New Electrical Issue - Hill Assist? Driver Error?

[keybman]

Has anyone else experienced something similar to the following?

 

Last week, I did some volunteer work at a downtown food bank and parked outside in their parking lot. At lunch time, I pulled out of the spot, turned right, onto a neighborhood street and then right again as I approached the interstate's feeder road. Just then, warnings galore began rapidfire! Hill Assist ... AdvanceTrac ... etc There were so many trouble alerts and warning lights that I could not begin to remember them all. Plus, I was driving and had to pay attention to my surroundings. At the same time, the car did not want to move. When I pressed on the accelerator, it barely responded. It felt as if I was suddenly pulling a heavy trailer. I was able to limp my weak-powered car to the next block and into a gas station's parking area.

Because of the heavy drag I was feeling, I began to wonder if maybe I had accidently initiated the electric parking brake. Never having used this before (it's mostly level ground here), I pulled out the owner's manual, and promptly ended up setting the parking brake. It seemed to work as it should, so I disengaged it (eventually!) and turned off the vehicle. I waited a bit and then turned the car on again. The warning lights were still there so I turned it off again and waited a couple of minutes. I started it up, and went ahead and tested it again on the road. It struggled to get up to highway speed but being only a couple of miles away, I made it to my lunch destination, warnings blaring and parked the vehicle. After the hour lunch, I got in, fired up the FFH, and everything was normal. No lights, no warnings, no acceleration issue - it was if it had never happened. And there has not been a similar incident since.

My working possibilities list are
1) maybe I pressed the Hill Assist button on the gear shift. Would that have caused the car to react and drive as it did?
2) maybe the battery was overheated. It was 97 degrees air temperature at the time and the car is usually in a parking garage during the heat of the day
3) maybe this was the 12V battery problem again. But last time, it showed completely different trouble codes, and did not affect acceleration.
4) maybe this is just another quirky one time incident (like my defrost turning on blasting full heat at random, radio turning on by itself, etc)
5) maybe the computer was overheated and just went crazy for a bit

Any ideas? I am willing to forgive and forget it ever happened, otherwise.

[corncobs]

Before I saw your list the first thing that crossed my mind was heat!

Mine showed 100F when I left work today but the car was fine no crazy warning messages.

 

I actually have seen an over heating issue with my iPhone it went all crazy on me after being exposed to the sun insight the car while driving.

 

So heat is a possibility but your FFH shouldn't freak out like this. Did you do the VHR by any chance while this was going on?

Edited July 17, 2013 by corncobs

[hybridbear]

It's not the Hill Assist! Sounds like a heat issue possibly. If it happens again try running a VHR while the warnings are displaying. Also, do you have any fault codes stored if you pull up Engineering Test Mode?

[keybman]

Before I saw your list the first thing that crossed my mind was heat!

Mine showed 100F when I left work today but the car was fine no crazy warning messages.

 

I actually have seen an over heating issue with my iPhone it went all crazy on me after being exposed to the sun insight the car while driving.

 

So heat is a possibility but your FFH shouldn't freak out like this. Did you do the VHR by any chance while this was going on?

 

My thought too. After all, this was the first time that I had parked her outside in the summer sun during the heat of the day. But, the reaction just baffles me...don't understand why the driving was affected.

 

And no, I did not run a VHR at the time. But I did just look up VHR in the manual and will now go sign up - then I'll be ready for the next time. (hopefully never!)

[keybman]

It's not the Hill Assist! Sounds like a heat issue possibly. If it happens again try running a VHR while the warnings are displaying. Also, do you have any fault codes stored if you pull up Engineering Test Mode?

 

I was able to find information on the VHR (so I can run it next time), but can not find info on the Engineering Test Mode. Can you help me get there?

[hybridbear]

I was able to find information on the VHR (so I can run it next time), but can not find info on the Engineering Test Mode. Can you help me get there?

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/6749-engineering-test-mode/

Hope this helps

[keybman]

Perfect. Thank you, hb. I look forward to seeing the output.

[keybman]

Ran the Engineering Test Mode...pretty cool concept to know how to access this feature. Thanks again, hb.

 

And no fault codes listed. It is as if the event never happened. Hmmm...maybe that's another working theory - 6) the heat was affecting MY brain and it never really occurred.

[acdii]

A low 12V will throw a tome of error codes. It may be possible that the 12V was affected by the heat, and after your drive it charged and cooled enough for the warnings to go away, which could also be why no codes. I had test driven a focus that had a low 12v and it too did the same thing, although no power loss, but tons of warnings. The power loss could be attributed to the low battery and certain functions not having enough juice to fire all circuits.

[keybman]

I appreciate your response, acdii. Having a similar experience in Feb (albeit different code/faults/warnings), there are certainly some commonalities. And the diagnosis then was a bad 12V battery, which was replaced. The main difference is as you mentioned, no loss of power. Also, it was a mid-February night, so no heat to deal with. It also happened immediately upon ignition, with codes galore a’flashin’.

 

But the loss of power this time leads me to my current working theory…Traction Control System. According to the OM, if the “vehicle begins to slide, the system applies the brakes to individual wheels and, when needed, reduces engine power at the same time.” This accurately describes what I was experiencing. And going through the Engineering Test Mode, I was able to identify the 2 of the lights that remained illuminated for my short lunch drive – Stability Control and Stability Control Off lights. Either through the driving conditions at the time (downhill out of the parking lot exit while turning) or through an overheated 12V battery causing things to go on the fritz - this system was both activated for the initial 2 blocks, then turned off. And if I add to this your supposition that my subsequent lunch drive allowed the 12V to charge and then cool, then perhaps this mystery is solved.

 

The above theory is also bolstered by the fact that there was no fault code listed in the ETM suggesting that the FFH was acting “normally” in utilizing a feature.

[lolder]

No lights or alarms like you mention in th OP are normal and should not result from any normal driving mode. They test these cars in the desert and heat shouldn't be a problem. If you've not replaced the 12 vdc battery, do so as it can have strange effects. You should probably go to the dealer to document the event.

Edited July 27, 2013 by lolder

[terryb]

I had a '96 Corvette for a couple years and one of its quirks was to treat a sharp turn as a traction loss event because of the big gap in rear wheel speed. It had a solenoid it used to counter accelerator input and it flashed the traction control light on the dash. If the exit from the parking lot was an acute angle turn, this might be the resulting action of all the cars technology. You might give it another exposure to that turn IF the turn WAS an acute event. My work parking lot exit turn and cars response were repeatable.

[Barsoom]

Just to be precise, I don't think the FFH has Hill Assist. My car in ETIS shows Hill Assist removed.

 

I think the FFH has Hill Descent mode, which is different.

 

Hill Assist is supposed to keep the car from rolling backwards when starting from a stop on a hill. It holds the car in position for a few seconds while you begin accelerating.

 

Hill Descent on the FFH changes the torque on the motor to add more resistance to simulate engine breaking, keeping the car from runaway acceleration when going downhill on steep grades.

 

I think the EV on the FFH has an automatic behavior similar to Hill Assist that keeps the car from rolling back when starting from a stop on an incline. Furthermore, the EV will engage along with the ICE to provide more power when accelerating on an incline, but the computer decides when to do this. This EV behavior is not Hill Assist.

[GrySql]

Just to be precise, I don't think the FFH has Hill Assist. My car in ETIS shows Hill Assist removed.

It's called Hill Start Assist (Pg 176) and my car has it. It is printed on the Window Sticker under the heading Functional as Standard Equipment.

I don't think I have consciously used it although I have parked on many a hill, it works so automatically that the car does not exhibit rollback on slopes.

 

Page 102 of the OM shows the Informational Display Message you get when it's not functioning correctly "Hill Start Assist Not Available".

 

For your records when you get Dash Warnings/Alerts it's a good idea to send a Vehicle Health Report (Pg 309) from your car directly to the Ford SyncmyRide website, then go there and print that VHR out so you can show the Dealer exactly what happened. VHR's are replaced with any new one and removed from the website after 30 days so printing it is important for your information trail.

BTW, don't have your foot on the brake pedal while sending a VHR, it will send an erroneous report.

 

Edited July 27, 2013 by GrySql

[Barsoom]

Yes, my window sticker says the same thing.

 

But ETIS says something different. ETIS says, in the fourth entry on the Minor Features: Less Hill Launch Assist

 

Look at the display options in your manual on page 88. Go to your car and look at the Settings -> Driver Assist on the left-side display screen. Do you see a Hill Assist On/Off option like the manual says? I don't.

 

So, the window sticker says it's there but the build history says it was removed from the build.

 

Look up your own VIN in the Ford system and see for yourself.

 

http://www.etis.ford.com/vehicleSelection.do

 

I, like you, thought it was there. Does "Less" in ETIS mean "removed?" Is this a "feature" that Ford removed at the last minute, or is it another build mistake that nobody has called out yet?

Edited July 27, 2013 by Barsoom

[murphy]

ETIS is only good for getting your build date. It's a european site and they don't have the Fusion in Europe. The fact that it doesn't get the car name right is the first clue that everything else should also be suspect.

 

That said there are also problems with the window sticker.

Mine says I have "Integrated Spotter Mirrors" but I don't have them presumably because of the BLIS indicators.

Edited July 27, 2013 by murphy

[GrySql]

Yes, my window sticker says the same thing.

 

Look at the display options in your manual on page 88. Go to your car and look at the Settings -> Driver Assist on the left-side display screen.

Do you see a Hill Assist On/Off option like the manual says? I don't.

I see what you mean, no Hill Assist in my Display in the Settings.

 

Still, when my car was at the 1500 mile mark (December 2012) I had numerous "Hill Start Assist' and 'Traction Control Not Working' Alerts on the Display.

(One reason that I supposed that my car was equipped with Hill Start Assist)

I would pull over and re-start the car, that usually returned it to normal, sometimes it would take overnight and a drive cycle to re-set (which I now find is normal for many of the Display Alerts).

I did send VHR's to the website and then took the car in for service. The Tech was able to see the VHR Warnings on his computer and spent two days trying to figure it out.

Finally, they were told by the Ford Hotline to re-set the system by using a 'Hard Reset', like re-booting a computer.

Basically they don't know why it did that, re-booted it and told me to try it out and return if it reoccurred.

As a first time hybrid owner I was not impressed with this 'hopeful' type repair strategy.

However, those Alerts/Warnings did not re-appear.

 

Over time other Display Alerts have popped up and I carefully keep copies of all my VHR's so if the problem persists I have proof.

Luckily, I love driving this car and put up with these early production fine tuning events of the hybrid system.

Edited July 27, 2013 by GrySql

[Barsoom]

So the question still remains. Does the FFH have Hill Start Assist or not?

 

The sticker says yes, but ETIS says no. The accuracy of each is questioned. The build a car system on the Ford site doesn't mention Hill Start Assist in any summaries.

 

I'm assuming that the manual is a generic Fusion manual, not a specific hybrid manual, so Hill Start Assist may be a feature of a standard combustion engine but not needed in the Atkinson Cycle engine?

 

At this point, I'm thinking that the FFH does NOT have Hill Start Assist until someone can convince me otherwise.

[corncobs]

At this point, I'm thinking that the FFH does NOT have Hill Start Assist until someone can convince me otherwise.

I'm with you just because it doesn't make a lot of sense since the FFH only comes with a automatic transmission and doesn't have a clutch as far as I know. With letting go of the brake the FFH starts rollinging without additional throttle input which is probably also enough to hold the car on an incline.

 

A real Hill Start Assist only makes sense in combination with a manual transmission because the car will keep applying the brakes for around 3 sec so the driver can get the clutch worked out. It helps avoid the little roll back when switching from brake to throttle the clutch grabs.

 

http://blog.truecar.com/2012/01/31/spotlight-on-technology-hill-hold-or-hill-start-assist-technology-makes-steep-road-starts-safer-for-drivers/

[murphy]

The manual is specific to the Fusion Hybrid and the Fusion Energi. Look at the cover page. The standard Fusion has a different manual.

 

It's easy enough to test.

Stop the car facing up a significant hill.

Take your foot off of the brake.

If it doesn't have Hill Start Assist it will immediately start rolling backward.

If it does have Hill Start Assist it will stay in place for up to three seconds before it starts to roll backward.

See page 177. It is an option but if it's on the sticker you should have it.

 

Even if it doesn't have it the electric parking brake can be used in place of it.

If the parking brake is on and you start to drive forward the brake will automatically release.

See page 182.

[Barsoom]

>> It's easy enough to test.

 

An easier test is to just find the Driver Assist -> Hill Start Assist -> On/Off setting as listed in the manual on page 88.

 

Do you see it in your car? I don't.

 

I don't need to roll the car on a hill to see if the setting as depicted in the manal exists in my car.

[murphy]

What printing of the manual do you have? It's at the bottom of the back cover.

 

Page 88 of the second and third printing show "EV: Later" for an Energi.

Driver Assist starts on page 93.

 

Hill Start Assist is not under Driver Assist in my car or in my manual.

It is on my sticker.

 

That leaves two possibilities.

It's not in the car.

It's in the car and they removed the ability to turn it off.

[corncobs]

For mine

 

It's on my window sticker, ETIS indicates "Less Hill Launch Assist" and I'm sure my FFH doesn't roll back on a hill.

 

On a side note; according to ETIS my FFH also doesn't have ESC, rear seat belts (and I have three)

 

Like others have said before at this point I wouldn't trust ETIS besides the build date.

[GrySql]

I have both Owner's Manuals, the standard gas only Fusion (3rd Printing, 02/13) and the Hybrid/Energi version.

• In the gas Fusion OM the 'Settings' start on page 88 and the Settings>Driver Assist>Hill Start>On/Off choice is on page 89.

• The FFH OM has the Settings>Driver Assist info on pages 93 and 94 and the Hill Start option is not printed there.

It is mentioned on page 176 with the proviso 'if equipped".

My only personal reference is the Window Sticker and the Dealer's Service receipt showing they worked on that issue.

 

However, I can also understand that a system like that could be used in a car with a manual transmission, and not needed with the eCVT.

I can also understand if that Hill Start Assist warning is always coupled with the 'Traction' Warning/Alert.

 

In summary, I am now leaning toward the conclusion that the FFH data is just boiler plate printing in the OM and Window Sticker.

Why the Hill Start Alert might appear in the Dash Display could also be a software decision that is generated when a vehicle loses it's Traction Control.

 

Lot's of other inconsistencies are evident in the OM and by all these ongoing TSB's to correct one thing and another.

One thing I do know for sure, my car had that Warning/Alert several times simultaneously with the Loss of Traction Control Alert and the Dealer told me they saw it as a Trouble Code.

Whether the FFH actually has that same system is open to conjecture, but why would it with the eCVT?

Perplexing isn't it? :)

Edited July 28, 2013 by GrySql

[Barsoom]

I was looking at the Second Printing manual (November 2012) that I downloaded when I took possession of the car in February 2013. The build date of my car is February 6, 2013.

 

I'll update later with the version of the printed manual in the car.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Barsoom