Battery saver message

[Ric]

The car goes out a lot. A couple of 60 mile round trips a week and many shorter 4-5 miles. We live 4 miles from town and the car goes in almost every day for something.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Ric

[corncobs]

...many shorter 4-5 miles.

Not that's right in the first place but that statement is part of the problem.

 

I drive almost 80 miles round trip daily and almost never short trips. Well last week I had a few things to care of and had 4 - 5 short trips and after the last one got a BS message immediately after turning off the car.

[larryh]

Please refresh me as to why YOU started worrying about your battery in the first place.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the 12 V battery. I am only posting my observations in the hopes that they may provide some insight into how the car maintains the 12 V battery. My typical week consists of a 60 mile round trip plus 15 minute commutes one-way to and from work. Since I have the Fusion Energi, the car also has the opportunity to charge the 12 V battery overnight while charging the HVB. Prior to applying the TSB, the SOC of the 12 V battery averaged 69% over two months. I check the SOC each morning. It ranged from 55% to 84%. I think it needs to get below 50% for battery saver mode. So even with the opportunity to charge each night, the car was unable to maintain full charge to the 12 V battery.

 

Now after applying the TSB, the car is much more aggressive in charging the HVB. It has spent many hours drawing power from my 240 V charger to charge the 12 V battery, at least 24 hours, and has only managed to get the SOC up to 91% (I'm not sure that the SOC measurement is accurate. I think the typical accuracy of most battery management systems in measuring SOC is about 5% to 10%). I will have to see in the coming weeks how effective the new programming will be in maintaining the 12 V battery. If the Fusion Energi has so much difficulty in maintaining 100% SOC, the Fusion Hybrid will have a much more difficult time since there is no opportunity to charge the Hybrid overnight by plugging the car into a 240 V charger. Since I don't experience the battery saver message, it would be informative to compare my observations with a Hybrid that does experience the problem.

Edited June 8, 2014 by larryh

[larryh]

When I look at the 60 mile commutes, the SOC of the 12 V battery generally increases by 2-3%. For the 15 minute commutes to and from work, it increases by 1-2%. Overnight and during the day the SOC decreases by at least 2-3%, probably more. So once the charge on the 12 V battery starts getting low, I don't see how the car can keep up if the only opportunity to charge is when the car is on while driving to and from work or during the 60 mile commutes. The only way my car keeps up is by charging the 12 V battery when it is plugged in overnight to charge the HVB. The question is should the car be able to keep up to maintain 100% SOC, and if so, why isn't it doing so?

Edited June 8, 2014 by larryh

[Easy Rider]

I drive almost 80 miles round trip daily and almost never short trips. Well last week I had a few things to care of and had 4 - 5 short trips and after the last one got a BS message immediately after turning off the car.

 

Listen you guys.......IF your battery is healthy AND the charging system is working right, 4-5 short trips over a day or two WILL NOT deplete your battery to the point of a warning.

Or at least it should not, especially if it is driven more than 50 miles every other day of the week.

 

What you two are describing is a problem with the EQUIPMENT, most likely the battery itself.

 

NOW.....there are some others in this thread who leave their cars parked for maybe 4 days, and then drive it on a couple of 4 mile errands.......and then let it sit for another 4 days.....etc.

For owners with that kind of a usage pattern, you REALLY need to consider a battery tender.....and maybe a bigger battery, if it will fit.

That seems to be a problem common to a LOT of hybrids; Toyota and Volt I have specifically seen a lot of complaints about in their respective forums.

 

Apparently "nobody" took a minimum usege owner into consideration when they decided on battery size and charging capacity.

Pretty much nothing is perfect for everybody and those with an "unusual" usage pattern need to step up and take care of their unique situation themselves.

 

The others who are having a problem.......need to get that problem FIXED, just like any other failure.

[Easy Rider]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the 12 V battery.

You keep saying that and I keep trying to tell you, based on 45 years as an Electronics Engineering Technician, that all of the measurements you are reporting DOES absolutely indicate that there is a problem developing with your battery. It is NOT supposed to be left with a SOC below something like 85% after extended driving or charging........EVER......because that greatly decreases battery life.

 

I quit. Good luck.

[Easy Rider]

When I look at the 60 mile commutes, the SOC of the 12 V battery generally increases by 2-3%.

The question is should the car be able to keep up to maintain 100% SOC, and if so, why isn't it doing so?

Because something is BROKEN.

 

IF 14.5 volts is being applied to the battery over an hour's time and the SOC only increases 3%, then the battery is worn out and is not accepting a charge properly.

That usually happens because the internal resistance has gone up and it makes it LOOK to the charging system like it is fully charged when it is not.

 

Over an hour drive or a couple of hours of charging, the SOC should increase 10-15%.....NOT 2-3.

 

I give up.

[larryh]

It would be nice to know how they are determining the 12 V battery SOC and how accurate it is. I suspect they keep track of the amount of current flowing into and out of the battery. Obviously, the car tracks the 12 V battery current and voltage, or I wouldn't be reporting it. It also tracks the 12 V battery estimated temperature, age, and type. Finally, it has several counts that it maintains: Cumulative Battery Charge When Ignition Is On, Cumulative Discharge From Battery When Engine Is Off, Cumulative Discharge From Battery When Engine Is On, and Cumulative Discharge From Battery in Sleep Mode.

 

The following link provides some details about the BMS for the Ford F150, which is probably similar to the Ford Fusion Hybrid BMS: http://www.f150forum.com/f38/battery-management-system-reset-109656/.

 

The post talks about the BMS using a Hall Effect Sensor near the negative battery terminal, which implies that the BMS is measuring current flow. It also refers to SOC drain timers and load shed. I assume load shed refers to shutting down non-essential functions to conserve 12 V battery charge when SOC is low, i.e. battery saver mode. The BMS SOC can be reset to a default of 85% (FORScan offers that option) along with the SOC drain timers. This stops load shedding, and probably battery saver mode (at least until the car learns the actual SOC). It takes approximately 8 hours for the BCM to learn the correct battery SOC, when the car is left undisturbed.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2014 by larryh

[hybridbear]

The car has been steadily increasing the 12V SOC over the last few days. Perhaps it is because we've been using the car a lot more the past two weeks. It is now up to 82%. I am looking at purchasing a battery tender in the next few weeks and will continue to monitor its SOC.

[larryh]

Last week, the SOC of the 12 V battery ranged from 84% to 93% Prior to applying TSB 14-0020, the SOC ranged from 55% to 84%. The car has spent a significant amount of time charging the 12 V battery when plugged into the 240 V charger.

 

When I look at a 15 minute commute home three weeks ago prior to applying the TSB, the amount of current supplied to the battery was 0.53 Ah. Today, the car supplied 1.08 Ah, or 2.04 times as much. So the battery appears to be accepting charge faster than before. My guess is that all that charging has made the 12 V battery more active.

 

The maximum SOC I have observed so far is 93%. But if I look at the SOC a little later, it quickly drops back to 90% and stays there. The SOC generally falls about 2-3% during the nine hours I park at work. But today, for some reason, the charge was 91% when I parked at work and was only 67% nine hours later when I left. I don't know what happened to the 24% SOC. This was the first time I have observed such a large drop. The trip home only charged it back to 70%. I'll have to see how much additional charging occurs tonight when it charges the HVB and if the car is able to keep up with the amount of charge that was consumed. Hopefully it doesn't use that much charge very often.

Edited June 16, 2014 by larryh

[larryh]

The reason for the 24% drop in SOC yesterday appears that the BCM does not always compute SOC accurately. This morning, when I started to work the SOC was 73% and was still 73% when I arrived. When I left work for home, the SOC had jumped to 91% and rose to 93% by the time I arrived home. I don't think the 12 V battery charges itself. The BCM must not have computed SOC accurately.

Edited June 17, 2014 by larryh

[expresspotato]

The reason for the 24% drop in SOC yesterday appears that the BCM does not always compute SOC accurately. This morning, when I started to work the SOC was 73% and was still 73% when I arrived. When I left work for home, the SOC had jumped to 91% and rose to 93% by the time I arrived home. I don't think the 12 V battery charges itself. The BCM must not have computed SOC accurately.

You're right but it depends if there is load on it... Its kind of hard to measure SOC with load as the voltage drops immediately.

 

Deal extreme has these nice 4.5W solar panels, put one in the rear window and my voltage is always around 12.6-12.73 (aka 100%), with just the trunk light on. I'm sure the car uses about 0.5-2A on its own, for the remote entry, ECU, accessory relays, etc...

 

Its wired directly to the battery and the wire is hidden, went though the side panel in the drunk and to the right of the back pillar. Originally went though the 12v outlet in the rear, but this is a way cleaner setup and the car still turns off the ports after some time even if the SOC is high.

 

http://www.dx.com/p/car-sunshade-board-solar-power-panel-auto-car-battery-charger-with-suction-cups-82013

[larryh]

You're right but it depends if there is load on it... Its kind of hard to measure SOC with load as the voltage drops immediately.

 

 

The BCM tracks the current flow into and out of the 12 V battery. The SOC should be maintained regardless of the load on the battery.

 

When there is no load on the battery, it recalculates SOC. The car must be left undisturbed for 8 hours. The jump from 91% to 67% the first day, and the jump from 73% to 91% the next day occurred while the car was left undisturbed for 9 hours at work. The car does not seem to recalculate SOC consistently--there can be significant error.

Edited June 23, 2014 by larryh

[Easy Rider]

You're right but it depends if there is load on it... Its kind of hard to measure SOC with load as the voltage drops immediately.

 

It is impossible to accurately determine SOC with an UNKNOWN load but measuring the voltage with a KNOWN load

is exactly how you test the health of a battery.......and indirectly the SOC if it's not fully charged.

[expresspotato]

Ah my mistake.

 

Either way the solar panel is keeping my battery happy and full

[Barsoom]

Interesting news. I will stay tuned.

 

For me, I finally had my original battery replaced about a month ago. As expected, I have not had a return of the BS message since then. I attribute that to the new battery and proof that the old battery was not keeping a charge, probably the last of the defective 4Q2012 lot.

 

Now, I'm waiting for my short hops to slowly drain the battery again to the point where the BS message comes back. It's been 4 weeks so far. On the one hand, I had hopes that the fresh battery would keep the charge above the BS message threshold. On the other hand, I didn't have confidence that the battery alone was the solution; I always felt that there was some other slow drain contributing to the problem. Time would tell.

 

So I'm watching and waiting...

 

My battery saver message is back.

 

I used my car on Thursday, July 3, and then it sat unused over the holiday. On Monday when I got to work, the message came back.

 

There is something else that is drawing down the battery. Back to Ford...

[murphy]

Never mind. Wrong forum.

Edited July 8, 2014 by murphy

[Easy Rider]

 

 

There is something else that is drawing down the battery. Back to Ford...

 

Maybe but probably NOT.

 

I have been doing some testing on my own.

It appears that all of the computer electronics draws a SUBSTANTIAL load from the 12 V battery if the car is not actually ON.

When you turn the car off, all the computers stay on for a while, as well as the headlights (if on AUTO) and the courtesy lights.

That means that your battery is down a bit every time you park it because the "normal" drain continues after the charging stops.

 

THEN......if you open one of the doors, everything comes back to life in anticipation of the car actually starting. Another significant drain on the battery.

 

I have found that attaching a battery tender to get it fully charged and then disconnecting the charger and watching the voltage over several days, shows that IF you don't touch it (open anything) it loses only a tiny bit of charge each day; on the order of .02 to .05 volts. If you start at 12.8 fully charged, then it should take about 16 days for it to fall to 12.0 where you would start getting concerned.

 

When I first started this test, however, the initial voltage read about 12.5. Opening the doors dropped it down to around 12.2 but it recovered back all but a tenth.

So......if you start at 12.5 then you have only 10 days before there is a potential problem. Every time you open the doors, or presumably starting it and driving less than 10 minutes, you lose one of those 10 buffer days.

 

I haven't continued the test to it's ultimate conclusion but I can easily see how under "normal" conditions you could park the car in the garage and come back to it 3-4 days later and find the 12 V on the low threshold.......just from a combination of short trips and extended non-use.

 

From reports I've seen on other hybrid forums, this is a common problem with a LOT of makes of hybrids; specifically Toyota's and Volt's.

It seems that they didn't take low usage situations into enough consideration when sizing the 12 V battery.

 

Bottom line: If you have a low usage pattern that is likely to persist, it appears that you have only 2 choices:

Put in a battery with a higher capacity........IF it will fit.

OR Get an automatic battery tender and connect it every 5 days or so.

I guess a 3rd option is to just continue to bitch about it........but that doesn't really accomplish anything useful.

[larryh]

It has now been a month since TSB 14-0020 was applied. This past week, the SOC of the 12 V battery, as reported by the BCM, has been between 89 and 91% when I check in the morning. After resting for about three hours, I measure the voltage to be around 12.85 V. Prior to the TSB, the SOC averaged around 70% and the resting voltage was more like 12.55 V. So the TSB definitely changed how the battery is charged and maintained, and probably also strengthened the battery. Over the month, the charging voltage has gradually reduced from 14.7 V to about 14.3 V now. The charging algorithm and battery are both adapting--I am not sure what is happening. Hopefully it is for the better.

 

I'm not sure how this TSB would apply to the Fusion Hybrid though. I have the Fusion Energi, so when I leave the car plugged into the charger, the car can charge the 12 V battery anytime it wants and it seems to want to do it a lot this past month.

Edited July 9, 2014 by larryh

[Barsoom]

I'm bringing my car back to the dealer on Friday. I suspect that I have a problem with the keypad on the driver's door. I saw it blinking non-stop one evening in my garage. I had to open the door and close it again for the keypad to stop blinking. Doing that popped open the trunk, which has also happened before, so really think that there is something wrong with the external keypad that could also be draining the battery.

 

When the BS messages first came back last week, I measured the voltage with a multi-meter with the car turned off. The reading was 11.88 volts. This was in the new replaced battery.

[murphy]

At that voltage it is discharged.

Download this pdf file.

 

www.mmbalmainauto.com.au/PDF/State_of_charge_12_volt_batteries.pdf

[Barsoom]

I brought the car back to my dealer last week to look at this again, since the message came back with the new battery. Spoke to the shop foreman this time. The foreman said they checked my records and a battery controller reset was not done after swapping out the battery. I recall them saying at the time that they did reset something.

 

This time, they wrote in the invoice: BCE Module reprogram/configure.

 

I also told them about the the keyless entry pad waking up at night and looping in a flashing cycle ending in my trunk popping open. I wondered whether something in the keypad was draining the battery. I posted the details in the relevant thread elsewhere in this forum. They confirmed a panel problem and ordered a new one. I'm having that installed next Friday. I'll update when I determine if it makes the BS message go away.

 

I also added a solar battery maintainer suction cupped to the rear window to keep the battery topped off. At least I hope it compensates for the "always on" nature of the car's computers.

 

If anyone is keeping score, on my 2013 FFH built on 6-Feb-2013 so far I have replaced:

 

Missing cargo net mushroom caps on car delivery

Wrong shifter knob installed

Broken front passenger visor

Missing space washers in wheels

Reprogrammed global one-touch windows

12V battery

Reprogrammed fuel module

Reprogramed battery control module

Master reset on learned driver tables

Keyless entry pad next week

Air intake with resonator

[GrySql]

My FFH was parked for 10 days while we were on a vacation, it started right up tonight, no problem.

It has the original 2012 battery but the car had the latest BS TSB done to it in 2013.

 

[Barsoom]

My service agent at the time (I don't ask for him anymore) refused to do the BS TSB because it was amended to say "cold weather," and we don't get that kind of cold weather in the San Francisco bay area.

[GrySql]

My service agent at the time (I don't ask for him anymore) refused to do the BS TSB because it was amended to say "cold weather," and we don't get that kind of cold weather in the San Francisco bay area.

I'm in So. Cal. and my SA didn't quibble about doing the BS TSB. Some Dealers waste money doing other things instead of what makes the most sense.