Battery saver message

[Easy Rider]

It's a standard wet cell lead acid battery. Letting the SOC go that low is not a good idea.

 

+1

 

So.....assuming that you just didn't get a defective battery.......what might be causing it to go that low ?

 

I'm surprised that it still works at a 30% SOC.

 

Do you drive the car infrequently ?

Are you in the habit of sitting there in the ACC mode instead of READY ?

 

There is a remote chance that they installed a battery that was never charged up like it should have been and it just gradually failed over time.

 

I they replace the battery again, make SURE that it gets fully charged at least once.

And it doesn't get driven regularly, consider getting a battery tender.

[marklally]

The battery SOC was at 50%, hence the BS message. The new programing installed today is what will allow it to go to 30% before activating the BS message. The car is driven regularly and I do not sit long in the ACC mode very often at all. I charged the battery today to a full charge since Ford's answer to the problem is to lower the BS message threshold. I just find in incomprehensible that Ford considers a LVB SOC at just over 30% to be a normal condition. What I can't understand is why Ford would not want to keep the LVB at a high state of charge, it's just a matter of programing and for the life of me, I don't see the down side.

[Easy Rider]

What I can't understand is why Ford would not want to keep the LVB at a high state of charge, it's just a matter of programing and for the life of me, I don't see the down side.

They want to extend the interval that a dying battery lasts before changing it out, thereby going past the warranty period maybe.

I think it is a despicable change to make. At 30%, you are on the verge of a complete shutdown.

 

The "system" will keep a healthy battery at a respectable SOC under most conditions.

Their "fix" isn't a fix at all. It just postpones the treatment until the "cancer" gets much worse.

 

P.S. I think mine might only maintain the charge at 85% or so because I connect my tender after it sits idle for 2 weeks or so and it always takes about 14 hours to get it full again.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Easy Rider

[Barsoom]

As was discussed in other threads, the LVB runs the lights, A/C, radio, computers, etc. The expectation is that it is charged up during normal driving. The reality for many of us has been that we are short-hop drivers, and we don't run the cars long enough on a single drive to recharge these batteries.

[Easy Rider]

As was discussed in other threads, the LVB runs the lights, A/C, radio, computers, etc. The expectation is that it is charged up during normal driving. The reality for many of us has been that we are short-hop drivers, and we don't run the cars long enough on a single drive to recharge these batteries.

And it is bad on a battery's health to LEAVE it sit at low levels of charge.

 

So Ford's solution is to let it sit at an EVEN LOWER charge before the car warns you about it ??????

 

Exactly the wrong thing to do.......unless you are just trying to save a few bucks on warranty claims.

 

I think that "fix" is reprehensible.

[marklally]

I live in a rural area, so my trips are usually 20 miles of more; I also use the climate control sparingly and I drive very little at night, so I would say that I am less demanding on the LVB than a great deal of people. I am normally a person that drives a car until the wheels fall of, but as I could not imagine living with the "my ford touch" system for that period time, I decided that I would be trading this car for a newer one when they improved the interface system to one that is acceptable. Because of my experience with MFT and what ford has decided to do about this BS situation and even though I have been driving nothing but Ford's since I started driving ( I am 50 now) I will be looking at the competition the next go around. The 2016 Malibu hybrid looks very interesting.

[smr2112]

My car is going back to dealer as my LVB issues persist, but not causing operating shutdown

or major problems, just quick shutdowns once car is off. Usually less than 1 minute and I have

been topping it off on the tender once a month. I do have a short hop to work and back, so that

could be making it worse.

So couple of questions I have been curious about....

 

1. Do we know if there is some common factor of many of us having cars that are 1.5 - 2.5 years old now?

My car is exactly 2 years old now. Somebody do some cluster analysis and see if there is a build date

correlation.... :)

 

2. Does getting a new battery + the TSB reprogram solve the problem for those who drive short hops?

Depending what the dealer says, I'll spring for a new 12V battery if it saves some headache. I know,

Ford should be paying if the battery is bad, but it's not worth my time to take 5 trips to the dealer. But

I'll push the dealer to make Ford pay if that's what it is.

 

In all the forum posts, do we really know what the root cause(s) are for this? Still not clear to me.

Or at least what the most likely fix is for most people.

 

 

 

 

 

[marklally]

I haven't heard an answer as to what the root problem is, but the fix seems VERY simple to me... Program the controller to keep the LVB at a proper state of charge; this seems to be such a no brainer, I just cant understand why Ford has not done this. I will say this again, it would seem that whom ever is in charge of deciding these parameters is treating the LVB like it is a lithium ion battery also. I really do wish our Ford rep would investigate this and chime in on the conversation.

[smr2112]

Ok, fair enough and this makes sense. Does the TSB they have for this fix the issue or not really?

Does getting a brand new version of the 12V battery + TSB seems to solve the problem?

 

Or is there nothing that has been 100% definite fix for everybody who has had this issue?

[murphy]

The problem is that there are many microprocessors that must remain powered all of the time. Alarm system, IA key transponders, keypad on the B post, etc. Although the drain on the battery is small it is always there. If the car is driven a lot of miles (more than 25) on a daily basis there should not be a problem. If the car can sit for a week at a time without being driven then the 12 volt battery will be slowly discharged. The design problem, IMHO as an electrical engineer, is that a wet cell lead acid battery was the wrong choice for this car. Because of the way they are designed, for cars with starter motors, they are not meant to ever be discharged to less than about 80% SOC. Their typical use is to supply a large burst of current to start the engine and then be immediately recharged. When a "starter" battery is significantly discharged physical damage to the lead plates happens. The damage can not be undone. Material comes off of the plates and collects at the bottom of the cell. When the pile of debris gets high enough to reach the bottom of the plates the cell shorts out and that is the end of the battery. The better battery for this application is an AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery. They are not damaged by low SOC levels and have a higher output voltage at low SOC levels. I put one in my 2013 Energi and have not seen the low battery warning message since the installation. It is not an easy installation because of the limited space. I had to remove the battery tray and cut the end off of it to allow the larger AGM battery to fit. The problem for Ford is that an AGM battery costs a lot more than a wet cell battery. I have more than one car and the Energi can sit for a week without being driven. I charge the 12 volt battery with a battery charger that has an AGM setting and can measure the SOC. I have seen the SOC as low as 37% without getting the low battery warning.

[smr2112]

OK, I like the technical explanation, this makes perfect sense.

 

Short of us putting in these better batteries, can I assume there is very little we can do about this other

than to just drive the car more and/or keeping it on a battery tender? The TSB programming may help,

but not a full answer. A brand new battery may help, but will eventually have the same issue under

the same conditions.

 

In other words, we have to live with it as is unless we want to install a special battery.

[hybridbear]

Buying an Energi should help. ;) The Energi charges the 12V battery while charging the HVB. We had BS issues in the FFH. I used a battery tender to fix it. With the Energi the 12V SOC is rarely lower than 85% according to the car.

[smr2112]

The tender is a workaround, not a fix really for the Hybrid. So does the TSB that reprograms charging

fix this, or no, not really. I still don't know if the TSB is a full fix, partial fix, or not a fix at all.

 

I am referring to TSB 13-6-23

[FordService]

My car is going back to dealer as my LVB issues persist, but not causing operating shutdown

or major problems, just quick shutdowns once car is off. Usually less than 1 minute and I have

been topping it off on the tender once a month. I do have a short hop to work and back, so that

could be making it worse.

So couple of questions I have been curious about....

I haven't heard an answer as to what the root problem is, but the fix seems VERY simple to me... Program the controller to keep the LVB at a proper state of charge; this seems to be such a no brainer, I just cant understand why Ford has not done this. I will say this again, it would seem that whom ever is in charge of deciding these parameters is treating the LVB like it is a lithium ion battery also. I really do wish our Ford rep would investigate this and chime in on the conversation.

I'd love to. Since I'm not a technician or engineer, I don't have information on fixes or the like. Your dealer will be in the best position to discuss this with, and anyone with this concern heading to the dealer is the best way to get this documented and sent up to the engineers. What I can do is check out some additional assistance for whomever is experiencing this. I see marklally and smr2112 on a quick read, in the recent posts at least. So, for you two, and anyone else still having these symptoms, please send me a private message with your VIN, mileage, best daytime phone number, full name, and dealer name/location. :)

 

Meagan

[Easy Rider]

but the fix seems VERY simple to me...

 

That is your opinion but that does NOT make it truth.

 

Several models of the Pruis suffers from the same kind of problem.

I think I've seen Volt complaints too.

 

You can't engineer for every possible situation.

 

The battery is a bit too small; almost all hybrid owners think that.

You can only charge a battery SO fast without damage.

 

I personally think that a good bit of the problem is battery DAMAGE by being misused at the dealerships.

I,E. Letting the battery get low and then letting it just SIT there like that for long periods of time.

 

Even if you do short trips, I think the fix is a well charged new AGM type battery.

They are less prone to damage from being left at 50% charge or less.

 

And then if you KNOW you are in the target population for the problem, throw it on a charger overnight ever couple of weeks.

 

It's pretty certain that Ford is not going to admit to any mistake here so staying worked up about it does nothing but shorten YOUR life span.

 

Once again, pretty much ALL hybrids on the road now suffer from similar problems.

Even some "conventional" cars do too; Granny only drives to church on Sundays and it is only 6 blocks away type of thing.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Easy Rider

[Automate]

The problem is that there are many microprocessors that must remain powered all of the time. Alarm system, IA key transponders, keypad on the B post, etc. Although the drain on the battery is small it is always there. If the car is driven a lot of miles (more than 25) on a daily basis there should not be a problem. If the car can sit for a week at a time without being driven then the 12 volt battery will be slowly discharged. The design problem, IMHO as an electrical engineer, is that a wet cell lead acid battery was the wrong choice for this car. Because of the way they are designed, for cars with starter motors, they are not meant to ever be discharged to less than about 80% SOC. Their typical use is to supply a large burst of current to start the engine and then be immediately recharged. When a "starter" battery is significantly discharged physical damage to the lead plates happens. The damage can not be undone. Material comes off of the plates and collects at the bottom of the cell. When the pile of debris gets high enough to reach the bottom of the plates the cell shorts out and that is the end of the battery. The better battery for this application is an AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery. They are not damaged by low SOC levels and have a higher output voltage at low SOC levels. I put one in my 2013 Energi and have not seen the low battery warning message since the installation. It is not an easy installation because of the limited space. I had to remove the battery tray and cut the end off of it to allow the larger AGM battery to fit. The problem for Ford is that an AGM battery costs a lot more than a wet cell battery. I have more than one car and the Energi can sit for a week without being driven. I charge the 12 volt battery with a battery charger that has an AGM setting and can measure the SOC. I have seen the SOC as low as 37% without getting the low battery warning.

 

While I agree that AGM batteries are much better than wet cell batteries I don't think the wet cells on their own are the root cause for the problem. I also agree the load from the electronics which are still powered up when the key is off is a contributing factor. The FFH's small 12V battery size and battery quality issues are the main culprits. The vast majority of cars sold today use wet cell batteries. These cars also need to power loads when the key is off to run microprocessors, alarms, IA key transponders, keypads etc just like the FFH. The difference is they have a larger standard size wet cell battery.

 

The FFH's engineers probably thought since the 12V battery does not need to run the starter they could get away with a smaller battery and save cost and weight. They probably didn't think as much about the load on the battery over an extended period of time when the key is off.

 

I also think the FFH batteries have had higher than normal quality problems. The FFH 12V battery is smaller than a standard battery and there are probably a limited number of battery vendors that are set up to make this small battery. So when Ford started seeing the battery quality issues it was not easy for them to just switch to another battery vendor to solve the quality issue.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Automate

[murphy]

How long ago was that ?

I initially cut the battery tray in September 2013 and put in a full size wet cell battery. That worked a lot better but my engineering mind decided that was a partial fix so in December 2013 I put in the AGM battery.

[Easy Rider]

 

The FFH 12V battery is smaller than a standard battery and there are probably a limited number of battery vendors that are set up to make this small battery. So when Ford started seeing the battery quality issues it was not easy for them to just switch to another battery vendor to solve the quality issue.

 

That sounds logical but......a multitude of brands have AGMs for large lawn mowers and those aren't that different than the current crop of batteries in hybrids, either in size or capacity.

I think they likely will catch up soon.

Batteries Plus seems to be a leader in this regard.

[LadyDi]

I have a 2013 FFH and I have had the same BS message problem now for 2.5 years. They have replaced the battery now 3 times and no TSB have been applied. I drive long distances 70 miles each way on the weekends(total 140 miles) and short hops during the week(less than 30 miles). On Friday 1/22 I drove my 70 miles and then on Saturday I drove a few miles to do errands and then on Sunday 1/24 I drove 70 miles. I didn't drive the car at all on Monday and on Tuesday, taking out the car out of the garage to do some work in the garage I got the BS message. I called the dealership once again and set up another appointment on that coming Friday 1/29. I drove the car on Wednesday afternoon to the airport and left it overnight and by that Thursday night 1/28, I was stranded at the airport with a dead car battery. I couldn't even unlock the doors. I'm so sick of this. As a woman, I just don't feel secure thinking that this car is going to leave me stranded at any time. Standing around waiting for road side assistance in a parking garage was an uneasy feeling. I bought this new car for peace of mind. The car is back at the dealership so we'll see what the next steps will be. I saw comments that the problem only happens when you only drive short distances is not true for my experience.

[Hybrider]

So as GrySql used to like to say, the FFH Forum strikes again.

 

As I mentioned recently in a different topic, my plan is to replace my 12V battery every two years, whether it is good or bad, just to ensure it doesn't go completely dead on me when I need it most. Well about 1 month before my FFH was 2 years old, I got my first Battery Saver Message (BSM). My FFH had been sitting for 3 weeks without being driven, so I was not too terribly surprised. But then after driving my FFH once again on a fairly regular basis, with no more than 4 days between drivings, I saw my second BSM occur upon me switching the car on recently.

 

So I took my FFH to the dealership to get my 12V battery replaced, and informed the SA I was not leaving without having a new battery installed. So they ran the standard quick cranking amps test, and it passed with such flying colors that my SA stated that he seriously doubted it would fail the load test, which he referred to as the "floor test". It seemed to only take them about 15-30 minutes to run the floor test, but the SA came back and said it failed the floor test, so I was covered under warranty.

 

So this Forum struck not once for me but 3 times, once for informing me how insidious the various problems can be that can result from having a 12V battery in a FFH going on the fritz, twice for informing that the BSMs can very well indicate a 12V battery in the FFH is going on the fritz, and thrice for informing there is such a thing as a more comprehensive load test and giving me the wherewithal to push them to run it, resulting in me getting a free battery before any other crazy low-12V_system symptoms started happening.

 

And now I have a new 3-year, unlimited mileage battery too. The SA said the original battery had a 3-year warranty also, but only 36K miles on the original battery warranty, the B2B warranty coverage.

 

Yay for the Forum...long live the Forum!

Edited February 19, 2016 by Hybrider

[rvlasek]

What are my options for "Battery Saver message" problem. Have had two batteries replaced already in three years of ownership. Latest visit to dealership, service associate says battery checks good, they said they ran intensive test on battery. They told me to do not use my usb port with thumb drive for music and see how it does, This does not work still getting message every time I shut off vehicle. The last time battery was replaced solved problem for about 14 months each time. Must be something in the charging system software or possibly poor battery choice for this vehicle. ANYONE have this problem solved??? Ford seems to have no fix for this. I'm up to date on all TSB's on vehicle. At a loss on this. Car runs great and great mpg, but this issue is annoying and needs a fix...

Edited April 23, 2016 by rvlasek

[murphy]

Do you drive at least 25 contiguous miles every day? If not, the battery will slowly run down. There is a lot of permanent load from all of the computers. When I am not going to use the car for a few days I hook up a battery charger that has a maintain mode. The battery is too small, IMHO, for the load it is required to serve. I replaced mine with a much bigger AGM battery but that is a major job which requires removing the battery tray and cutting the end off of it to make room for the longer battery. It also runs down but an AGM battery maintains a much higher voltage as it discharges. They also cost a lot more than the OEM battery.

[LadyDi]

This is an update... After my car dying and leaving me stranded because of the battery saver problem I took the car into the dealership(Greenway Ford in Orlando) once again and I think this time they have solved the problem. Talking to the service manager they were working with Ford engineers and essentially they indicated that the hybrid battery was not talking to the regular battery therefore the regular battery was not telling the hybrid battery " hey, I'm getting low charge me". They applied a fix to it and I will try to type in what they applied off the receipt.

 

• Performed PPT, R&I Rear video camera, perform SSM 44624
• Reprogram BCM(Body Control Module) to latest software level "MTBCM"
• Camera - Rear View Parking - R & I

I have to say, I have had the car sitting in the garage for almost 2 weeks without starting because I was out of town and I came back and the car started with no problem. In the past in 3 days I already had the Battery saver message. The car was repaired on 2/17/16 and still no problems. Still crossing my fingers because this has been such a major ordeal. Hope this helps someone.

[mwr]

Do you drive at least 25 contiguous miles every day? If not, the battery will slowly run down.

I don't drive 25 contiguous miles every day, and recently the car sat for six days. Never had a problem starting.

[Hybrider]

It all depends on the age and condition of the battery how much abuse it can take and still perform normally.