I "REALLY" hate cold weather, What to expect in MPG.

[acdii]

Going to be -11 tonight. Not looking forward to tomorrows drive.

[GrySql]

I'm in Indiana.... we haven't had 0 degree weather..... but now having a hard time getting 30MPG on this current tank and might not make the 300 mile club on this one........ or much better.... Check my Fuelly for Geremy13 and see what you think.

 

Only thing I can figure is after the oil change in late October everything went to crap....... of course the weather went under 50 as well,, but this kind of mileage on a brand new car is starting to get to me... real bad.

 

If you check my Fuelly you can see that I know how to get in the 40+, but now even under the most conservative driving I can't get much over 30......

 

Bummed!....

 

Need someone to help me,,, give me some direction on what to do next. Haven't bought a new car in 10 years and now these payments are not justifying the decision that I made when my other car can do 30MPG...

 

Just Bummed!,,,,

 

Like the Topic said.... blowing off some steam.

Did your car require the PCM update and has it been done?

Any other work done on the car other than the oil change?

 

Have you tried the 100% SOC Hard Reset?

[acdii]

12 below this morning. It was so cold I saw witches lined up in front of the Thinsulate bra store.

 

My rear side windows never defrosted after dropping off the mouth breathers. Man can they ice up the windows. Even after a 10 minute warm up, the car still drove off in S1. That is how cold it is. I got out last night before it got too cold and stuffed pipe insulation into the lower grill. Too soon to tell if it made any difference yet, but my trip in got me 39.1, so not complaining. I am complaining that my wife had the car last and DIDN"T fill the tank! Grrrr. Now I have to pay more to fill the tank near work than at home.

 

What I have observed so far, fewer EV miles when its this cold, the batteries run down much faster, even after an hour of driving. They also charge slower. The car would do better if EV could be switched off at anything above 45 MPH when its this cold and let the ICE drive the car instead of charging and propelling. When I can keep SOC above 80%, I can see 40 MPG+ on the instant. When it gets below 70% then I see it drop to a hair above 20 until it gets it back to 80+. It would also keep the cabin warmer, the cooling system is too efficient in this car, with the heater on auto it will suck the heat right out of the ICE even while its running at 50 MPH, and this is with grill covers on! I find keeping the HVAC at Defroster/floor mixed with half or lower fan speed gives a good balance and doesn't pull too much heat from the ICE so it cycles less when going at EV speeds of 25 MPH.

[hybridbear]

12 below this morning. It was so cold I saw witches lined up in front of the Thinsulate bra store.

 

My rear side windows never defrosted after dropping off the mouth breathers. Man can they ice up the windows. Even after a 10 minute warm up, the car still drove off in S1. That is how cold it is. I got out last night before it got too cold and stuffed pipe insulation into the lower grill. Too soon to tell if it made any difference yet, but my trip in got me 39.1, so not complaining. I am complaining that my wife had the car last and DIDN"T fill the tank! Grrrr. Now I have to pay more to fill the tank near work than at home.

 

What I have observed so far, fewer EV miles when its this cold, the batteries run down much faster, even after an hour of driving. They also charge slower. The car would do better if EV could be switched off at anything above 45 MPH when its this cold and let the ICE drive the car instead of charging and propelling. When I can keep SOC above 80%, I can see 40 MPG+ on the instant. When it gets below 70% then I see it drop to a hair above 20 until it gets it back to 80+. It would also keep the cabin warmer, the cooling system is too efficient in this car, with the heater on auto it will suck the heat right out of the ICE even while its running at 50 MPH, and this is with grill covers on! I find keeping the HVAC at Defroster/floor mixed with half or lower fan speed gives a good balance and doesn't pull too much heat from the ICE so it cycles less when going at EV speeds of 25 MPH.

39 MPG isn't bad in this weather. I drove about 45 miles yesterday in 5 trips (13, 8.5, .7, 8.5, 13 miles) and got about 38 MPG for the day. Coming from the warm underground garage at our apt outside to -5 temps the windows ice up. The left rear was the only one that never cleared. On the freeway I was able to get the coolant temp up to about 80C, but it didn't stay there long. Driving in the city it is hard to keep it above the bottom line on the temp gauge. Below that bottom line and the ICE will often turn on to provide cabin heat. The best MPG trip of the day was the first 8.5 mile trip which got 42 MPG. That trip started with ICE coolant about 55C since the car hadn't sat too long after shutting it off from the first trip. I was able to use the block heater for a couple hours while visiting my parents. That kept the coolant temp about 30C for the final trip home in the evening. Air temps were pretty steady all day at -5F with windchill of -30F and 20-30 MPH wind from the northwest.

 

Using the block heater and foam grille blocking helps, but I agree with acdii... the cooling system is too efficient...it cools the ICE very quickly. The Prius performs way better in the cold than the FFH. Ford should study the Prius cooling system design to figure out how to keep their ICE warmer in winter.

 

I think one issue with the Ford is that anytime the ICE runs the coolant circulates through more than just the ICE. The animation here indicates that on a cold start the coolant should just flow through the ICE and not through the radiator. However, every time the ICE turns on after a stretch of EV driving, the coolant temp drops substantially...this makes me think that the car isn't just circulating the coolant that was inside the ICE, but that it's also circulating coolant from other areas. Even with foam grille blocking the coolant temp will drop 10+ degrees C or 18+ degrees F when the ICE kicks on. With foam grille blocking this seems excessive for how much heat would be lost from engine compartment airflow with grille blocking. Especially considering that the Prius only drops 2-5F after similar stretches of EV only driving when its ICE kicks on.

 

Based on the description of thermostats here, the thermostat on my FFH should never open in the winter because the coolant never gets hot enough to send it through the radiator. How can I confirm that the thermostat isn't opening?

 

It seems like some part of the FFH cooling system is too powerful because the ICE just doesn't get hot enough to cause the thermostat to open, even in the summer. The Prius reaches 193-195F after 2-3 minutes on the freeway even with outside temps of -10F. The Prius will maintain 170-190F coolant temp driving in the city with the heat running with outside temps of <10F. The FFH sits at home for the most part on the coldest days because it can barely reach 175F after 10+ minutes on the freeway and it struggles to keep the coolant above 150F with heat off when driving in the city. With the heat on it struggles to keep the coolant above 125F. I wonder if the radiator fan ever turned on in the black FFH in 19,000 miles. My guess is that it never needed to.

[ptjones]

Here is what I see going on, first thermostat starts to open at 202degrees to 212degrees fully opened(operating temperature range according to FORD) Second when EV comes on you may notice on ScanGauge the temp goes up approx. 5degrees from warm coolant rising to the top of ICE. Thirdly the air flow around ICE especially oil pan cools ICE. (I noticed a 5-10degree increase in WT with oil pan heater glued to bottom of oil pan, so there is a significant amount of cooling going there.). Fourth when ICE starts up the cooler coolant circulates to top of ICE to sensor and you see a drop in temp.

So if you aren't getting to at least 202degrees, you still have a ways to go to get best MPG's. IMO it would be better to be at 220-230degrees WT than 180-190degrees. You might look at installing Wolverine Model 9 oil pan heater to give you a boost in the morning and raise overall temps by 5-10degrees. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

Here is what I see going on, first thermostat starts to open at 202degrees to 212degrees fully opened(operating temperature range according to FORD) Second when EV comes on you may notice on ScanGauge the temp goes up approx. 5degrees from warm coolant rising to the top of ICE. Thirdly the air flow around ICE especially oil pan cools ICE. (I noticed a 5-10degree increase in WT with oil pan heater glued to bottom of oil pan, so there is a significant amount of cooling going there.). Fourth when ICE starts up the cooler coolant circulates to top of ICE to sensor and you see a drop in temp.

So if you aren't getting to at least 202degrees, you still have a ways to go to get best MPG's. IMO it would be better to be at 220-230degrees WT than 180-190degrees. You might look at installing Wolverine Model 9 oil pan heater to give you a boost in the morning and raise overall temps by 5-10degrees. :)

 

Paul

How does an oil pan heater work?

[ptjones]

How does an oil pan heater work?

It has self adhesive that sticks to bottom of oil pan,, 3": in diameter and it is 120vac. I used a NAPA KAT'S heater #24150 but it was to big and wouldn't fold around side of oil pan. It diffidently raised WT about 10degrees and I'd give it to you if you are interested. Just message me. They are easy to install just decide a convenient location for plug to hookup AC cord and then lower front of lower cover under car and reach in stick heater to bottom of oil pan. Close it up and you're done. I think they run around $45 new. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

It has self adhesive that sticks to bottom of oil pan,, 3": in diameter and it is 120vac. I used a NAPA KAT'S heater #24150 but it was to big and wouldn't fold around side of oil pan. It diffidently raised WT about 10degrees and I'd give it to you if you are interested. Just message me. They are easy to install just decide a convenient location for plug to hookup AC cord and then lower front of lower cover under car and reach in stick heater to bottom of oil pan. Close it up and you're done. I think they run around $45 new. :)

 

Paul

How do you connect it to electricity? Is it electrified while you drive? Or just while at home like a block heater? Thanks!

[ptjones]

Just at home or any where you can use extension cord. It will raise your temps by 10degrees from the insulation factor too. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

Just at home or any where you can use extension cord. It will raise your temps by 10degrees from the insulation factor too. :)

 

Paul

Since our car has a block heater already from the factory I don't see a need to plug this in too since the Ford block heater already heats the oil IIRC. The insulation while driving would be nice though...I will ponder how to better insulate while driving. I looked at the hood, but it seems to be sealed pretty well. At the suggestion of some Prius owners I put some foam along stretches of the side of the hood on the underside of it. Supposedly these pieces will seal up some of the other air gaps around the hood. Aside from what I've done so far I'm not sure what else I can do...

[ptjones]

I didn't know you had ICE block heater. Insulating the ICE is a more direct approach don't you think? You could tape some foam around oil pan. Then it doesn't matter what kind of air leaks you have. :)

 

Paul

[corncobs]

...Aside from what I've done so far I'm not sure what else I can do...

.. enjoy your new car and don't freeze while driving just for a few extra MPG. :-)

[ptjones]

.. enjoy your new car and don't freeze while driving just for a few extra MPG. :-)

Heated seats work good and don't hurt MPG's much. :)

 

Paul

[Geremy13]

Appreciate the response so much,

 

Have not done the PCM update yet...... Did NOT expect this much of a drop without it..... Filled up today and this tank was 27.7MPG.........

 

Have not done the reset of the SOC....... I suppose it's time to get the car to the dealership and get them to fix it.... do whatever it takes to get me back up to 40+......

 

Thank you so much for your interest and help. Everyone here has always been helpful and it is sincerely appreciated.

[acdii]

If you HAVEN'T done the PCM update, you are wasting fuel. Part of the update involves the cooling system and how the ICE functions with it. Between this car and the previous one I can see a big difference in ICE operations in cold weather. The PCM update may have helped the other car.

 

I wonder if the Fusion actually has a conventional thermostat, or if it uses valving instead. It is amazing how one step up or down on the blower speed can make a difference in MPG too. I never use Auto mode during the winter, or the ice would rarely turn off.

 

Quite happy though with the MPG, better than the 2010 did in this weather, and very consistent, better than that other car did by a long shot too.

Edited December 31, 2013 by acdii

[hermans]

+1 on the PCM update. My gas mileage with the FFH is better than it was this time last year, before the update.

[hybridbear]

I agree about the PCM update. It allows the ICE to turn off more in cold weather which will help MPGs.

[hybridbear]

39 MPG isn't bad in this weather. I drove about 45 miles yesterday in 5 trips (13, 8.5, .7, 8.5, 13 miles) and got about 38 MPG for the day. Coming from the warm underground garage at our apt outside to -5 temps the windows ice up. The left rear was the only one that never cleared. On the freeway I was able to get the coolant temp up to about 80C, but it didn't stay there long. Driving in the city it is hard to keep it above the bottom line on the temp gauge. Below that bottom line and the ICE will often turn on to provide cabin heat. The best MPG trip of the day was the first 8.5 mile trip which got 42 MPG. That trip started with ICE coolant about 55C since the car hadn't sat too long after shutting it off from the first trip. I was able to use the block heater for a couple hours while visiting my parents. That kept the coolant temp about 30C for the final trip home in the evening. Air temps were pretty steady all day at -5F with windchill of -30F and 20-30 MPH wind from the northwest.

 

Using the block heater and foam grille blocking helps, but I agree with acdii... the cooling system is too efficient...it cools the ICE very quickly. The Prius performs way better in the cold than the FFH. Ford should study the Prius cooling system design to figure out how to keep their ICE warmer in winter.

 

I think one issue with the Ford is that anytime the ICE runs the coolant circulates through more than just the ICE. The animation here indicates that on a cold start the coolant should just flow through the ICE and not through the radiator. However, every time the ICE turns on after a stretch of EV driving, the coolant temp drops substantially...this makes me think that the car isn't just circulating the coolant that was inside the ICE, but that it's also circulating coolant from other areas. Even with foam grille blocking the coolant temp will drop 10+ degrees C or 18+ degrees F when the ICE kicks on. With foam grille blocking this seems excessive for how much heat would be lost from engine compartment airflow with grille blocking. Especially considering that the Prius only drops 2-5F after similar stretches of EV only driving when its ICE kicks on.

 

Based on the description of thermostats here, the thermostat on my FFH should never open in the winter because the coolant never gets hot enough to send it through the radiator. How can I confirm that the thermostat isn't opening?

 

It seems like some part of the FFH cooling system is too powerful because the ICE just doesn't get hot enough to cause the thermostat to open, even in the summer. The Prius reaches 193-195F after 2-3 minutes on the freeway even with outside temps of -10F. The Prius will maintain 170-190F coolant temp driving in the city with the heat running with outside temps of <10F. The FFH sits at home for the most part on the coldest days because it can barely reach 175F after 10+ minutes on the freeway and it struggles to keep the coolant above 150F with heat off when driving in the city. With the heat on it struggles to keep the coolant above 125F. I wonder if the radiator fan ever turned on in the black FFH in 19,000 miles. My guess is that it never needed to.

Ok, I've gathered more data... On Monday, 12/30, my wife and I went out for supper after work. When she got home, but before we left for supper, I decided to check the coolant temp of the Prius. The Prius coolant temp at that point was about 170F according to the ScanGauge. It had peaked about 190-193F while she was on the freeway but then dropped from city driving. Upon opening the hood I could feel that the ICE was too hot to touch. The hybrid computer box was cool to the touch and the hybrid coolant was cool to the touch. The ICE coolant reservoir was also cool to the touch, indicating that the thermostat stayed mostly closed. Information from Prius Chat indicates that the Prius thermostat doesn't fully open until 203F. It begins to partially open starting at 180F. Ideal Prius ICE temp is 190-208F. After supper, I checked again. When we got home from supper the coolant temp was also around 165-170F and again the ICE was too hot to put my hand near, but everything else was cool to the touch.

 

Today I drove 3 trips in the FFH, 6.5, 9.5 and 6 miles. The outside temp was -5F. The coolant never even reached 80C (176F) on the first two trips and peaked at 83C (181F) on the 6 mile trip home. When I got home I popped the hood to check temps. The front of the ICE near the hybrid logo was ice cold. The hybrid computer box was cool to the touch, as was the hybrid coolant. However, the ICE coolant reservoir and its lines were quite warm, even hot to touch. This is not overflow heat from the ICE as none of the parts near the coolant reservoir were warm, they were all cold. I could even reach my hand down that side and touch the side of the ICE itself without it being too hot to touch. Based on the animations from How Stuff Works the thermostat must be opening then on the FFH for the coolant in the reservoir to be warm, right? I don't understand why coolant would flow through the radiator with outside temps so cold and with the ICE not even reaching 85C.

 

ptjones has said that Ford told him the idea temp for the ICE is 205F-212F (96C-100C). Yet, neither Fusion we've had ever comes close to 96C coolant temp, not even in summer! What's going on?

 

I'd encourage others to check their coolant reservoir temp after trips as well. Especially if you're able to do it in conjunction with watching coolant temps with either a ScanGauge or ET Mode. It would be interesting to know if others find that their ICE reaches similar temps but the coolant reservoir is still cold...

Edited January 1, 2014 by hybridbear
corrected Prius thermostat data

[ptjones]

Ok, I've gathered more data... On Monday, 12/30, my wife and I went out for supper after work. When she got home, but before we left for supper, I decided to check the coolant temp of the Prius. The Prius coolant temp at that point was about 170F according to the ScanGauge. It had peaked about 190-193F while she was on the freeway but then dropped from city driving. Upon opening the hood I could feel that the ICE was too hot to touch. The hybrid computer box was cool to the touch and the hybrid coolant was cool to the touch. The ICE coolant reservoir was also cool to the touch, indicating that the thermostat stayed mostly closed. Information from Prius Chat indicates that the Prius thermostat doesn't fully open until about 195+F. After supper, I checked again. When we got home from supper the coolant temp was also around 165-170F and again the ICE was too hot to put my hand near, but everything else was cool to the touch.

 

Today I drove 3 trips in the FFH, 6.5, 9.5 and 6 miles. The outside temp was -5F. The coolant never even reached 80C on the first two trips and peaked at 83C on the 6 mile trip home. When I got home I popped the hood to check temps. The front of the ICE near the hybrid logo was ice cold. The hybrid computer box was cool to the touch, as was the hybrid coolant. However, the ICE coolant reservoir and its lines were quite warm, even hot to touch. This is not overflow heat from the ICE as none of the parts near the coolant reservoir were warm, they were all cold. I could even reach my hand down that side and touch the side of the ICE itself without it being too hot to touch. Based on the animations from How Stuff Works the thermostat must be opening then on the FFH for the coolant in the reservoir to be warm, right? I don't understand why coolant would flow through the radiator with outside temps so cold and with the ICE not even reaching 85C.

 

ptjones has said that Ford told him the idea temp for the ICE is 205F-212F (96C-100C). Yet, neither Fusion we've had ever comes close to 96C coolant temp, not even in summer! What's going on?

 

I'd encourage others to check their coolant reservoir temp after trips as well. Especially if you're able to do it in conjunction with watching coolant temps with either a ScanGauge or ET Mode. It would be interesting to know if others find that their ICE reaches similar temps but the coolant reservoir is still cold...

From what I was given on the FORD Hotline Assistance Request thermostat is fully open at 202degrees and operating temp is (202-212degrees(again depending on the conditions present and if the engine is operation at that time)).

Warm coolant tank could be from coolant expanding in ICE and pushing back into coolant tank.I looked up thermostat operating range and it is about 20degrees F so in theory the thermostat starts to open around 182*F and is fully opened at 202*F :)

 

Paul

Edited January 1, 2014 by ptjones

[acdii]

In theory. In reality though, there is too much bypass of the thermostat. If the ICE is cold after driving, then its thermostat is either opening too soon, or there is too much bypass in the system. A properly running cooling system will have cold hoses to the radiator and warm hoses to the heater core until the engine temp reaches the thermostat opening temp, then the radiator hoses will warm up. Until the engine actually reaches the full 210*+(GM used to run at 230*), the radiator hoses will never be hot.

 

This is what I am fairly certain caused the plugs to foul on that first car and why it NEVER ran right even in 70*+ weather. Like I said before, the cooling system is too efficient. Best way to find out if it has too much bypass is with a flow meter to the radiator.

[hybridbear]

This morning temps were -10F driving to Owatonna, the warmest the coolant got was 85C according to ET mode. It mostly sat around 80-82C. After the drive home tonight I will check under hood temps again by hand.

[hybridbear]

Coming home tonight the outside temp was -2F. Coolant temps were the same as this morning. Hand temp check under the hood when I got home again found that the coolant reservoir was hot to the touch. What is going on?? I think this cooling system is too powerful and too efficient.

[ptjones]

Coming home tonight the outside temp was -2F. Coolant temps were the same as this morning. Hand temp check under the hood when I got home again found that the coolant reservoir was hot to the touch. What is going on?? I think this cooling system is too powerful and too efficient.

Your temps = 176*-180*F which means thermostat didn't open and I still think coolant is expanding into coolant tank from hot ICE 176*-180* is going to make tank warm. Remember all cooling of the ICE is being done by the surface of ICE until thermostat opens. I agree the system is to efficient under your conditions. I have some ideas how to improve things but it will be awhile before I will have time to work on them. The ideal system would be automated and you wouldn't have to think about it. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

Your temps = 176*-180*F which means thermostat didn't open and I still think coolant is expanding into coolant tank from hot ICE 176*-180* is going to make tank warm. Remember all cooling of the ICE is being done by the surface of ICE until thermostat opens. I agree the system is to efficient under your conditions. I have some ideas how to improve things but it will be awhile before I will have time to work on them. The ideal system would be automated and you wouldn't have to think about it. :)

 

Paul

The coolant reservoir isn't getting warm from the ICE. Other parts near the coolant reservoir or even actually closer to the ICE than the coolant reservoir are cold, but the coolant reservoir is warm. It also has condensation on the inside of the bottle. I don't know much about how cooling systems work, but want to understand it better.

 

The coolant lines to the radiator were also warm indicating that warm coolant was flowing through the radiator...

[ptjones]

The coolant reservoir isn't getting warm from the ICE. Other parts near the coolant reservoir or even actually closer to the ICE than the coolant reservoir are cold, but the coolant reservoir is warm. It also has condensation on the inside of the bottle. I don't know much about how cooling systems work, but want to understand it better.

 

The coolant lines to the radiator were also warm indicating that warm coolant was flowing through the radiator...

I'm not explaining things very well, I will try again. As the coolant heats up in the ICE it expands and the only place it can go is the coolant tank. Usually there are cold and hot marks on the side of coolant tank so you can see how much the coolant expands.This is the only way the tank can heat up. If the radiator hoses were warm the thermostat must of started to open letting some coolant through the radiator hoses. :) If you still can't get to 202*F I would look at insulating the oil pan. IMO

 

Paul