New discovery!

[acdii]

Today I had tried a different tact while driving. After putting the complete grill covers on over the weekend and road testing, I found the only improvement was the car warmed up quicker and stayed warm. It made ZERO impact in MPG.

 

So this morning I thought, what if I take the recharge load off the engine, so I got the battery up to 75% charge, since its 55MPH right out of my driveway for at least 20 miles, I refrained from using any EV. Once it got to 75% I started to see the instant MPG climb up to 30 then 35 and finally over 40, at which point the pack was around 80% charge and no longer being charged by the ICE. When I was able to keep the speedup over 60 and stay out of EV, I was able to keep the MPG over 40. Unfortunately traffic held me back and I wound up using EV thought I tried not to. End results was a respectable 38 MPG.

 

My trip home however, I was able to drive at 60+ MPH keeping it 100% ICE and saw spikes over 50 MPG for the first time ever at that speed. End results, 44 MPG on the dash, 41.1 on the Scanguage. This is how I expected the car to react when I first got it.

 

So what does this all mean?

 

Battery pack has too high of a resistance so it take more energy to recharge? Makes sense, if you ever ran a gas generator and put a load on it, you know it takes more fuel to keep it running.

 

Could it be a fault in the charging circuit?

 

In any case I sent this info to my dealers service manager to see if this can help.

 

I doubt the grill covers would help this much, especially considering it made no difference when driven the P&G way.

 

I posted pics under the happy MPG thread.

[lolder]

Try to keep it out of EV above 40 mph.

[acdii]

That goes 100% against what the Ford engineer said! Guess they dont even know, and they designed it!

[fusionTX]

So how do you keep out of EV when it's more efficient not to be?

I've read in other forums that EV should only be used at lower speeds.

Maybe Ford should make the EV threshold variable and user settable. Probably not difficult for them to do.

Let the driver set it anywhere between 40 and 62.

[acdii]

Thats what I was thinking, wishing there was a way to turn EV off above 50 MPH. Made a huge difference when the pack was fully charged, for a good stretch it was between 40 and 55 MPG instant. I have to keep it over 60 to be able to sustain it though.

[gl419]

acdii, I've been following your problem on this forum as well as BlueOval. I have an FFH on order and have been following closely various threads with the mileage problem. With your latest digging (on your own), sure looks like you found the problem. Did I read is correctly that you wwere getting 40+ to 50 MPG using ICE? That's amazing.

 

Thanks for all of you input and tenacity to keep looking for the problem. I'm anxious to see if anybody will listen and finally fix the problems people are having.

[FusionDiffusion]

Maybe it's a cell balancing issue. Since it's a new car I would try to get the battery charged up as much as possible and then try to run it down in EV as much as possible for a few cycles. Can you initiate a cell rebalancing cycle yourself?

 

It could also be a temperature issue in your case. Cold batteries are harder (more inefficient) to charge. Continuous charging would help warm up the batteries if they were cold.

 

Covering the grille and letting the ICE run for 20 minutes continuously also probably helped you get up to operating temp there.

[acdii]

acdii, I've been following your problem on this forum as well as BlueOval. I have an FFH on order and have been following closely various threads with the mileage problem. With your latest digging (on your own), sure looks like you found the problem. Did I read is correctly that you wwere getting 40+ to 50 MPG using ICE? That's amazing.

 

Thanks for all of you input and tenacity to keep looking for the problem. I'm anxious to see if anybody will listen and finally fix the problems people are having.

Yes, using the Scan Gauge I can see real time FE, and there were periods where it was hitting 50+, and during most of the drive it hovered between 40 and 44 MPG. It was a massive improvement over what I was getting and what the service manager was getting with the road test trickery.

 

I dont remember if I mentioned this, but I wrote a note to my dealer to pass along to the SM on what I found.

 

 

 

Maybe it's a cell balancing issue. Since it's a new car I would try to get the battery charged up as much as possible and then try to run it down in EV as much as possible for a few cycles. Can you initiate a cell rebalancing cycle yourself?

 

It could also be a temperature issue in your case. Cold batteries are harder (more inefficient) to charge. Continuous charging would help warm up the batteries if they were cold.

 

Covering the grille and letting the ICE run for 20 minutes continuously also probably helped you get up to operating temp there.

This is exactly what I am thinking, there are a few cells that are out of balance, or have too high a resistance which is pulling more out of the ICE when in recharge cycle. I dont know if there is a way to initiate a conditioning cycle, but it could help. However if there is a cell or few that have too high resistance, a conditioning cycle wont correct it.

[gemdc]

Just coincidence but I did 2 test runs yesterday. I have a 15 mile stretch of I-40 east of OKC where there are a number of ups and downs. I reset Trip 1 when I hit the entrance ramp and set the eco-cruise on 62 so that it would cycle the EV mode on all the downhills. It did a number of EV mode stretches and maintained about 50% on the battery charge pretty consistently. As I hit the exit coming back Trip 1 read 30 miles at 41.7 mpg.

 

Then I did a U and reset Trip 1 and set the cruise on 68 both directions. This time the battery charge went above 80% almost all the time and instant mpg went above 40 most of the time. As I hit the same exit coming back Trip 1 read 30 miles at 40.7 mpg.

 

I think this confirms acdii's case (and others) that you don't see any advantage using EV at cruising speed. Too much mechanical / electrical losses in the charge / discharge cycles. I think my 1 mpg loss at 68 versus 62 is easily accounted for by the difference in wind drag at the extra 6 mph.

 

I know the actual mpg will be about 1.5 mpg lower than my trip computer but still decent mpg for my 10/30/12 vehicle. I think it is getting better at 2800 miles than ever before. May even make an actual 40 mpg tank this time around.

 

I had the temp gauge up on Myview and it hit right in the middle of the marks within the first 4 miles on the first leg and stayed there. Outside temp was 60 degrees at the time of these drives.

Edited March 5, 2013 by gemdc

[jeff_h]

Just coincidence but I did 2 test runs yesterday. I have a 15 mile stretch of I-40 east of OKC where there are a number of ups and downs. I reset Trip 1 when I hit the entrance ramp and set the eco-cruise on 62 so that it would cycle the EV mode on all the downhills. It did a number of EV mode stretches and maintained about 50% on the battery charge pretty consistently. As I hit the exit coming back Trip 1 read 30 miles at 41.7 mpg.

 

Then I did a U and reset Trip 1 and set the cruise on 68 both directions. This time the battery charge went above 80% almost all the time and instant mpg went above 40 most of the time. As I hit the same exit coming back Trip 1 read 30 miles at 40.7 mpg.

 

I think this confirms acdii's case (and others) that you don't see any advantage using EV at cruising speed. Too much mechanical / electrical losses in the charge / discharge cycles. I think my 1 mpg loss at 68 versus 62 is easily accounted for by the difference in wind drag at the extra 6 mph.

 

I did a similar test today, my results were slightly opposite but with just one test under mostly-similar (but not exactly the same) conditions, of course this is to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

I have taken many trip summary pics from the daily commute (photobucket link is below, I've put many on there but still a few on my phone I think), and like I noted in another thread, have been setting the cruise at the poke-along 62 and only juiced it up when a pocket of traffic would come along and I'd then mix in exactly with the flow... otherwise I'd let them go ahead and pass by, as I wanted to use EV as much as possible.

 

But then after reading the post from acdii I said OK let's go just a little faster to avoid going back and forth into EV, thinking that increasing to 65 would be beyond EV but not kill the MPG too much, and maybe increase it if his theory is correct. Note - my daily commute is 4 miles to the interstate, then about 50 miles on the interstate where the speed can sometimes be constant but can often jam up, and then about 6 miles from the beltway to my office.

 

The morning temps were not bad, in the 30s, and during past trips with similar traffic and temps the morning commute MPG is normally 45-47... this morning with the increased setting it was 43.1 which is about 8% lower so not bad.

 

The afternoon temp was 54 and the last time I had this I got GREAT MPG, and had a past PM commute with MPG of 55.9 which included a side trip of a few extra miles to the bank drive-thru. Today had the same temp, traffic, and same side trip at the bank drive-thru... this afternoon's commute was 47.9 MPG which is about 15% less. Of course there are plenty who would love to have their 'worse' MPG as 47.9, and I even took off right away from stop lights rather than EV-ing to 10mph before lightly kicking it in to accelerate.

 

So I'll continue to take it easy and hope to increase the MPG some more (today's tank fillup was 47, same as last tank), and it's good to see that stepping on the gas a little bit more won't nose-dive things.

 

http://s1283.beta.photobucket.com/user/jeff_h_fusion/library/

[acdii]

Ahh if you used EV to do it, then you will be lower. The trick I used is to feather the throttle at speed, not maintain a steady speed but to stay within a range while maximizing the instant MPG. I think that is why yours showed lower. Its a trick I developed in the 2010 that is starting to work on the 13, but requires more practice and less traffic. It can be done between 55 and 65. Not very easy to explain, you have to find the EV threshold and keep the ICE just a hair above it. It takes practice and a very light touch.

 

Today with the snow and people too scared to drive it was much more difficult to keep out of EV so I wound up not getting anything better then 32 MPG, but man does that car handle snow well!

[expresspotato]

Today with the snow and people too scared to drive it was much more difficult to keep out of EV so I wound up not getting anything better then 32 MPG, but man does that car handle snow well!

 

Really? I found the car to handle quite poor in the snow. A combination of the revless EV and the low rolling resistance tires didn't make winter in Canada a walk in the park by any means.

[Kaleido]

I think acdii has different tires than the low rollers we have, so it's better in the snow.

[Toz]

Really? I found the car to handle quite poor in the snow. A combination of the revless EV and the low rolling resistance tires didn't make winter in Canada a walk in the park by any means.

Really? Canada winter with low rolling resistance tires? Brave person! I thought that it said in the owners manual that low rolling resistance tires were only good to about 40F. Or was that just summer tread tires?

[acdii]

Goodyear LS2 tires have very good snow traction compared to the Michelins.

[gemdc]

jeff_h - looked at your pics. You definitely got a good one.

[lolder]

Someone needs to do a test at 61 mph where the EV will cycle and again at 63 mph where it wont over the same road with the same SOC, temperature and wind. Speed costs 0.6 mpg per 1.0 mph speed increase, temperature costs 0.2 mpg per 1.0 º F. lower temperature, wind costs 0.3 mpg for every 1.0 mph. headwind. Trips in different directions on the same day might easily be 10-15 mpg different with these factors. The 2010 - 12 FFH's do not routinely equalize their HVB cells. You will know when they do as EV is completely inhibited for 15-30 minutes. Mine has done 3 or 4 times in 52,000 miles. If your above maximum EV speed, you will only notice it by the SOC going higher than normal max ( without braking or downhill ) , the instantaneous mileage deteriorating until the SOC spends ~ 15 minutes at max. It then discharges to normal and you get fantastic mileage during that period. I went 4 miles in EV at 40 mph. the last time mine did it. If you go into reverse during this time, the equalization event will cancel and if it wasn't complete, it may start again soon. It's all automatic, nothing can go wwwwrrrroooonnnngggg.

Edited March 6, 2013 by lolder

[acdii]

Well Discovery #2. On my trip in I was able to hold it at 55 on just the ICE, used extremely little EV. The battery charge remained above 60% the entire trip, for the most part was above 75%. Even in the city I stayed out of EV as much as possible, and only used EV the last mile or so where its 25 MPH. End result below.

 

Why bother having a Hybrid if it can get 38 on just ICE?

 

[acdii]

In contrast, here is a pic of my 2010 on the same roads in 20* weather.

 

[jeff_h]

I like the EV assisting and taking over in places... in the below there was slow traffic so instead of the ICE being used to inch up a couple long hills at 10mph (and probably at 10mpg), the EV did it all, matching what lolder said about the EV being the most efficient at those low speeds. So I don't mind the traffic jams as much, they still suck but at least the MPG benefits (as long as the traffic doesn't bog down long enough to cause the ICE to cycle on and off to recharge the HVB, that is).

 

 

[acdii]

Ah to have a perfectly working car..........:) Yours is further proof that they can work as advertised. In mine, if the Hybrid was removed from it and just the ICE and CVT, 38 MPG is not bad at all. Might be even better when you remove the weight of the batteries and other Hybrid components.

[lmp180psu]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="acdii" data-cid="44715" data-time="1362580222"><p>

In contrast, here is a pic of my 2010 on the same roads in 20* weather. <br />

<br />

<span rel='lightbox'><img src='https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/625410_515307071844765_359876525_n.jpg' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' /></span></p></blockquote>

 

So did you get 44.3 or 35.5 on that same trip in the 2010? Hard to tell since you have the 2 gauges shown in the pic. BTW, I agree with you that I think the 13 is not a very good highway car. I have been driving anywhere from 60-65 on the highway mostly since i got the car, and if not in EV mode, the instant mpg on ICE sort of stink. With a lower EV battery charge, the instant mpg at 60 even on flat surfaces can show 30 or below which i think is very inefficient. I tried to stay in ICE longer on the highway to test your theory and I see it helps with the SOC of the battery, but still trying to get the hang of getting good mpg while using the ICE at 60+. Seems like the mpg should be better on the ICE at 60-65 than it is. It is sort of painful to drive at 60 just to let it cycle in and out of EV mode to get better mpg (maybe upper 30s on highway, i need to actually reset the trip meter at the beginning of my highway commute one of these days) when in my 05 TL, i could get 31-33 mpg doing 70 easily. I am close to 40 now with almost 4000 miles but i have about half (if not a little more than half) EV miles.

[acdii]

The 35.5 is lifetime since last reset, the scanguage is current Trip MPG. When spring rolls around I reset the lifetime average. So far from 2 winters and one summer I see roughly 36 in winter and 43 summer, when I drive to maximize. For the most part I just drive, going with the flow, and can still see upper 30's when its warmer out, but I never see less than 34 in it even when its below 0*, unless its a short trip with a cold engine. Cant say the same for the 13.

 

It's really puzzling why the car just gets such poor fuel economy, especially when everything lines up on it. Everything seems to be working OK, but it just does not want to be fuel efficient.

[hermans]

If you are still fouling plugs, everything is not OK.

[acdii]

If you are still fouling plugs, everything is not OK.

Jury is still out on that one, have another 1000 miles to go before these have 4500 miles on them. The only difference is the original have a lot more interstate miles on them.