Question for those that have had the update or.......

[oldschool1962]

.....those that have not had braking issues.

 

I really need help getting these questions answered by someone else that has had the Brake update performed or not had the need for the update. I think the update only pertains to FFH's manufactured prior to November 1, 2009.

 

The conditions I am looking for are the car has been run so the ICE and battery packs are adequately warmed as well as the car has been turned off and restarted several times. Good time to pay attention to this is when you are running quick errands but it is not necessary. If the car has been off for more than several minutes is fine as well......I think..

 

 

After starting the car, allowing all the systems to boot up and then driving off.....when you apply the brakes.........does the car show the regen icon or does the icon not appear.? Iam using the 3rd setting so I actually have that green recycle icon and I can't remember if all the settings use this or some form of gauge to show the regen process.

 

If it does not appear, how long after you begin driving does it take the icon to appear?

 

The HV battery state of charge is not realevant but I would like to know at what level the charge indicator is showing if the icon appears or does not appear.

 

Do you notice any difference in the pedal feel, pressure or otherwise.......... related to how the car brakes? Without the Icon? With the Icon?

 

That is all for now and I will explain after I can get a few answeres to these questions. Let me thank everyone in advance any and all the help that can be provided.

Edited February 10, 2010 by oldschool1962

[Oman]

I just went from the April software to the latest February update. It has been in for one day (3 driving sessions).

 

The car now requires about 1 mile of driving before showing the regen braking symbol. The engine braking works immediately (up arrow on battery when letting off the accelerator). Previously it would use regen braking as soon as the car was running for about a minute.

 

The brakes feel exactly the same no matter if the display shows regen braking or not.

 

Jon

 

 

.....those that have not had braking issues.

 

I really need help getting these questions answered by someone else that has had the Brake update performed or not had the need for the update. I think the update only pertains to FFH's manufactured prior to November 1, 2009.

 

The conditions I am looking for are the car has been run so the ICE and battery packs are adequately warmed as well as the car has been turned off and restarted several times. Good time to pay attention to this is when you are running quick errands but it is not necessary. If the car has been off for more than several minutes is fine as well......I think..

 

 

After starting the car, allowing all the systems to boot up and then driving off.....when you apply the brakes.........does the car show the regen icon or does the icon not appear.? Iam using the 3rd setting so I actually have that green recycle icon and I can't remember if all the settings use this or some form of gauge to show the regen process.

 

If it does not appear, how long after you begin driving does it take the icon to appear?

 

The HV battery state of charge is not realevant but I would like to know at what level the charge indicator is showing if the icon appears or does not appear.

 

Do you notice any difference in the pedal feel, pressure or otherwise.......... related to how the car brakes? Without the Icon? With the Icon?

 

That is all for now and I will explain after I can get a few answeres to these questions. Let me thank everyone in advance any and all the help that can be provided.

[oldschool1962]

I just went from the April software to the latest February update. It has been in for one day (3 driving sessions).

 

The car now requires about 1 mile of driving before showing the regen braking symbol. The engine braking works immediately (up arrow on battery when letting off the accelerator). Previously it would use regen braking as soon as the car was running for about a minute.

 

The brakes feel exactly the same no matter if the display shows regen braking or not.

 

Jon

 

Jon,

 

Hypothetically speaking of course......

 

Why is it that the reprogram doesn't allow the regen to work for the first mile?

 

What if you drove the car for 300 miles worth of driving after the reprogram was performed and the regen worked every time you stepped on the brake......no matter what and then it automatically stopped?

 

What about if the little blue regen arrow that appears when you coast were not to appear but also disappear when you stepped on the brake?

 

and finally...........

 

What if there were a different pedal and stopping feel when the regen icon didn't appear?

[Oman]

If this had been going on for a while (it can take 15 good continuous highway like miles or so to complete a battery conditioning) then I would take my car in and tell them it is acting strange. I would watch the battery gauge. It can only charge by the ICE running or with regen braking. If the battery drains in EV mode and then just "comes up" while braking then the display would have to be wrong. In any event there seems to be something going wrong assuming you are not in a battery conditioning cycle - the problem will be in convincing your dealer that it isn't your imagination.

 

Jon

 

 

Jon,

 

Hypothetically speaking of course......

 

Why is it that the reprogram doesn't allow the regen to work for the first mile?

 

What if you drove the car for 300 miles worth of driving after the reprogram was performed and the regen worked every time you stepped on the brake......no matter what and then it automatically stopped?

 

What about if the little blue regen arrow that appears when you coast were not to appear but also disappear when you stepped on the brake?

 

and finally...........

 

What if there were a different pedal and stopping feel when the regen icon didn't appear?

[lolder]

I just went from the April software to the latest February update. It has been in for one day (3 driving sessions).

 

The car now requires about 1 mile of driving before showing the regen braking symbol. The engine braking works immediately (up arrow on battery when letting off the accelerator). Previously it would use regen braking as soon as the car was running for about a minute.

 

The brakes feel exactly the same no matter if the display shows regen braking or not.

 

Jon

 

My typical drive is a mile. Does that mean I'll have little regen braking and energy recovery? That's a bummer.

[Oman]

Yep, at least when it is cool out. The engine needs to warm up to temp before most of the goodies can do their magic. If you do 1 mile per trip and 50 trips per day then the engine would be warm but there still is an initial start-up each time.

 

Jon

 

 

My typical drive is a mile. Does that mean I'll have little regen braking and energy recovery? That's a bummer.

[oldschool1962]

Theoretically....can the system get stuck in a reconditioning cycle without there being an error light, warning sirens or........

 

My knowledge of computers and software ends after I hit the power-up button on computers. :doh:

 

The car just hit 6100 miles so when would a typical reconditioning cycle begin? The answer would or may need to know that the system has been completely reset 4 times now through downloading info off of several or all of the control modules.

 

Is it based off of mileage?

 

Battery charge and discharge cycles?

 

Time?

 

Or a combination of any or all of the afore mentioned.

 

I certainly liked Robert D. Raifords take on cars this morning.......hit my sentiments exactly. :headspin:

 

I'm also in agreement with you Lee if this first mile is the case. There is an great deal of energy lost if the system is not going to charge for the first mile evertime you start and restart the car.....that's knowing that the battery is only good for a mile at 25 miles an hour from a state of full charge. What good is capturing the energy and using the system as a selling point if it doesn't work for all, half or a third of most trips in the city or small town? Just for the record our city measures 3miles X 4miles and the longest trip on average outside that is 6 miles. Lotsa energy lost

 

I have to ask why the change from what theing were like when the cars were purchased?

Edited February 10, 2010 by oldschool1962

[oldschool1962]

Yep, at least when it is cool out. The engine needs to warm up to temp before most of the goodies can do their magic. If you do 1 mile per trip and 50 trips per day then the engine would be warm but there still is an initial start-up each time.

 

Jon

 

Another question regarding the engine temp...........why does the regen not work if the engine is adequately warmed up or in other words the car has been off for less than 5 minutes and the display shows the temperature in the midrange of the scale?

 

I haven't heard back from Ford yet as they have my car for all of the things I have mentioned in the post. I guess there is more to it than me being crazy. I would hope that they would have let me know something if there wasn't a problem. :waiting:

Edited February 10, 2010 by oldschool1962

[ICEY]

.....those that have not had braking issues.

 

I really need help getting these questions answered by someone else that has had the Brake update performed or not had the need for the update. I think the update only pertains to FFH's manufactured prior to November 1, 2009.

 

The conditions I am looking for are the car has been run so the ICE and battery packs are adequately warmed as well as the car has been turned off and restarted several times. Good time to pay attention to this is when you are running quick errands but it is not necessary. If the car has been off for more than several minutes is fine as well......I think..

 

 

After starting the car, allowing all the systems to boot up and then driving off.....when you apply the brakes.........does the car show the regen icon or does the icon not appear.? Iam using the 3rd setting so I actually have that green recycle icon and I can't remember if all the settings use this or some form of gauge to show the regen process.

 

If it does not appear, how long after you begin driving does it take the icon to appear?

 

The HV battery state of charge is not realevant but I would like to know at what level the charge indicator is showing if the icon appears or does not appear.

 

Do you notice any difference in the pedal feel, pressure or otherwise.......... related to how the car brakes? Without the Icon? With the Icon?

 

That is all for now and I will explain after I can get a few answeres to these questions. Let me thank everyone in advance any and all the help that can be provided.

 

 

First of all did not know there was a brake upgrade. My FFH has 7500 mi. and was made pre Nov '09. My brake regen icon (little circle of arrows around battery) starts after about a mile. I think it always has and I just figured that was normal. This is from a cold start. Once warm the circle of arrows is always there when braking. Never noticed a change in pedal response.

 

Steve

[FFHdriver]

First of all did not know there was a brake upgrade. My FFH has 7500 mi. and was made pre Nov '09. My brake regen icon (little circle of arrows around battery) starts after about a mile. I think it always has and I just figured that was normal. This is from a cold start. Once warm the circle of arrows is always there when braking. Never noticed a change in pedal response.

 

Steve

A question for those of you who have had the brake update done, did you get a letter from Ford about it before you took it to the dealer? TIA

[lolder]

In milder Florida, my regen brakes have always worked from the start whether the ICE is running or not. Will the upgrade change that? I understand that in cold weather the computer may not let the HVB accept regen braking until the battery warms a little. What do you think, Oman?

[lolder]

First of all did not know there was a brake upgrade. My FFH has 7500 mi. and was made pre Nov '09. My brake regen icon (little circle of arrows around battery) starts after about a mile. I think it always has and I just figured that was normal. This is from a cold start. Once warm the circle of arrows is always there when braking. Never noticed a change in pedal response.

 

Steve

 

The brake software apparently changed on cars manufactured after the middle of Oct., 09. Look on you placard at bottom of drivers door sill; it tells manufacturing month and year in upper left corner after "Date".

[oldschool1962]

In milder Florida, my regen brakes have always worked from the start whether the ICE is running or not. Will the upgrade change that? I understand that in cold weather the computer may not let the HVB accept regen braking until the battery warms a little. What do you think, Oman?

 

I know I'm not Jon here but I have a couple comments regarding your question Lee.

 

That was how it was explained to me but mine did the regen from the start even on morning that the temp was 15 deg. It also didn't do it consistently. Some days it wouldn't do it from the start even if it was 60 degrees out side and others it did. This would happen for days on end and then it would just stop.

 

Remember that the regen was happening from the time they did the upgrade until this morning or around 6 cycles of turning the car on and off.

 

The other thing I wanted to mention was that when the regen does quit working....or I should say the icon doesn't show up in the display......when I apply the brakes they grab. They respond exactly like the hydraulic brakes just kicked in but there is not inch or two in pedal travel but it's lessened almost stiff.. When the Icon appears again, the brakes have a softer approach to slowing the car like there are using the CVT to....well do it's job in regen and they have more travel in the pedal before the car starts to grab.

 

I don't know how else to explain things. but this is and has gotten very frustrating :drop:

 

I was so elated last night after I parked the car. I mean I was really happy since what was performed actually made a difference and believe me I was sceptically the entire time. Even this morning when I went out to drive my wife to her meeting place I couldn't believe that all worked as it had when I turned the car off and then again when I went to run the ESN #'s to the Dealer.

 

I just don't understand how it can work one way for close to 300 miles of driving and then quit only to be chalked up to????????

 

How many variables can there be with one person driving the car over the same roads on the same routes at the same speeds with the same acceleration and braking being performed the same way each and every day? I mean I spent a career life as an Executive Chef perfecting my repetition and consistency just as a golfer perfects that all important muscle memory. In fact I also played golf, skied and raced cars so I actually can grasp the whole concept.

 

It's programing and it's supposed to be repetetive and consistant....isn't it?????? :blink:

[RWFFH10]

A question for those of you who have had the brake update done, did you get a letter from Ford about it before you took it to the dealer? TIA

 

I took my car in last Friday the day after for announced the free software update. You do not need to wait for a letter from Ford (if your vehicle was manufactured after Oct '09 you have the new software already). I for one had considerable brake noise when braking at low speeds just before coming to a stop. This happed frequently such as when stopping just before pulling out of a parking lot. I haven't heard the squeal since the update. Also for my Fusion the brake feels much different to me than before. I need to use less brake pressure than I use to. My Fusion was manufactured last April.

[ICEY]

The brake software apparently changed on cars manufactured after the middle of Oct., 09. Look on you placard at bottom of drivers door sill; it tells manufacturing month and year in upper left corner after "Date".

 

Right. Thanks. I just saw the Consumer Reports article about this upgrade. Haven't received a letter yet but will check with Ford dealer.

 

Steve

[ICEY]

Not to add anymore confusuion than already is there but my wife read/heard sometime back that Toyota licensed a lot of its hybrid technology to Ford. Myth??? Don not know. But is is interesting.

 

Steve

[oldschool1962]

Not to add anymore confusion than already is there but my wife read/heard sometime back that Toyota licensed a lot of its hybrid technology to Ford. Myth??? Don not know. But is is interesting.

 

Steve

 

I had believed that too but while talking to Tazzboo at the dealership yesterday he explained that in order to not have to fight with copyright suits Ford really developed their own system. Granted it looks like the Gen II Prius stuff....or so I am told as well.......but it's all Ford. Save maybe the software? Aren't there companies contracted by the Manufacturers to handle this and could they be the same company?

 

Just one last thing to add. I came up with it while talking to the DW....Dear Wife.

 

A car like any piece of technology is intended to perform a specific function and by design our Hybrids are all intended to perform the basically the same way. It is not an unreasonable expectation to go out to the car and expect it to start every time. It's also not unreasonable to expect ones car to perform the same day in and day out just as the countless others out there of the same make and model do. So when systems of the car perform erratically what is one to expect and not be looked upon as being unreasonable.

 

The FFH by design, sales brochures, reviews and other sources was intended to perform in a specific manner. All I expect is the car to perform to the level of consistency and quality that was sold to me as the purchasing consumer. I am allowing Ford to do everything they can or at least will do to rectify the situation but.......Ford has to do whatever it is capable of to meet me half way and fix the vehicle and if that means throwing a whole slew of modules at the car then so be it. I am not asking that my FFH perform differently or better than any other FFH out there but rather it perform as good as even an FFH that rolled of the line last month, last week or next week. The one thing they can't do and from this point forward I will not allow is accuse me of wanting the car to act to meet what I "think" the car should do. I was accused of this by one of the Service advisor's at Haley Ford today ands believe me that I am not happy about it. I'm not a wet behind the ears.......... I've been driving cars for close to 35 years now so don't insult me with that thought. Yet In a way I do want the car to perform to what I expect only because of the level of expectation set by Ford and it's representatives. Again nothing unreasonable in that.

[lrymal]

I had believed that too but while talking to Tazzboo at the dealership yesterday he explained that in order to not have to fight with copyright suits Ford really developed their own system.

Little bit more to it than this. Toyota pioneered a lot of patents on concept--smart. Meetings were held to license some of the concepts, 21 of them, to Ford. The only "shared" hardware was the high voltage to 12 volt converter -- I THINK. Ford and Toyota wanted to avoid a really messy situation. GM and Chrysler were invited to participate and refused.

 

So, Ford was able to contract with the same companies that developed the same 4 cylinder motor, generators, and propulsion system (Can't recall my source for this). Toyota's concepts were protected and Ford was able to place its own R&D into the mix. This sort of sharing is more common than not.

 

For that matter, notice that Ford, or Toyota for that matter, doesn't pay Honda for anything related to it's hybrid technology. And Honda was first to the market with a modern Hybrid car.

[Zacher]

This whole Cold regen braking thing is absolutely true or at least I relate it to the batteries being cold. Where I live it can be anywhere from -10C to -30C, and of course I warm up my vehicle. Once when I wanted to move the car quickly to let the grader go by I had no regen braking, it was straight hydraulics, and I didn't notice a difference in the peddle, but I felt the brakes "grab" harder and quicker. I could tell there was no regen, and verified by there being no icon. I let the car sit for 10 min running (don't like to start and stop at -21C as it was that day), and when I moved the car, the regen was working.

 

Just my 2 cents/experience, and I do NOT have the upgrade... yet.

[lolder]

I had believed that too but while talking to Tazzboo at the dealership yesterday he explained that in order to not have to fight with copyright suits Ford really developed their own system. Granted it looks like the Gen II Prius stuff....or so I am told as well.......but it's all Ford. Save maybe the software? Aren't there companies contracted by the Manufacturers to handle this and could they be the same company?

 

Just one last thing to add. I came up with it while talking to the DW....Dear Wife.

 

A car like any piece of technology is intended to perform a specific function and by design our Hybrids are all intended to perform the basically the same way. It is not an unreasonable expectation to go out to the car and expect it to start every time. It's also not unreasonable to expect ones car to perform the same day in and day out just as the countless others out there of the same make and model do. So when systems of the car perform erratically what is one to expect and not be looked upon as being unreasonable.

 

The FFH by design, sales brochures, reviews and other sources was intended to perform in a specific manner. All I expect is the car to perform to the level of consistency and quality that was sold to me as the purchasing consumer. I am allowing Ford to do everything they can or at least will do to rectify the situation but.......Ford has to do whatever it is capable of to meet me half way and fix the vehicle and if that means throwing a whole slew of modules at the car then so be it. I am not asking that my FFH perform differently or better than any other FFH out there but rather it perform as good as even an FFH that rolled of the line last month, last week or next week. The one thing they can't do and from this point forward I will not allow is accuse me of wanting the car to act to meet what I "think" the car should do. I was accused of this by one of the Service advisor's at Haley Ford today ands believe me that I am not happy about it. I'm not a wet behind the ears.......... I've been driving cars for close to 35 years now so don't insult me with that thought. Yet In a way I do want the car to perform to what I expect only because of the level of expectation set by Ford and it's representatives. Again nothing unreasonable in that.

 

Does your dealer have an employee that regularly drives a FFH that could drive your car for several days? The known regen inhibitions are caused by cold batteries (common in northlands), full batteries (less common), and reconditioning events (rare). The update may add something else. There may be a difference in pre and post Oct. cars that is also the software.

[oldschool1962]

Does your dealer have an employee that regularly drives a FFH that could drive your car for several days? The known regen inhibitions are caused by cold batteries (common in northlands), full batteries (less common), and reconditioning events (rare). The update may add something else. There may be a difference in pre and post Oct. cars that is also the software.

 

My car has a Sept 2009 build date. and my sales person's Brother-in-law drives a FFH. There are none of the issues I am speaking of or brought to their attention that are happening to those vehicles nor.....by the dealers own admission any of the FFH's they've sold. Yet the Service Tech has seen and experienced many of the things. All along he was told by Ford Tech line that they were normal. Now we find that there actually was an issues judging by the Reprograming Customer Service Event or ...............Recall.

 

Tazzboo bought a car from the same dealer and his car was done on a DX just as mine was only he initiated his. I was told by my sales person that they wanted a FFH with a 502A and did a trade with Sheehy Ford....another area dealer. Actually in speaking with him,.....he drove my car when it was at the other dealer. Even his car wasn't exhibiting the issues I was or from what I understand so maybe he could confirm it here.

[Tazzboo]

Oldschool

 

I'm sorry to hear your still having problems with your ride. Yes indeed my car was DX from a northern VA Dealership. It had almost 1300 miles on it when I got it. We wanted a Silver car with the Black leather Interior with the 502a package. I did indeed test drive your car while it was at Sheehy at least I am almost certain I did. When test driving the car I did not experience the problems that you are explaining. However, I was a newb when it comes to the car and all the bells and whistles got the best of us. We were drooling! :car:

 

Now as far as our car we do have to wait a bit for the car to warm up for the regen to start working. Now the brakes to me feel the same with or with out the regen circle display coming on. I have not noticed any difference in the before and after driving feelings of car since the update. Now I am pretty particular with my cars. Being a Pilot you grow accustom to being overly sensitive to things that you are operating. My wife drove the car this morning 25 miles to work and didn't mention any differences in the car either.

 

Above you quoted me, I just want to show were I got my information from about Ford using there own technology in this car that they came up with.

 

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/06/03/ford-fusion-hybrid-the-most-patented-car-in-history/

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/05/editorial-attention-i-wall-street-journal-i-ford-does-b-n/

 

Check it out pretty interesting write ups.

 

TAZZBOO

Edited February 13, 2010 by Tazzboo

[ICEY]

Oldschool

 

I'm sorry to hear your still having problems with your ride. Yes indeed my car was DX from a northern VA Dealership. It had almost 1300 miles on it when I got it. We wanted a Silver car with the Black leather Interior with the 502a package. I did indeed test drive your car while it was at Haley at least I am almost certain I did. When test driving the car I did not experience the problems that you are explaining. However, I was a newb when it comes to the car and all the bells and whistles got the best of us. We were drooling! :car:

 

Now as far as our car we do have to wait a bit for the car to warm up for the regen to start working. Now the brakes to me feel the same with or with out the regen circle display coming on. I have not noticed any difference in the before and after driving feelings of car since the update. Now I am pretty particular with my cars. Being a Pilot you grow accustom to being overly sensitive to things that you are operating. My wife drove the car this morning 25 miles to work and didn't mention any differences in the car either.

 

Above you quoted me, I just want to show were I got my information from about Ford using there own technology in this car that they came up with.

 

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/06/03/ford-fusion-hybrid-the-most-patented-car-in-history/

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/05/editorial-attention-i-wall-street-journal-i-ford-does-b-n/

 

Check it out pretty interesting write ups.

 

TAZZBOO

 

 

I checked out your info on the Ford technology. That was interesting reading those articles and cleared up a misperception on my part. Thanks

 

Steve

[akirby]

Ford developed the Escape hybrid totally on their own. While reviewing Toyota's patents they discovered 21 that were very similar to software that they had already developed and rather than risk Toyota filing a patent infringement suit, they negotiated with Toyota to swap those 21 patents for some Ford patents that Toyota wanted which I believe were related to Diesel truck engines. At no time did Ford get any technical assistance from Toyota or use Toyota technology.

 

For the FFH, Ford rewrote the software in question so that it no longer infringed on those Toyota patents, therefore there are no Toyota patents in play for the FFH at all.

 

Just look at the fuel mileage of the FFH versus the Camry hybrid and it should be obvious they don't share anything.

[Oman]

Ford developed their own hybrid system but realized early on that parts of the technology would be "encumbered" by Toyota patents. Toyota very much wanted to use a number of patents that Ford had on diesel engines. They came up with an arrangement where Ford would be licensing the hybrid patents in question and Toyota would be licensing the diesel patents they wanted. This also allowed them to share a primary hybrid parts supplier without worries which helps them both. Aisin builds the hybrid portion that bolts onto the ICE and contains the controller/converter, MG1, MG2, and the power splitter. The concept of how it works is the same in the Prius and the FFH but the design is completely Ford and Toyota.

 

The software is where most of the magic happens. They both developed their own software for making everything work.

 

BTW: The Ford and Toyota braking systems are completely different in design but share the same hybrid concept (use the traction motor for braking whenever you can, then use the friction brakes).

 

Jon

 

 

Little bit more to it than this. Toyota pioneered a lot of patents on concept--smart. Meetings were held to license some of the concepts, 21 of them, to Ford. The only "shared" hardware was the high voltage to 12 volt converter -- I THINK. Ford and Toyota wanted to avoid a really messy situation. GM and Chrysler were invited to participate and refused.

 

So, Ford was able to contract with the same companies that developed the same 4 cylinder motor, generators, and propulsion system (Can't recall my source for this). Toyota's concepts were protected and Ford was able to place its own R&D into the mix. This sort of sharing is more common than not.

 

For that matter, notice that Ford, or Toyota for that matter, doesn't pay Honda for anything related to it's hybrid technology. And Honda was first to the market with a modern Hybrid car.