2013 Fusion

[CometFlash]

But after seeing all the info on the new C-Max Hybrid, and most especially the C-Max Energi Plug-In Hybrid Electric; it's going to be almost impossible to seat myself in a current-gen FFH or MKZH now. Makes a lot more economical sense for me to hang on to my paid-off fully-loaded Platinum F-150 until Sept/Oct of 2012 when all these new vehicles will be hitting (including the new Fusion by that point as well). The C-Max doesn't wow me from the exterior, but the PHEV tech is very cool and could save a ton of money on fuel costs. I'll have to compare it to the new FFH when they introduce it, most likely at next years NAIAS, and make the best decision for me based on looks, comfort and of course pick the best fuel-$aving$ vehicle for myself as well.

 

Very cool stuff, go check it out if you haven't already! :camera:

[rfruth]

The C-Max does look promising but its a Focus http://www.insideline.com/ford/c-max-hybrid/2013/2013-ford-c-max-hybrid-2011-detroit-auto-show.html

& when its rolled out you may be able to pick up a FFH for a song (unless gas prices stay high)

[AptosDriver]

But after seeing all the info on the new C-Max Hybrid, and most especially the C-Max Energi Plug-In Hybrid Electric; it's going to be almost impossible to seat myself in a current-gen FFH or MKZH now.

Sounds to me like the C-Max hybrid is Ford's answer to the Prius. I already don't want a Prius -- especially after penciling out the best-case cost of a Prius V (the only model I would consider) against similarly equipped FFHs and Camry hybrids. Amazingly, the out-the-door price (in California) of the Prius V turns out to be $1,585 more than the Camry and "only" about $1,840 less than the more sophisticated and more powerful FFH. :blink: The only drawback of the latter two cars compared to the Prius is their relatively small trunks. (I might take our primary suitcases -- carry-on bags -- with me to the dealerships when I finally get serious about buying just to gauge the cars' respective trunk capacities.) Anyway, unless what you really want is a non-Toyota, Prius-like car, if I were you, I wouldn't wait until 2012 to unload my gas-guzzling F150. :redcard:

[CometFlash]

It was exciting to see all the new stuff late last night. But now I'm awake, not half-asleep at 1am. I have to say, no matter how I look at it, the C-Max just doesn't do anything for me in terms of interest or excitment to own. I mean, my feelings on the tech haven't changed, it's really cool stuff. But the vehicle itself just does nothing for me, it's way too bland and rather reminds of of like a tiny minivan in a way. Like AptosDriver said, almost like a spartan prius, which doesn't interest me at all.

 

It may not be brand-new anymore, but the FFH and MKZH are still much more interesting to look at, at least there's some excitement there visually (perhaps why I'm leaning towards Red Candy now? Hehe!). So you have the bland C-Max Energi, cool $aving$ tech but very boring otherwise. And the Focus EV, which has no gas engine at all, which I don't like (never want to risk being stranded or want to go somewhere I can't because it's all EV and then it's dead).

 

So after my intial excitement at the new stuff, it still looks like I'm headed towards an MKZH. Love the looks, the tech, the fuel $aving$, etc etc. Just wish it had MyFord Touch, but it isn't a deal breaker. One thing I really liked about the newer electric vehicles they just showed is how they are developing the APP where you can remote start your car from anywhere, among other stuff. I'd love to be able to start my vehicle and warm it up before leaving work. But I park in a parking garage which is rather far from my store inside the mall. My remote start won't even reach my vehicle until I'm within several hundred feet of it. That would be a nice comfort feature, but again, isn't a deal breaker though it's something I'd love to have.

 

So it looks like I'm back to deciding: White Platinum or Red Candy MKZH? :runaway:

[wwoody723]

Looking around the corner for the next best thing causes a stiff neck but doesn't get you a new car.

[AptosDriver]

So after my intial excitement at the new stuff, it still looks like I'm headed towards an MKZH. Love the looks, the tech, the fuel $aving$, etc etc.

So it looks like I'm back to deciding: White Platinum or Red Candy MKZH? :runaway:

Why an MKZH, white platinum, red candy or otherwise, when you can get a fully loaded FFH -- virtually the same vehicle minus air-conditioned seats and some fancier trim -- for a lot less. For example, I've calculated (with a spreadsheet) that here in California where the sales tax is 9%, the best-scenario¹ out-the-door cost for a fully loaded FFH is more than $6,800 less :eek5: than a similarly equipped MKZH (with "Rapid Spec 202A," which gets you a fancy entertainment system plus a sunroof, provided it's not a "fleet" -- rental -- car). I admit that the MKZ's grill is classier than the FFH's and the MKZH has "memory seats" while the FFH doesn't (too bad; we have 'em in our '00 Volvo S70 GLT and I love 'em), but is that stuff really worth the premium you'd be paying to get it? :shift:

 

¹Paying $100 over invoice, the X-Plan discount. I'm betting you don't need to be on the X-Plan to get this price, because there is an $847 "holdback" on the FFH and a $687 holdback on the MKZH. The holdback is what Ford kicks back to the dealerships for each car sold. So $100 over invoice guarantees the dealership a $947 profit on an FFH and a $787 profit on an MKZH. Go in at the end of a month when virtually any dealership is eager to move cars in order to avoid another month's "flooring cost" (the interest they have to pay to their bankers on the loans they've taken out to acquire the cars from Ford/Lincoln) and you'll have the most leverage to get a deal like this.

Edited January 11, 2011 by AptosDriver

[CometFlash]

Like you mentioned, I like the looks of the MKZ. Plus it has things like Adaptive HID's, LED's, an outstanding 14-speaker THX 5.1 Surround Sound System, A/C seats, seats are more comfortable than Fusion seats, driver and passenger powered seats drivers with memory function, acoustic laminated windshield, extra sound deadening ("whisper quiet" and "library-like ambiance" are phrases used), reviews have also mentioned a more refined ride due to different tuning favoring comfort over sportiness, the wood trim in the Executive Package looks really nice and the micro-suede inserts in the bridge of weir leather seats (included with Executive Package) are also really nice to the touch (leather is milled for up to 12 hours to ensure a soft hand). Plus on the looks front, I really don't care for the standard (and only choice) wheels on the FFH, whereas the MKZH gives you a really nice shiny chromed option, among others.

 

So it does have a number of things over the FFH, besides the looks. Combine them all together and it sounds pretty good to me. But I'm not ruling out the FFH just yet. We'll see what happens when I start the shopping process and see what dealers are willing to work with me on (prob start that process sometime in March).

[AptosDriver]

Like you mentioned, I like the looks of the MKZ. Plus it has things like Adaptive HID's, LED's, an outstanding 14-speaker THX 5.1 Surround Sound System, A/C seats, seats are more comfortable than Fusion seats, driver and passenger powered seats drivers with memory function, acoustic laminated windshield, extra sound deadening ("whisper quiet" and "library-like ambiance" are phrases used), reviews have also mentioned a more refined ride due to different tuning favoring comfort over sportiness, the wood trim in the Executive Package looks really nice and the micro-suede inserts in the bridge of weir leather seats (included with Executive Package) are also really nice to the touch (leather is milled for up to 12 hours to ensure a soft hand). Plus on the looks front, I really don't care for the standard (and only choice) wheels on the FFH, whereas the MKZH gives you a really nice shiny chromed option, among others.

 

So it does have a number of things over the FFH, besides the looks. Combine them all together and it sounds pretty good to me. But I'm not ruling out the FFH just yet. We'll see what happens when I start the shopping process and see what dealers are willing to work with me on (prob start that process sometime in March).

Wow! You should be selling the darn things! You've almost sold me. :headspin: I could actually afford to buy one, but it just seems excessive to me to pay much more than $30,000 for a car. Even an almost fully loaded FFH (sunroof, leather, no NAV) would break that bit of self-discipline. :drop: In any case, at this point my main reservation about buying an FFH/MKZH is that I want to see some more practical evidence that these cars are truly reliable. I know all about Consumer Reports' high "predicted reliability" rating. But I want to see if that pans out in actual reliability. I'm hoping that their annual April car issue, due out in March or so, will be more definitive on that score. I won't be ready to move on any kind of car deal until next fall. I'll continue to monitor this forum and news stories about these cars, plus talk to service managers and button any FFH or MKZH drivers I encounter to ask them how they like them between now and then. Good luck to you, and let me know what you decide on and how it works out for you.:camera:

[Buster1]

The C-Max looks too small for me. I don't want a Beetle or Focus...or Prius. I want a sweet sedan that gets great gas mileage! :banghead:

 

Oh wait, I have a FFH! :shift:

[AptosDriver]

The C-Max looks too small for me. I don't want a Beetle or Focus...or Prius. I want a sweet sedan that gets great gas mileage! :banghead:

 

Oh wait, I have a FFH! :shift:

 

After reading about the C-Max and particularly about Ford's next-gen battery technology, I'm wondering whether it would be wiser to wait on a hybrid purchase to see what the near future brings.

[Waldo]

I know all about Consumer Reports' high "predicted reliability" rating. But I want to see if that pans out in actual reliability.

 

When they say "predicted" reliability, they mean they predict that your reliability will be good based on the actual reliability of the ones built in the past. There is nothing else coming, unless you just want a higher volume of data. They don't "predict" reliability unless they have actual reliability data.

[AptosDriver]

When they say "predicted" reliability, they mean they predict that your reliability will be good based on the actual reliability of the ones built in the past. There is nothing else coming, unless you just want a higher volume of data. They don't "predict" reliability unless they have actual reliability data.

I just read some car-news article today that noted that Ford already has 140,000 hybrids on the road. While most of them are probably Escapes at this point, I find that encouraging.

[akirby]

They don't "predict" reliability unless they have actual reliability data.

 

Unless it's a Toyota (prior to last year - not any more).

[AptosDriver]

Unless it's a Toyota (prior to last year - not any more).

My RAV4 is an '07, so I'm safe. :headspin:

[akirby]

My RAV4 is an '07, so I'm safe. :headspin:

 

You missed the point. Up until a couple of years ago, Consumer Reports would predict a new Toyota model to have high reliability even though that particular model had no history based strictly on past performance. They did not afford this luxury to other automakers (except perhaps Honda). They got burned with a couple of Toyota models (forgot which ones) and they declared they would no longer automatically give new Toyotas high predicted reliability until they had proven themselves. In other words - they leveled the playing field. Now we know that Toyota was hiding problems and lying to the NHTSA.

[dogo88]

You missed the point. Up until a couple of years ago, Consumer Reports would predict a new Toyota model to have high reliability even though that particular model had no history based strictly on past performance. They did not afford this luxury to other automakers (except perhaps Honda). They got burned with a couple of Toyota models (forgot which ones) and they declared they would no longer automatically give new Toyotas high predicted reliability until they had proven themselves. In other words - they leveled the playing field. Now we know that Toyota was hiding problems and lying to the NHTSA.

 

Yup, totally agree.

 

Dan

[AptosDriver]

You missed the point. Up until a couple of years ago, Consumer Reports would predict a new Toyota model to have high reliability even though that particular model had no history based strictly on past performance. They did not afford this luxury to other automakers (except perhaps Honda). They got burned with a couple of Toyota models (forgot which ones) and they declared they would no longer automatically give new Toyotas high predicted reliability until they had proven themselves. In other words - they leveled the playing field. Now we know that Toyota was hiding problems and lying to the NHTSA.

OK, I missed your point. Mea culpa. :shrug: And it's a good one. That said, CR's current predicted reliability rating on new models based on real-life experience with used RAV4s, is still "much better than average." In my experience, I will say that Toyota is a bit squirrely when it comes to problems with their cars. Specifically, there was a serious problem with the oil line in '06-08 or '09 RAV4s. They ruptured on enough cars, causing terminal engine failure, that Toyota was moved to offer a replacement part. But instead of issuing a recall, Toyota quietly put out a service bulletin, one a customer had to know about in order to request the necessary fix. I found out about it through another forum I frequent, RAV4 World, where there was a lot of discussion about this and where I was able to download the service bulletin in question and take it to the dealership. Ditto for a problem with the steering that revealed itself in a low "thump" when turning a corner at low speed. And likewise for an issue with the high-end JBL audio system in which the liquid crystal display came up with hieroglyphics and the system failed to turn on (or off, I forget). In all three cases, the dealer performed the repairs under warranty, no questions asked. But I had to find out about the problems myself, and I didn't appreciate that. :nonono:

[akirby]

OK, I missed your point. Mea culpa. :shrug: And it's a good one. That said, CR's current predicted reliability rating on new models based on real-life experience with used RAV4s, is still "much better than average." In my experience, I will say that Toyota is a bit squirrely when it comes to problems with their cars. Specifically, there was a serious problem with the oil line in '06-08 or '09 RAV4s. They ruptured on enough cars, causing terminal engine failure, that Toyota was moved to offer a replacement part. But instead of issuing a recall, Toyota quietly put out a service bulletin, one a customer had to know about in order to request the necessary fix. I found out about it through another forum I frequent, RAV4 World, where there was a lot of discussion about this and where I was able to download the service bulletin in question and take it to the dealership. Ditto for a problem with the steering that revealed itself in a low "thump" when turning a corner at low speed. And likewise for an issue with the high-end JBL audio system in which the liquid crystal display came up with hieroglyphics and the system failed to turn on (or off, I forget). In all three cases, the dealer performed the repairs under warranty, no questions asked. But I had to find out about the problems myself, and I didn't appreciate that. :nonono:

 

 

They're not squirrelly - they're downright dishonest. They hid problems from consumers and from the media, quietly fixing them behind the scenes hoping nobody noticed. They hid serious safety defects like the corolla steering problem that could have caused death and injury. They coerced the NHTSA to reclassify unintended acceleration events so that they didn't show up in the statistics. This is all public knowledge now and the reason they paid $49m in fines last year (and counting). According to a lawsuit by their formal legal counsel they also obstructed justice by failing to disclose all internal documents related to civil lawsuits - hiding evidence.

 

This is not a company I would ever want to do business with regardless of their products.

[AptosDriver]

They're not squirrelly - they're downright dishonest. They hid problems from consumers and from the media, quietly fixing them behind the scenes hoping nobody noticed. They hid serious safety defects like the corolla steering problem that could have caused death and injury. They coerced the NHTSA to reclassify unintended acceleration events so that they didn't show up in the statistics. This is all public knowledge now and the reason they paid $49m in fines last year (and counting). According to a lawsuit by their formal legal counsel they also obstructed justice by failing to disclose all internal documents related to civil lawsuits - hiding evidence.

 

This is not a company I would ever want to do business with regardless of their products.

Well, maybe I won't be doing any new business with them again.

[DaveBerry13]

But after seeing all the info on the new C-Max Hybrid, and most especially the C-Max Energi Plug-In Hybrid Electric; it's going to be almost impossible to seat myself in a current-gen FFH or MKZH now. Makes a lot more economical sense for me to hang on to my paid-off fully-loaded Platinum F-150 until Sept/Oct of 2012 when all these new vehicles will be hitting (including the new Fusion by that point as well). The C-Max doesn't wow me from the exterior, but the PHEV tech is very cool and could save a ton of money on fuel costs. I'll have to compare it to the new FFH when they introduce it, most likely at next years NAIAS, and make the best decision for me based on looks, comfort and of course pick the best fuel-$aving$ vehicle for myself as well.

 

Very cool stuff, go check it out if you haven't already! :camera:

 

Let me be the voice of reason. Do not buy the current gen. Be smart and hang onto the paid off F150. You seem like a young guy who is maybe not making big money so you don't want to shell out big bucks on a car that will lose 60% of the value after the MK names are dropped and the new models arrive. If you must buy a new ride no matter what, wait a few more months for the all new models to debut at the end of the year and make sure you have an 8 month emergency cash fund.

 

Remember what Suze Orman says:

"Sure, it might cost you a few style points in the office parking lot to drive something less flashy, but keep reminding yourself of the lousy "investment" value of your car. You're going to win big by spending less on your car so you have more money to use for other financial goals."

[AptosDriver]

Let me be the voice of reason. Do not buy the current gen. Be smart and hang onto the paid off F150. You seem like a young guy who is maybe not making big money so you don't want to shell out big bucks on a car that will lose 60% of the value after the MK names are dropped and the new models arrive. If you must buy a new ride no matter what, wait a few more months for the all new models to debut at the end of the year and make sure you have an 8 month emergency cash fund.

 

Remember what Suze Orman says:

"Sure, it might cost you a few style points in the office parking lot to drive something less flashy, but keep reminding yourself of the lousy "investment" value of your car. You're going to win big by spending less on your car so you have more money to use for other financial goals."

Most excellent advice! I think I'll wait too.

[CometFlash]

That's actually pretty cool you said that. I actually watch her show every week, as corny as that may sound, because she does give great financial advice and I work very hard to do the right thing with my money. My goal was to save money to help pay down my first home I just bought by increasing my monthly payments (which my very first payment of 30 years is Feb 1st). But who knows, maybe it makes sense to stick with what I have for now and wait and see what's around the corner since my truck is paid off. We'll see. :beerchug:

[rfruth]

I like Suze Orman (spend less than you earn, avoid debt etc) but I would go further & say don't buy and new car ever if money is an issue, get something a couple years old & have the fluids flushed, get new tires if needed sure you won't have the latest safety features / technology / but you'll be close.

 

 

[AptosDriver]

That's actually pretty cool you said that. I actually watch her show every week, as corny as that may sound, because she does give great financial advice and I work very hard to do the right thing with my money. My goal was to save money to help pay down my first home I just bought by increasing my monthly payments (which my very first payment of 30 years is Feb 1st). But who knows, maybe it makes sense to stick with what I have for now and wait and see what's around the corner since my truck is paid off. We'll see. :beerchug:

As long as your truck is running well and you like it, it's always going to be cheaper to maintain it than trade it in for a new vehicle, especially if that requires you to load yourself up with more debt.

 

That's been my philosophy since late 1981 or so, when I bought a new '82 Volvo 240 DL wagon with a 4-speed+overdrive manual transmission. I kept that car for 15 years and drove it 285,000 miles before I finally traded it in on a slightly used '97 Volvo 850 sedan. I did have to do a lot of maintenance on the Volvo wagon, but I budgeted for it and always had the cash in hand when I needed it. It probably cost me something like $1,200 annually to maintain the car. After I paid it off in '86 (when we refinanced our house), that cost -- $100/month -- always penciled out as being way less than the cost of a new car. I never minded the upkeep costs on the Volvo wagon because I liked it. I parted with it in early '98 because by that time I was living and working in "L.A." and commuting on the freeways with a stick shift-car was not fun. I was much more relaxed and happier with the automatic Volvo 850.

 

Anyway, I say keep the truck as long as you like it and it likes you and wait for some of this hybrid "dust" to settle.

[akirby]

If you really want to look at cost, forget monthly payments.

 

Take your current vehicle and figure out what it will cost over the next 5 years including any remaining payments and maintenance items like tires and brakes. You can even put in estimated repair costs but don't overestimate. Add it up and take the total.

 

Now take the cost of the new car plus interest (if applicable). Compare the totals. Let's say the difference is $20K.

 

The other way I like to think about it is would you rather have your current vehicle with $20K sitting in the front seat or the new vehicle? When you think about it in those terms (and when you think about all the things you can do with the extra $20K) then you won't be so quick to jump on that new vehicle.

 

You can do the same thing with a new vehicle and 2-3 yr old vehicle.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy the new one - just understand the true cost.