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New 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid

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#41 OFFLINE   Eddie Sessum

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:50 PM

Their comments about driving to maximize fuel economy and easily clearing the EPA rating are the same with the FFH. It all depends on how and where you drive.

 

 

Too bad we cant get info on where they tested at if it was flat, hilly or what.. 


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#42 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:27 AM

They gamed the EPA test cycles just like Ford!!! I can't wait to see what the real world results are! My guess is that Honda will try to not sell these just like they're doing with the plug in so that they won't have many cars on the road and thus less complaints about bad MPGs.

What is your source for saying they gamed the EPA just like Ford?
Will be interesting to see what they do real world.

Edited by fusionTX, 08 September 2013 - 07:28 AM.

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#43 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:36 AM

EPA ratings annouced for the Accord Hybrid.
Check out this article from USA TODAY:
Accord hybrid rated 50 mpg in city
http://usat.ly/17D1Drm

Interesting corncobs. The field is getting crowded.
I still like the looks of the Fusion, but people associate Honda and Toyota with reliability.
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#44 OFFLINE   Sleddog

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:44 AM

Interesting corncobs. The field is getting crowded.
I still like the looks of the Fusion, but people associate Honda and Toyota with reliability.

I'm not sure about that.  With the lawsuits against Honda for there MPG ratings and the loss of mileage after they released a software update, and all the Toyota recalls lately, I don't see them as reliable. I see them as just another car company.


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#45 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:36 AM

What is your source for saying they gamed the EPA just like Ford?
Will be interesting to see what they do real world.

ScreenShot2013-09-08at83752AM_zps8367718

 

No one is immune to the laws of physics. Note that while the FFH has a higher EPA rating than the TCH the Fuelly data shows them to have about the same overall average MPG, about 40.5 MPG (the FFH median is actually 41 and the TCH median is 40 but they're close enough that I'm calling them equal for this comparison). However, the FFH has more upside if you have a hybrid friendly commute or as you gain experience driving a hybrid as evidenced by the high averages seen by jeff_h and others who average more than 47 MPG for the life of their car.

 

You'll notice that between the 3 cars above they're all very close in ICE HP and torque, Electric Motor power & torque, curb weight and drag coefficient. While the new HAH has a higher Cd it has a lower curb weight, those two factors work to offset each other to make it roughly equal to the FFH. The TCH has the best Cdand the lightest curb weight. However, because its ICE is larger and cannot shut off at high speeds like in the FFH its EPA fuel economy is lower while Fuelly results indicate it is about the same as the FFH. The articles published about the HAH indicate that Honda designed the non-plug-in hybrid to run as much as possible on electric power at low speeds, much like the FFH. With a larger traction motor the Honda will be able to spend even more time in EV Mode in city driving and thus it gets a higher EPA City MPG than the FFH or TCH. On the freeway however, current reviews indicate that the top speed for EV Mode in the HAH is 50 MPH. This means that the ICE is not shutting off at all while on the freeway. This is likely a key factor in the lower EPA Hwy MPG compared to the FFH. Notice how similar the ICE specs are between the HAH and FFH. Same displacement, only a slight difference in torque.

 

The HAH compression ratio is 13.0 while the FFH is 12.3. The HAH bore x stroke is 3.19 x 3.81 and the FFH is 3.45 x 3.27 inches. Overall the ICE performance should be very similar. It all comes down to programming. Like Ford, I believe this evidence indicates that Honda tailored their programming to the EPA test cycles. By achieving that "magic" 50 MPG number Honda can advertise that their car gets better gas mileage than the FFH. And they can broadcast 50 MPG all over the place like Ford did with 47 MPG. While the FFH gets 47 MPG on the EPA tests, many owners find that hard to do in the real world. While the HAH gets 50/45/47 on the EPA tests I likewise surmise that it will be a challenge for most owners to get that in the real world. The only thing missing from the table above is the HAH battery size. Honda has not yet published details about the battery size in the non-plug-in version. Or at least, I couldn't find that data anywhere online.

 

Note: I took screenshots of the Fuelly data but the Forum won't allow those images. I'm working on another way to add them. It also doesn't display my Excel table correctly....grrrrr :angry22: :banghead:

Update: Got it! I took another screen shot and then used Photobucket


Edited by hybridbear, 08 September 2013 - 08:40 AM.

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#46 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:11 AM

I am willing to wait for real world data before declaring that Honda gamed the system, the same way Ford did. I have a hard time believing that after all the negative publicity Ford has received, that Honda would follow in its footsteps. But we will find out soon enough.
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#47 OFFLINE   Eddie Sessum

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:59 AM

I still say from my experience our cars going in and out of ev mode hurts our mpg between 63 and 66mph.. The charging uses more fuel than just running the ICE. I've tested multiple times and once the soc is up I get 2-3mpg more at 70mph since the update.

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#48 OFFLINE   dalesky

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:50 PM

What is your source for saying they gamed the EPA just like Ford?
Will be interesting to see what they do real world.

Every manufacturer sets their cars up to maximize the MPG using the EPA testing cycle. I can't think of any that actually deliver what their EPA tests show. It's simply a proven technique. It's like virtually all advertising- mostly made up to sell a product.


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#49 OFFLINE   Ted Swing

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 12:58 PM

If Ford (and others) can follow the rules and give misleading numbers, that's the EPA's fault for making a test cycle that's easily gamed, not Ford's fault for doing the best they can within the rules. The EPA needs to come up with a test cycle that acknowledges that people drive over 50 MPH for extended periods of time, accelerate faster than 3 MPH/s, etc.

 

That said, has the bad publicity really hurt Ford? They lowered the EPA estimate on the C-Max hybrid in August and had record sales that month. They are selling Fusion Hybrids as fast as they can make them. I just ordered my first FFH and was well aware of all of the controversy about the fuel efficiency. It just didn't change my mind. By the same token, I can't really blame Honda for doing the same thing (if, in fact, they did).


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#50 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:35 AM

Interesting article explaining how the new HAH works. I'm really keen to drive one once they arrive at dealers and compare to the FFH.

 

http://www.autonews....s#axzz2gZqjR9hP


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#51 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:56 PM

From Green Car Reports:

How the new HAH powertrain works

 

And their first drive report

Spoiler alert: they got 47 MPG combined while not driving gently. If that's legit then I think this car might be a game-changer!


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#52 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:36 PM

This is another system to avoid the Toyota/Ford eCVT patents. If it works, fine. It's got a clutch, FFH's do not. It's going through a needless electric loss cycle on acceleration when the ICE is not connected with the clutch. That they achieve the economy they do in light of the inefficiencies is commendable. It's really closer to a Volt. The outcomes of either system rely heavily on execution and manufacturing but it is not an elegant design like our eCVTs. Competition is good.


Edited by lolder, 09 October 2013 - 01:37 PM.

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#53 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:40 PM

I still like my FFH exterior and interior styling much much better not even 5 or even 10 MPG more would turn me over.

If they found a way to get the MPG # save for real world driving hopefully more people will join the hybrid driver family.
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#54 OFFLINE   Eddie Sessum

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:49 PM

If it was a solid number way up there once it came out. If I wouldnt have already bought my mkz I would have considered it. But it would have to be atleast 10mpg more to deal with the looks lol. 

 

We can  just hope that ford follows honda on the idea for the next gen. 


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#55 OFFLINE   gadgetguy

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:56 PM

I still like my FFH exterior and interior styling much much better not even 5 or even 10 MPG more would turn me over.

If they found a way to get the MPG # save for real world driving hopefully more people will join the hybrid driver family.


Totally agree!

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:03 AM

just remember a quote from the article "From that (provided our trip computer was accurate), we're quite convinced"  they were using the on board trip computer, not actual mileage.  So I am guessing that they did not have the car long enough to do a real, from the pump, gas mileage.


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#57 OFFLINE   Aquineas

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:17 AM

Here's one from thetruthaboutcars.com. Very impressive numbers. I don't have buyer's envy because my wife absolutely loves the Fusion. But it does give one pause..  Edit: In the video review, he states that they're averaging about 10mpg more than the FFH.


Edited by Aquineas, 10 October 2013 - 09:38 AM.

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#58 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:31 AM

This is another system to avoid the Toyota/Ford eCVT patents. If it works, fine. It's got a clutch, FFH's do not. It's going through a needless electric loss cycle on acceleration when the ICE is not connected with the clutch. That they achieve the economy they do in light of the inefficiencies is commendable. It's really closer to a Volt. The outcomes of either system rely heavily on execution and manufacturing but it is not an elegant design like our eCVTs. Competition is good.

So I want to understand this better...

Here is a link to the topic about the Toyota Prius eCVT:http://fordfusionhyb...-is-the-answer/

The Prius can operate in four distinct modes:

  1. The HVB is disconnected (not charging or discharging) thus using the ICE only to power the car, MG1 & MG2 are neither generating nor using electricity
  2. The ICE spins a generator to make electricity to power the car, the ICE is not actually spinning the wheels
  3. The ICE powers the wheels and spins a generator to make electricity to power the car and/or charge the HVB
  4. The ICE is off and the car drives electrically

It appears that the new HAH does Prius1 on the highway and Prius2 & Prius4 around town as needed.

 

The FFH operates in these modes it appears:

  1. The ICE powers the wheels and spins a generator to make electricity to charge the battery
  2. The ICE powers the wheels and the HVB sends electricity to an electric motor to power the wheels
  3. The ICE is off and the car drives electrically

Does the FFH ever use the ICE as a generator to send electricity to an electric motor to power the wheels while being disconnected from the wheels?

 

I'm trying to understand all of this.

 

For more details see the article above from GCR and this article:

http://www.technolog...-to-hit-50-mpg/


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#59 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:09 PM

The Prius and FFH operate alike. The cars can be stationary and the ICE running to charge the HVB or some other check like evaporative emissions. When the ICE runs, it is always connected to the planetary gear system that is connected to the wheels and MG1 determines how much power the ICE transmits through the CVT to the wheels. When the car is stopped, it's zero and  when the car is in motion varying amounts of the ICE output may go to MG1 (in the generator mode) and the wheels. If you floor it, a large amount is delivered through the CVT to the wheels and the rest goes to MG1 which goes to MG2 along with energy from the HVB. Specifying modes is too complicated AND too simple. It's a series/parallel eCVT full hybrid. The eCVT makes it easy to juggle the power split by electronically varying the torgue of MG1 many times a second, both positive and negative in either direction of rotation. The Volt has clutches also like the HAH. The mode in the HAH where the ICE is disconnected from the gears and only runs the generator which powers the traction motor is an inefficient one but since the gears are fixed at one speed, they can't connect the ICE at low speed for significant power. It's a ( well done ) kluge designed to avoid the patents, in my opinion. Boo-Hiss to electronic clutches that have to be perfectly synchronized during engagement to avoid lurches. That was the problem with the first HSH's that were jerky. They've got that smoothed out but I worry about the long term reliability. I worry about the long term durability of electro-mechanical devices like that. There is nothing to wear or synchronize in the Toyota/Ford eCVT system. Everything is done by software and solid-state device. The only wear is in gears and bearings which usually is very low. The only other wear is long term ICE wear and HVB deterioration. The government tests showed the !st gen FFH HVB had a 8% degradation after 160,000 miles. By comparison the 1st gem ( US ) Prius had a 60% degradation. Even that amount of battery loss did not affect the Prius normal operation or mpg. It's only necessary that a non-plug-in eCVT HVB not fail. The HVB is never disconnected in these cars while in operation. In "N", most of the time the HVB will not apply power to either MG1 or MG2. It will power MG1 to motorize the ICE when the vehicle is above the max EV speed even in "N". The HVB will operate the AC in "N".


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#60 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:22 PM

Understanding how a planetary gear set works is the key to understanding eCVTs. There are many places to read about them on the web and many Prius demonstations. The Fords are the same. There is a center "Sun" gear connected only to MG1; there is the "Planetary" carriage gear connected only to the ICE and the "Ring" outside gear connected to the wheels. Power can go into or out of any of the three parts or between the parts by controlling the torque on the "Sun" gear. When you do this with a computer, you have the modern eCVT hybrid.


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