Ford quality (?) - buying new hybrid

[Zack]

Hi everybody,

 

New member, just registered and coming up with big dilemma. It is old question Prius of FFH?

Here are the facts I learned from both FFH and Prius forums (condensed version):

 

* Prius 2010 has best MPG (50 or something like that)

* FFH is MPG second, before Camry hybrid

* FFH has coolest cabin

* Prius and Camry have highest reliability marks, specially Prius has highest owner satisfaction best reliability of all cars (see Consumers Magazine) sold in US

* FFH costs more than Prius, similar to Camry but fully loaded is somewhat less (depending what you take)

 

Hanging around http://priuschat.com I learned that it is almost freakland over there. Most of the people posting are so obsessed with their MPG and Priuses that they have transformed into chameleons. One eye looking forward and second on on MFD to watch MPG numbers. Statements like: " ...I ruined my perfect MPG today... had to drive uphill so it dropped to 45 from 55...). I mean it is getting ridiculous. Common sense is thrown out of the window. What I want to say is that you can get true picture and answers from Prius crowd so that info about super reliability, no repairs and so on maybe not 100% true.

 

Going back to FFH I am all for it.

 

* I like the style - it is best looking American made car at this moment, simply gorgeous

* Like performance - true hybrid specs, MPG and all that

* American made - released at perfect time in history, we should all buy (at least) one and help Ford, economy and in turn ourselves

* Cabin - very nice one, much nicer than Prius/Camry

* Gadgets, add-ons - nice selection, would prefer XM over Sirius but that is not a deal breaker

* Colors - white is fine but will be missing tan leather/interior

* Price - have to visit Canadian showroom to see where are we at (it is usually more than in USA)

 

So all conclusions are "go" except last one. Here is my biggest doubt. Toyota cars ARE very good. It's a fact. Where we really stand at for Fusion Hybrid reliability? It is sure too early to say since car is not out long enough, but looking overall to Ford cars reliability? So far doesn't sound encouraging. I mean you pay more for hybrid, save money on gas, buy American but if there is one or more major repairs down the road combined with low resale value that plagues all American made cars that would negate all the money savings, right?

 

I would really appreciate honest opinions on this.

 

Regards,

Zack

[rlawson4]

The FFH is the #1 Midsize car according to US NEWS AND WORLD REPORT. http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-..._Fusion-Hybrid/

 

Their ranking is based on a culmination of 11 published reviews.

 

the Prius is tied for 4th http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-...e-Midsize-Cars/

 

And, the ride of the Prius just stinks. I test drove it and knew immediately that I would not want to drive long distances (which I do), in that car. I love the FFH. It rides and handles as well or better than my Acura TL 2006. No Prius owner could say that. Mileage is important, but remember you spend a great deal of time in your car.

[Ranger_Rick]

This FFH is my third new Ford (84 Escort, 97 Ranger, 2010 Fusion). If you can believe me, the battery in my Ranger lasted 11 years, which I think says a lot about how reliable Fords are. Ford will always remain competitive, will always be durable. I can't formulate an opinion about the reliability of the FFH; ask me after one year; but I certainly enjoy opening the door, getting into the seat, getting onto the road and driving somewhere.

[Zack]

Read the reviews and found a lot of useful info there. Predicted reliability is ranked at 8 and Toyota's 10. Hopefully will improve as time goes by. Like Ranger_Rick said, ask me in year.

[jeff_h]

Here is my feedback after just owning a Prius for 128,000 miles.

 

Going back to FFH I am all for it.

 

* I like the style - (I agree, I thought my Prius was shaped like taco shell, and now I think the new Prius look too "spaceshippy" if that makes sense)

* Like performance - (this term is highly subjective, to some that means responsive hammering on the gas, to others it's all MPG as you noted in your post)

* American made - (well, sort of... it's assembled in Mexico, but it is an American company)

* Cabin - (far better than the Prius, IMHO)

* Gadgets, add-ons - (SYNC is great, and Sirius includes a few XM stations too)

* Colors - (again, very subjective, I would have liked dark blue but it wassn't available in hybrid, oh well)

* Price - (in the US the FFH is higher but that is offset by a $1,700 tax credit until 30 Sep, I don't know that any Canuck-equivalent exists)

 

I used to browse and participate in the forums on priuschat and priusonline too, and there are some MPG fanatics like like there are here, to each his own, as some are more honed in on the sound system or other parts of the vehicle.

 

I was in the same boat a few months ago, wondering if I should get another Prius or switch to the FFH. I am very glad I chose the FFH as the MPG hit is not that bad (I am now averaging 41 where I got 51 in the Prius), the sound system is FAR better in the FFH (although I am no audio aficionado as others that you will read posts from, more power to them I just like the sound much better), and the ride is also FAR better in the FFH (don't just compare rides in the front seat, compare rides in the back seat and feel for yourself).

 

Also, I really was not concerned with the reliability of Ford with a hybrid system, my wife has had an Escape hybrid for almost 4 years now and the only thing that has ever gone wrong was some venting fan for the hybrid battery that was fixed in an hour. The only recall I can remember was a wiring harness that had to be replaced, another job was done in under an hour while I waited.

 

My Prius was recalled for a steering shaft knuckle replacement, a job that took 3 hours but also nothing huge. I was also driving down the road at 33,000 miles and all of my warning lights went off, I got to the dealer and found that an electric water pump died which I thought was odd at 33,000 miles. Then at 75,000 miles I went to get my engine belt replaced and they found a leaking axle seal, which I guess is a minor thing that can happen to any car. So to that end, and looking at any reliability data, these brands are equal and both quality vehicles. Many people still have the "Japanese is better" paradigm, which I don't think is true based on data that I've seen and certainly not true based on my own experience. But everyone I guess will have an opinion whether it's based on real data or anecdotal evidence, that's something that will never change when it comes to one brand or another as there are a couple brands that I would absolutely never own (because I've driven them as new rental cars for a few thousand miles and have some experience with them and would not pay $1,000 for any of them), but that's just me.

 

So again, with Ford having plenty of data and lessons learned from making thousands of FEHs, I believe they've put into the design and production of the FFH and I have no worries there.

 

Good luck!

[fsb99]

Hi everybody,

 

New member, just registered and coming up with big dilemma. It is old question Prius of FFH?

Here are the facts I learned from both FFH and Prius forums (condensed version):

 

* Prius 2010 has best MPG (50 or something like that)

* FFH is MPG second, before Camry hybrid

* FFH has coolest cabin

* Prius and Camry have highest reliability marks, specially Prius has highest owner satisfaction best reliability of all cars (see Consumers Magazine) sold in US

* FFH costs more than Prius, similar to Camry but fully loaded is somewhat less (depending what you take)

 

Hanging around http://priuschat.com I learned that it is almost freakland over there. Most of the people posting are so obsessed with their MPG and Priuses that they have transformed into chameleons. One eye looking forward and second on on MFD to watch MPG numbers. Statements like: " ...I ruined my perfect MPG today... had to drive uphill so it dropped to 45 from 55...). I mean it is getting ridiculous. Common sense is thrown out of the window. What I want to say is that you can get true picture and answers from Prius crowd so that info about super reliability, no repairs and so on maybe not 100% true.

 

Going back to FFH I am all for it.

 

* I like the style - it is best looking American made car at this moment, simply gorgeous

* Like performance - true hybrid specs, MPG and all that

* American made - released at perfect time in history, we should all buy (at least) one and help Ford, economy and in turn ourselves

* Cabin - very nice one, much nicer than Prius/Camry

* Gadgets, add-ons - nice selection, would prefer XM over Sirius but that is not a deal breaker

* Colors - white is fine but will be missing tan leather/interior

* Price - have to visit Canadian showroom to see where are we at (it is usually more than in USA)

 

So all conclusions are "go" except last one. Here is my biggest doubt. Toyota cars ARE very good. It's a fact. Where we really stand at for Fusion Hybrid reliability? It is sure too early to say since car is not out long enough, but looking overall to Ford cars reliability? So far doesn't sound encouraging. I mean you pay more for hybrid, save money on gas, buy American but if there is one or more major repairs down the road combined with low resale value that plagues all American made cars that would negate all the money savings, right?

 

I would really appreciate honest opinions on this.

 

Regards,

Zack

 

FFH is assembled in Hermosillo, Mexico. Parts, if I remember right: about 50% made in Mexico, 25% made in USA/Canada and 25% made in Japan (I think hybrid components and powertrain).

[rfruth]

hey Zack you summed it up nicely, the FFH is solid quiet and comfortable - the Prius makes sacrifices to achieve its high MPG, also remember its made in Japan with 100 % Japanese parts, its then transported on ships that burn seed oil (the bottom of the barrel most polluting diesel fuel there is) and guess where your $$$ ends up - anyway I consider the Prius a fine vehicle, really ! It represents that a everyday driver can get 50 MPG - ya might want to consider an extended warranty for either one.

[rlawson4]

hey Zack you summed it up nicely, the FFH is solid quiet and comfortable - the Prius makes sacrifices to achieve its high MPG, also remember its made in Japan with 100 % Japanese parts, its then transported on ships that burn seed oil (the bottom of the barrel most polluting diesel fuel there is) and guess where your $$$ ends up - anyway I consider the Prius a fine vehicle, really ! It represents that a everyday driver can get 50 MPG - ya might want to consider an extended warranty for either one.

 

I never really considered the environmental impact of the shipment of the car from Japan. That is an interesting point. The truth for me is that my purchase of the FFH had little to do with the environment. That being said, I am pleased that my environmental impact is lower than in my Acura. I am not against the environment. However, I may be in a small minority of Hybrid buyer that did it as a national security statement. I am tired of sending money to our "friends" in the middle east so that they can use my own money to fund terrorist activities against my own country. As Thomas freidman (sic?) said: "We are funding both sides on the war on terrorism." I usually do not agree with him on politics, but that one statement really resonated with me. So, I wanted to double my gas mileage as an extremely small impact on our oil dependency. I can actually argue now (with just a small amount of intellectual dishonesty) that I do not use any foreign oil. We still get 50% of our oil domestically. I am using 1/2 the gasoline I used to use. So, I would like to believe that I am getting all my gasoline from the USA. Of course, I know that is silly, but what I do believe is that I am personally sending 50% less money to Saudi Arabia. So, that is 50% less money that they can use to rape women, stone adulterers, kill gay people, fund the bombing of school buses in Israel, and fund schools that preach the destruction of the United States and our allies. That is why I bought the FFH. I love the idea that it helps the environment, but for me, that is the icing.

[Zack]

I guess Jeff_h has most relevant post since he owns or owned both cars. Jeff I am glad you shared that experience with us. I am not sound freak but I do notice the differences. At this time we have 3 cars in family, Honda Odyssey, Mazda 6 V6 and BMW 530i. For instance BMW is expensive car, paid extra for better sound system and what is playing is quite average.

Quick rating for cars:

 

Honda (2005) - 10, perfect, no issues

Mazda - 7, brakes went too soon, clutch went too soon, would not buy it again

BMW - 10 for ride, just perfect car, 8 for repairs, brakes went again, very expensive for maintenance or repairs

 

We went "Japanese" after owning Ford (Escort) 20 years ago and several Chryslers (Dynasty, Caravan) after that. Quite a bit of repairs, always something, not expensive parts but it amounts in volume of repairs.

So now BMW is 6 years old, it still looks perfect and drives perfectly but I think it is time to go. So that is a reason why I am here reading (and appreciating) your opinions. It will be FFH or Prius.

 

I am aware of rlawson4 points about overall oil supply picture and buy American thing. I am all for that, also not crazy about open borders importing millions of Japanese, Korean and whatever cars and not be able to do reciprocal sales.

A good news about oil is that US is importing lions portion of oil from friendly Canada (lucky us) and rest from countries that would rather drown you in cup of water if possible. Politics on a side, your new president is on right track seeking oil independency sooner rather than later. FFH or Prius is move into right direction where "Why not FFH?" is even better choice.

[smr2112]

I feel that the warranties available for a car have alot to do with perceived quality.

If I have to have some key part fixed under warranty and it takes a few hours of

time, but costs me nothing, that is not a big deal to me. If I have to pay out of

pocket for that exotic part and I get nickel and dimed to death, then that relative

level of quality goes way down to me (perception matters).

 

So when you consider the base warranty + extended powertrain warranty + hybrid

warranty of the fusion + relatively cheap extended (ESP) warranty, then my comfort

level of what I am getting, and what it will cost me for 5-6 years, goes way up.

 

I checked with a few places online and I got a Ford ESP warranty quote and spoke

to the guy about a 6yr/60000 PremiumCare (best level) + First Day Rental Reimbursement

for $635 with $50 deductible (I confirmed the price). This makes it a great package

overall and relatively cheap if you ask me. This is very important to me in the big picture.

 

I am not sure what the Toyota warranty is exactly, but all this made me feel more

comfortable about my decision.

[fsb99]

I feel that the warranties available for a car have alot to do with perceived quality.

If I have to have some key part fixed under warranty and it takes a few hours of

time, but costs me nothing, that is not a big deal to me. If I have to pay out of

pocket for that exotic part and I get nickel and dimed to death, then that relative

level of quality goes way down to me (perception matters).

 

So when you consider the base warranty + extended powertrain warranty + hybrid

warranty of the fusion + relatively cheap extended (ESP) warranty, then my comfort

level of what I am getting, and what it will cost me for 5-6 years, goes way up.

 

I checked with a few places online and I got a Ford ESP warranty quote and spoke

to the guy about a 6yr/60000 PremiumCare (best level) + First Day Rental Reimbursement

for $635 with $50 deductible (I confirmed the price). This makes it a great package

overall and relatively cheap if you ask me. This is very important to me in the big picture.

 

I am not sure what the Toyota warranty is exactly, but all this made me feel more

comfortable about my decision.

 

Your 6/60 quote seems pretty cheap... I'm in the market for 7/75. Who is the dealer that you talked to?

[gusr205]

Hi everybody,

 

New member, just registered and coming up with big dilemma. It is old question Prius of FFH?

Here are the facts I learned from both FFH and Prius forums (condensed version):

 

* Prius 2010 has best MPG (50 or something like that)

* FFH is MPG second, before Camry hybrid

* FFH has coolest cabin

* Prius and Camry have highest reliability marks, specially Prius has highest owner satisfaction best reliability of all cars (see Consumers Magazine) sold in US

* FFH costs more than Prius, similar to Camry but fully loaded is somewhat less (depending what you take)

 

Hanging around http://priuschat.com I learned that it is almost freakland over there. Most of the people posting are so obsessed with their MPG and Priuses that they have transformed into chameleons. One eye looking forward and second on on MFD to watch MPG numbers. Statements like: " ...I ruined my perfect MPG today... had to drive uphill so it dropped to 45 from 55...). I mean it is getting ridiculous. Common sense is thrown out of the window. What I want to say is that you can get true picture and answers from Prius crowd so that info about super reliability, no repairs and so on maybe not 100% true.

 

Going back to FFH I am all for it.

 

* I like the style - it is best looking American made car at this moment, simply gorgeous

* Like performance - true hybrid specs, MPG and all that

* American made - released at perfect time in history, we should all buy (at least) one and help Ford, economy and in turn ourselves

* Cabin - very nice one, much nicer than Prius/Camry

* Gadgets, add-ons - nice selection, would prefer XM over Sirius but that is not a deal breaker

* Colors - white is fine but will be missing tan leather/interior

* Price - have to visit Canadian showroom to see where are we at (it is usually more than in USA)

 

So all conclusions are "go" except last one. Here is my biggest doubt. Toyota cars ARE very good. It's a fact. Where we really stand at for Fusion Hybrid reliability? It is sure too early to say since car is not out long enough, but looking overall to Ford cars reliability? So far doesn't sound encouraging. I mean you pay more for hybrid, save money on gas, buy American but if there is one or more major repairs down the road combined with low resale value that plagues all American made cars that would negate all the money savings, right?

 

I would really appreciate honest opinions on this.

 

Regards,

Zack

 

Don't know if this helps. A friend of mine bought a Prius here in Michigan. In the winter he says the car is boarderline dangerous very bad on snow and ice. When it snows he is afraid to drive it.

 

I have had a FFH for 1 month and I love it. I have bought Honda's in the past and this is every bit as nice as the Accord if not nicer. First tankful 40.6 mpg.

[jeff_h]

I am not sure what the Toyota warranty is exactly, but all this made me feel more comfortable about my decision.

 

When I bought the Prius, the dealer said the 6/100k ext warranty was a $2,000 value that he was offering to me for $1,695, I said no thanks. I later found a dealer that would sell me the very same warranty for $775.

 

When I bought the FFH, the dealer said the 3/100k ext warranty (I drive 3,000 miles per month) was a $1,987 value that he was offering to me for $1,581, I said no thanks. I later found a dealer that would sell me the 4/100k warranty for $845, which is at www.myfordwarranty.com and I got the written confirmation in the mail about a week after ordering.

 

So as warranties go, the cars are quite similar (I think they both have base 3/36k) and the price of the extended warranties are also quite similar where some shopping around is needed since this is one place where the hometown dealers may tend to pad the purchase deal (for them).

[rfruth]

According to cars.com both cars include 3/36 but the FFH has Roadside Assistance (not sure if thats worth much, any one know) ?

 

cars.com compare

[Zack]

Don't know if this helps. A friend of mine bought a Prius here in Michigan. In the winter he says the car is boarderline dangerous very bad on snow and ice. When it snows he is afraid to drive it.

 

I have had a FFH for 1 month and I love it. I have bought Honda's in the past and this is every bit as nice as the Accord if not nicer. First tankful 40.6 mpg.

 

It sure does help, I am in Toronto, Canada! We have snow 5 months in year. How car handles snow is very important.

[Waldo]

So all conclusions are "go" except last one. Here is my biggest doubt. Toyota cars ARE very good. It's a fact.

 

No, Toyota cars WERE very good. Times change and Toyota has been slacking off, riding their image while cutting engineering and costs. Ford has been hard at work trying to catch up, and by most measures has done so.

 

But the bottom line is the Fusion is a big car and the Prius is a small one. Buy the one that best fits your intended use.

[hoyafan]

No, Toyota cars WERE very good. Times change and Toyota has been slacking off, riding their image while cutting engineering and costs. Ford has been hard at work trying to catch up, and by most measures has done so.

 

 

It seems you are right - see attached article: Ford tops in quality survey

 

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090721/AU...+quality+survey

[jeff_h]

It seems you are right - see attached article: Ford tops in quality survey

 

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090721/AU...+quality+survey

 

Well even though my wife and I now both own Fords, I gotta be objective here. I reviewed that referenced article and while yes Ford looks good, the study was commissioned by Ford and as such the company that pays for the study tends to get things stated in a way that's positive toward them. I'm not saying that Ford is not tops because I believe they are making great products now (despite the "American cars" paradigm), but the guys who pay for the studies usually come out looking pretty good, or else the study might never see public release, right?

 

But I also remember the stories a few years ago that Toyota was having a record number of recalls, so I agree with the OP who said that they seem to be having some growing pains. If you hit that link for the quality survey there is another link about Toyota no longer being profitable in North America and considering the closure of the large Fremont CA plant and delaying the planned opening of a plant in Mississippi where the Prius might someday be built.

 

And to the person who considered a Prius but who also gets a lot of snow, there were several northerners on the Prius forum who said the car was just fine in the snow but it sure sucked during the times that I drove it in the snow. The "all season" tires that were on there were "not so much all" season, I still have the mounted set of snow tires in the shed that I paid $530 for just so I could have better tires and traction in the snow, ended up only putting about 5,000 miles max on them.

[akirby]

Well even though my wife and I now both own Fords, I gotta be objective here. I reviewed that referenced article and while yes Ford looks good, the study was commissioned by Ford and as such the company that pays for the study tends to get things stated in a way that's positive toward them.

 

Wrong. RDA is a company that does surveys for a lot of different mfrs. The mfrs use this data to gauge their progress internally and target areas for improvement. If RDA only told mfrs what they wanted to hear then they wouldn't be in business very long. And you would have 2 different mfrs claiming to be #1 based on THEIR RDA surveys and that's not the case. Besides, RDAs results have practically mirrored the JD Power results.

 

All mfrs pay for independent surveys - this is not marketing crap.

[jeff_h]

And you would have 2 different mfrs claiming to be #1 based on THEIR RDA surveys and that's not the case.

 

And isn't this the case on many commercials when one claims to be the most popular, longest lasting, most durable, etc etc etc and then there's a small citation at the bottom of the screen with the source? I believe every company will spin results for their own marketing, give them a set of statistics and they can spin it as they wish. You noted that the surveys are also used for internal measurement and I'm sure that's true, but I think the ones that aren't so newsworthy don't make it onto a commercial because "We're #3!" doesn't sound as good in advertisements. I don't work in that industry, but whenever I see these claims I have to take them with a grain of salt, but that's just me, YMMV.

[rfruth]

The Detroit News has always been pro American (not surprisingly) - thanks for the link !

[BearCat]

No, Toyota cars WERE very good. Times change and Toyota has been slacking off, riding their image while cutting engineering and costs. Ford has been hard at work trying to catch up, and by most measures has done so.

 

But the bottom line is the Fusion is a big car and the Prius is a small one. Buy the one that best fits your intended use.

 

 

I was a huge Ford guy. But I have not owned a Ford/American in 10 years due to crappy quality. My wife a 2007 Toyota Rav. For the "premium" price I paid for the Toyota I am not overly satisfied. The interior squeeks constantly and the dealers "cant" fix it. I ended up having to address it myself. To me this is a waste of money. Why pay the "premium" for quality when I still cant get it fixed and have to do it myself. It should squeek in the first place and dealership experience is probably the same across manufactures in the non-premium market.

 

I also agree with the comments above saying Toyota is "resting" and Ford it "trying". While not perfect, I have watched the Ford brand over the last two years. My brother has an 08 Edge. I am happy with what I see and am looking to replace my Maxima in the next two years. I was going to do it this year but the economy took a poo on my plans.

 

So that gives me the chance to see what upgrades are coming for the FFH (Hoping HID and more choices of colors and rims) and what might happen with EV Focus. Ford has my attention again. They are not out of the fire, but they are sure trying (at least it seems that way)

 

Cliff Notes: I dont think Toyota "Quality" is far superior to Fords at this time. Ford is swinging up to try to regain reputation. Toyota is "riding". However its hard to removed ones perception of "quality" once it is lost.

[akirby]

And isn't this the case on many commercials when one claims to be the most popular, longest lasting, most durable, etc etc etc and then there's a small citation at the bottom of the screen with the source? I believe every company will spin results for their own marketing, give them a set of statistics and they can spin it as they wish. You noted that the surveys are also used for internal measurement and I'm sure that's true, but I think the ones that aren't so newsworthy don't make it onto a commercial because "We're #3!" doesn't sound as good in advertisements. I don't work in that industry, but whenever I see these claims I have to take them with a grain of salt, but that's just me, YMMV.

 

There is a big difference between cherry picking survey results or spinning them in your favor - which all mfrs do to some degree - and the implication that survey results from RDA are bogus simply because Ford is paying them to do the survey.

 

You can't get an unbiased, accurate survey from anyone unless you pay for it. Ford pays for JD Power surveys too - does that make them biased?

[Waldo]

And isn't this the case on many commercials when one claims to be the most popular, longest lasting, most durable, etc etc etc and then there's a small citation at the bottom of the screen with the source? I believe every company will spin results for their own marketing, give them a set of statistics and they can spin it as they wish.

 

I don't see any marketing in this article, I see a newspaper obtaining a set of internal Ford documents. As akirby said, why would anyone pay for a survey that would mislead them? Ford's been paying for this survey for over 20 years, but they were never #1 before.

[black70bird]

We just purchased a FFH last week after much research and many test drives. Car and Driver was responsible for me even considering the FFH. We own a 03 Prius, a 05 4Runner and a 1986 Saab 900S. I drove the Camry Hybrid once and removed it from our list. The Prius was a candidate, but is not a car I would do a road trip in. We did it once in our Prius and were sore and stiff for days. The Prius is a commuter and if I were getting rid of my Prius, I would buy the new Prius. The FFH on the other hand handles well, is comfortable and I don't feel like I am a sardine. There are small finish issues that I will make Ford aware of, like the power receptacle in the console that has a cheap rubber plug with a lanyard on it. Put a flip top cover on it like the 4Runner has. A small thing really. The overall quality of the car is outstanding, and that is why I even noticed that cheesy little cover. :shift:

 

Editorial comment:

Who I do hold responsible for the demise of the America Auto Maker is the UAW. The UAW did more to kill the competitive edge and quality of American autos than any single entity. They were my main reason for not buying an American car. This one is made in Mexico and that should be a message to the UAW! :censored: