Why does our elec motor pull so much power?

[Eddie Sessum]

Did a comparison here the other day with my MKZ vs a Tesla S.

 

Basicly at completely cooled off , ac off, etc etc. I go floored on ev (gas engine running but doing its warmup thing) and the tesla s is keeping up right there with me by the other driver adjusting throttle. I went thru a full charge which is the 1.4amp hours or however its worded.. The night before i held the foot down to let it charge up untill it stopped charging, may have been slightly under but the car still showed full.

 

In the same run the tesla used 0.3 of the same amp hours. What gives?

 

 

And for those asking, its a badass car. You can almost feel the front wheels pull off the ground when you stomp it.

[lolder]

The amount of energy used shown on the HVB gauge is not the full range of battery capacity. The normal range between H and L on the FFH is probably from 30% to 80%. The ICE was contributing to the energy required by generating electricity and propelling the car directly. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. I think the Tesla is a heavier car with a more powerfull electric motor and a HVB 40 times bigger. The energy used from the HVB's would be in the units kilowatt-hours and the amount used would be less in the FFH because the ICE always contributes when it is running and the Tesla is heavier. I don't think you can read the Kw-Hrs in the FFH.

[Eddie Sessum]

FFH is 1.4 the tesla p85 stands for the battery. It's a 85 battery.

[hybridbear]

To get an understanding of the electric motor efficiency you should compare the MPGe of the Tesla with the MPGe of a Fusion Energi. The FFE is more efficient than the Tesla. The Tesla is heavier and has a larger, more powerful electric motor. Just like how ICE cars with a larger ICE are less efficient than an ICE car with a smaller ICE in the same, lower load driving conditions the Tesla will be less efficient in most situations when compared with the Fusion Energi. The FFH electric motors appears to not be exactly the same as the FFE, but it's very close.

[lolder]

To get an understanding of the electric motor efficiency you should compare the MPGe of the Tesla with the MPGe of a Fusion Energi. The FFE is more efficient than the Tesla. The Tesla is heavier and has a larger, more powerful electric motor. Just like how ICE cars with a larger ICE are less efficient than an ICE car with a smaller ICE in the same, lower load driving conditions the Tesla will be less efficient in most situations when compared with the Fusion Energi. The FFH electric motors appears to not be exactly the same as the FFE, but it's very close.

What do you think is different in the FFH from the FFE? I wondered if that might be the case until the software change bumped the EV speed to the same 86 mph. The size of all FFH motor/generators seem overly large in size and rating for the cars size. Electrical generators and motors ratings are very much affected by the temperature. Perhaps they just increased the cooling pump speed or electric cooling radiator size. If the mechanical integrety of the windings was less, they wouldn't have increased the EV speed which linearly increases the maximum MG 1 speed and puts much more centrifical force on the windings.

Edited September 19, 2013 by lolder

[hybridbear]

What do you think is different in the FFH from the FFE? I wondered if that might be the case until the software change bumped the EV speed to the same 86 mph. The size of all FFH motor/generators seem overly large in size and rating for the cars size. Electrical generators and motors ratings are very much affected by the temperature. Perhaps they just increased the cooling pump speed or electric cooling radiator size. If the mechanical integrety of the windings was less, they wouldn't have increased the EV speed which linearly increases the maximum MG 1 speed and puts much more centrifical force on the windings.

When I've driven my parents' C-Max Energi a few times I've found that I regen a lot more than the FFH does. One trip where I always get 60+ MPG in the FFH and about 1.3-1.4 regen miles returned 170 MPGe and about 2.5 regen miles in the Energi. I don't know if this is just because the calculation is different or if the Energi can do more regen. I believe the Energi with its larger HVB can charge and discharge faster than the hybrid. I had attributed that to the size of the generator and the HVB. Since the Energi also has a higher combined hp output I assume that the setup is different. I don't have any specific data that proves there is a difference, but that has been my assumption based on the evidence.

 

I know that the Energi could have the exact same electric motors as the hybrid and that the above differences could just be computer programming. But even if the Energi does have the exact same physical parts that doesn't mean that the Energi's MPGe ratings would really compare to how our hybrids operate in EV mode because the computer programming is different.

[lolder]

It's probably the size of the HVB and it's higher input and output rate in Kw. In the 2010 FFH, the maximum output of the MG1 in generator mode plus the maximum output of the HVB in Kw is less than the Kw rating of MG 2 in the motor mode so I think the MGs were somewhat oversized for the future. During max acceleration that is a condition that occurs when the ICE drives the wheels and generator which together with the HVB powers the motor. Ford brought the transmission manufacture back in house for the 2013 from Aisin in Japan. It looks very similar to the Aisin unit but they claim it is improved. I think it was probably sized from the start at Aisin for higher power HVBs. Electric motors have a factor which indicates how much more than rated power they can deliver and it can be twice the rated power in some motors. It's related to temperature rise so the cooling system may be the bigger factor.

[TX NRG]

When I've driven my parents' C-Max Energi a few times I've found that I regen a lot more than the FFH does. One trip where I always get 60+ MPG in the FFH and about 1.3-1.4 regen miles returned 170 MPGe and about 2.5 regen miles in the Energi. I don't know if this is just because the calculation is different or if the Energi can do more regen. I believe the Energi with its larger HVB can charge and discharge faster than the hybrid. I had attributed that to the size of the generator and the HVB.

That's an interesting finding on the difference in regen between the models. The 76 smaller FFH cell's electrodes are thinner than those in the 84 larger Energi cells giving them lower impedance and allowing faster discharging and charging in the FFH. Also remember that the FFH HVB is rated at 1.4 kWh vs a smaller 1.1 kWh for the hybrid portion of the Energi HVB. I would think then that the FFH would be able to regen more than the Energi under the same conditions. However, the Energi pack has a higher peak voltage during regenerative braking (361 vs 327) so that favors more regen for the Energi. Go figure.

[Eddie Sessum]

That's an interesting finding on the difference in regen between the models. The 76 smaller FFH cell's electrodes are thinner than those in the 84 larger Energi cells giving them lower impedance and allowing faster discharging and charging in the FFH. Also remember that the FFH HVB is rated at 1.4 kWh vs a smaller 1.1 kWh for the hybrid portion of the Energi HVB. I would think then that the FFH would be able to regen more than the Energi under the same conditions. However, the Energi pack has a higher peak voltage during regenerative braking (361 vs 327) so that favors more regen for the Energi. Go figure.

 

 

Here is something else that confuses me. I understand limiting ICE regen to a certain amount. But why doesnt ford allow the energi to charge the plug in battery off regen if there is enough power? People in the mountains get alot of downhill. Ive stayed at "lower" cabins in the smokeys before and its still a 2000-2500ft decent of about 10 miles. Wouldnt this be enough to charge the plug in battery? There is a 300ft tall bridge here i can get about 30% charge out of going down it with ACC hitting the brakes on me.

[TX NRG]

Here is something else that confuses me. I understand limiting ICE regen to a certain amount. But why doesnt ford allow the energi to charge the plug in battery off regen if there is enough power? People in the mountains get alot of downhill. Ive stayed at "lower" cabins in the smokeys before and its still a 2000-2500ft decent of about 10 miles. Wouldnt this be enough to charge the plug in battery? There is a 300ft tall bridge here i can get about 30% charge out of going down it with ACC hitting the brakes on me.

 

It does! On a long descent, the Energi can regen the hybrid portion of the HVB and the plug-in portion all the way until it is fully charged. FusionDad wrote about this in his trip down from Pikes Peak.

 

http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/1019-anyone-taken-a-long-road-trip-yet/?do=findComment&comment=7006

[Eddie Sessum]

That's sad to hear now.. When I was reading up before I purchased I saw about how the hybrid system could only charge the small portion and the larger was only from the elec plug. I guess the money saved will go towards whatever I get next in a couple years.. Maybe we will get that 600lb wieght reduction I keep seeing about all hybrid cars wanting to be under 3k lb.