess it all ties together? Who said 'Life is politics'?

 

The Car companies don't really give a rats azz about saving our planet, in spite of there current line of "green advertising," meant to appease us all.

 

I have to agree with you there. I realized they, like all big businesses, are not in business to make a product, they are in business to make money.

Edited April 2, 2010 by xmech2k

[Rodeo]

Please explain how a business seeking to make a profit is being "selfish". Do you work for free?

 

By virtue of the definition of the word "selfish"

 

concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others

 

Source:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&defl=en&q=define:selfish&ei=n0y2S4OjFoL7lweV84Fd&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

 

Therefore, any Company engaged in the persuit of profit is therefore "selfish," with the only exclusions being non-profit Companies.

Why do you find my statement so offensive? You don't think they fit that given definition? Of course they're being selfish.

[dogo88]

I'm still not a big fan of hybrids as a solution to energy problems. Maybe it's a step in the right direction, but I have to wonder about the pollution created by producing and eventually disposing of those batteries.

 

It's like those compact flourescent bulbs. 'You have to have them or you're not green!' Well, what about the mecury contained in them? What's so green about that? Have you thrown one out in the trash?

 

But I digress.... Maybe hybrids are a step in the right direction, but I don't see it. At least it's a try. It looks like the MPG increase isn't so great to justify. I believe the solution will be more like fuel cell technology, and the 'green' production of hydrogen or whatever fuel they use, or something like that. Now excuse me while I get started on a chain of hydrogen and quick-charge electric 'gas' stations....

 

Oh yeah, and where do you suppose China will dump all the waste byproducts of battery production? There are reasons it's so cheap to make stuff there, so if you think that'll help save the planet, think again.

 

The hybrids are a step in the right direction, not the final solution. For me I traded in my 1999 Buick LeSabre which got a pretty good 17-20 mph around town for a FFH which gets a solid 35+ around town. I probably could get higher but sometimes you just got to step on the gas. My gas bill has been cut in half.

 

As far as the batteries, They are almost 100% recyclable. So they don't end up in the dumps. People aren't going to be pulling out the batteries from the hybrids and throwing them away. Why would they? At battery change time you'll go to a dealer or a battery exchange place.

 

China is cheap to make stuff there because their labor costs are dirt compared to ours. Plus, as far as battery production, their government offers much more incentives. We're just starting to realize that we need to invest in these "green" technologies.

 

Dan

[lolder]

This looks like it might be a good site to sell magnetic fuel vaporizers.

[xmech2k]

As far as the batteries, They are almost 100% recyclable. So they don't end up in the dumps. People aren't going to be pulling out the batteries from the hybrids and throwing them away. Why would they? At battery change time you'll go to a dealer or a battery exchange place.

 

China is cheap to make stuff there because their labor costs are dirt compared to ours. Plus, as far as battery production, their government offers much more incentives. We're just starting to realize that we need to invest in these "green" technologies.

 

Dan

 

 

Well it's good to hear the batts are recyclable. I didn't suggest they would be thrown out in the trash (Picture guy lugging 300 lb trash bin to curb), but I'm not aware of what they can do with them when they're used up. But I heard some nasty stories of all the byproducts just producing thebatteries makes. I saw one documentary about a place in China where a leather tanning company was dumping it's chemicals in the river out behind the factory, and all the farmers in the area can't grow anything any more... And of course, just like the US in the 60's, 70's, just try to take them to court on that in China. Hopefully they'll catch up some time. Anyways, if that's what those chemicals will do, I wonder what battery factory waste will do.

 

And with the cheap labor, also harkening way back 100+ yrs in US history, I saw a shirt factory there (For Wal-Mart, of course) where the employees HAVE to rent a company apartment and pay their share of the utilities as well. Even one girl who was living with her security guard boyfriend elsewhere still had to pay them utilities. And they where like military barracks practically.

[xmech2k]

I'm back. I feel bad because I think I totally hijacked this thread, so....

 

Anyone have any ideas on what mfgr's will do to get the mileage up this high? IIRC Toyota (Oh no!) had developed a Camry-sized car (Not for production, I think just a concept) that got like 60 MPG hwy quite a few years ago, but it was very lightweight, so I don't think it met with the safety standards. Can we reach the new MPG standards with gasoline engines and cars that are safe from our human ways? Maybe a combo of the magnetic fuel saver, Tornado gas saver, and the water fuel cell bring up the MPG enough?

[Juris]

The FFH is getting the best mileage it can get. Only lowering the weight or decreasing the engine size or significant new technology will improve it. I expect it to remain relatively the same till they stop making this configuration. The eco-boost engines in the non hybrids may improve their mileage.

 

For the FFH, they could find ways to reduce the weight, including the size of the battery.

 

It's also possible to add eco-boost to the hybrid design. I read a recent interview with a turbocharger engineer from Honeywell (Garrett turbos) who suggested this as a possibility -- turbocharging the gasoline engine in the hybrid.

[acdii]

Well, years ago they used carburetors, remember those? Cars would get 35-40 MPG with those, BUT EPA regulations made the use of one obsolete. The more emissions controls you throw at a car, the more it takes to make it work and still get fuel efficiency. For fuel to burn cleanly it must be at a 14.7:1 ratio, too high its lean, too low, its rich, and in either situation it produces harmful emissions, too lean and NOX shoots up, too low and unburnt fuel is expelled. So in order to get high MPG you need smaller engines, lighter smaller cars, which means come 2016, good luck finding a V6 in any car, it is just not possible to get 35 MPG out of one, and still produce the needed power. What you might see though are more diesels in cars. With Urea based clean burn diesels, getting 35-40 MPG is a snap. You will be seeing more hybrids though, a car the size of the Fusion works well with the hybrid, so people will just need to get used to the idea of not having the power they get now out of their cars. Our cars will be held onto a long time now.

[Juris]

I read an interview recently with a Garrett (Honeywell) engineer who said he thought we would be seeing hybrids with turbochargers (on the gasoline side). It would be interesting to have such a boost on my next FFH.

 

Here's a link: http://www.acarplace.com/cars/turbochargers.html

Edited April 3, 2010 by Juris

[lolder]

It's all related to Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption. All internal ICEs have a narrow range of efficiency between about 30 and 50 %. Most are between 30 and 40 %. The 50+ % efficiency is in a 97,000 hp. marine diesel in the worlds largest container ship. The limit is caused by how hot you can run an engine. Cooling an engine to about 200 d. F. to protect metal parts wastes energy. They tested a ceramic engine that was uncooled but it was not durable. Research continues. There is no magic bullet. Weight and friction are the culprits. All improvements are at exponentially increasing costs. There is a mid-size 50 mpg reliable safe car. It's a Prius. If you don't like them, there's the 40 mpg FFH. Starting and stopping turbo diesel and gas engines in hybrid use has challenges that they are working on and will probably solve. Basic engine efficiency is much more difficult. When you realize all this, The hybrids are a good solution for now.

[Rodeo]

So in order to get high MPG you need smaller engines, lighter smaller cars, which means come 2016, good luck finding a V6 in any car, it is just not possible to get 35 MPG out of one, and still produce the needed power.

 

So then, why all the emphasis to keep building bigger and more powerful V6s and to upgrade cars as they get facelifts with bigger motors such as the 3.5 and 3.7 from Ford? 2016 isn't that far in the future and you would think we'd begin to see some of the alternatives sooner rather then later. Someone mentioned Diesel and yes, I would love to see some diesel alternatives in the cars we drive today. I'd also like to see some alternative vehicles driven by Hydrogen or even some solar charged cars as well. Hydrogen has allot of vehicle potential yet you don't ever hear any of the big auto Companies discuss this alternative. Why is that? Big Oil is the answer, Big profits, Big partnerships, Big back door agreements, etc. etc.

 

 

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/

[lolder]

So then, why all the emphasis to keep building bigger and more powerful V6s and to upgrade cars as they get facelifts with bigger motors such as the 3.5 and 3.7 from Ford? 2016 isn't that far in the future and you would think we'd begin to see some of the alternatives sooner rather then later. Someone mentioned Diesel and yes, I would love to see some diesel alternatives in the cars we drive today. I'd also like to see some alternative vehicles driven by Hydrogen or even some solar charged cars as well. Hydrogen has allot of vehicle potential yet you don't ever hear any of the big auto Companies discuss this alternative. Why is that? Big Oil is the answer, Big profits, Big partnerships, Big back door agreements, etc. etc.

 

 

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/

They've been working on hydrogen for years. There's a lot of reasons you don't see much hydrogen around. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy. More than 90% of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels. Hydrogen does not occur freely in the natural world and is not a fuel. It has to be manufactured. It is an energy carrier like electricity. Fossil fuels can be burned right out of the ground. Electric vehicles are 3 to 4 times more efficient than H fuel cell vehicles. See this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Battery_EV_vs._Hydrogen_EV.png/700px-Battery_EV_vs._Hydrogen_EV.png. Read the above article and you will see how far away we are from a hydrogen economy. I wish it weren't true.

Edited April 4, 2010 by lolder