A FFH in my future?

[AptosDriver]

The price is a few hundred more than the dealer's true invoice price (which is sometimes lower than the "invoice price" reflected on Edmunds).

 

you need to get yourself an x-plan pin. There's many ways to do this:

 

2. Do you have an e-trade account or otherwise buy/sell stock? If you buy one share of stock, you can request an x-plan pin. You can sell the stock at any time. Google it.

 

Thanks for that great information. I've seen a lot of references to the X-plan here, but I didn't understand what it was before. As for the dealer's true invoice, I subscribe to Consumer Reports' online car-pricing service, which I believe is accurate on that score. I've already set up a spread sheet on my laptop that let's me add the invoice cost of whichever trim option I opt for (or is available on the lot) to the base invoice cost -- so I can negotiate more forcefully for the best deal when and if the time comes. (I'll take the laptop to the dealer.) As for getting onto the X-plan, if it's available to shareholder, I can easily buy one share of Ford stock through my Schwab account.:woohoo:

[akirby]

Thanks for that great information. I've seen a lot of references to the X-plan here, but I didn't understand what it was before. As for the dealer's true invoice, I subscribe to Consumer Reports' online car-pricing service, which I believe is accurate on that score. I've already set up a spread sheet on my laptop that let's me add the invoice cost of whichever trim option I opt for (or is available on the lot) to the base invoice cost -- so I can negotiate more forcefully for the best deal when and if the time comes. (I'll take the laptop to the dealer.) As for getting onto the X-plan, if it's available to shareholder, I can easily buy one share of Ford stock through my Schwab account.:woohoo:

 

You have to own the stock for at least 6 months (and the number of shares might have gone up to 100 - not positive though). That changed a little over a year ago.

 

And the allowable doc fee on X plan just went up to $100. It's still the best way to buy. On every plan sale Ford gives the dealer an additional $400-$500 spiff check.

[AptosDriver]

The price is a few hundred more than the dealer's true invoice price (which is sometimes lower than the "invoice price" reflected on Edmunds). Also, the only extra fee permitted under x-plan is the standard $750 destination charge, plus a maximum $75 "doc fee" (at least, this was the rule back in 2009). No ridiculous $500 doc fees or other fees dealers try to add on in the back room. Thus, x-plan can result in pretty significant savings. While I have heard of a few people actually doing better than x-plan this summer when dealers were really hurting, x-plan is probably about as good as you can get. Plus, it's haggle-free. Ford actually requires that the x-plan price be printed on each dealer invoice, which the dealer has to show you if you ask to see it.

 

I did some Googling and found a post on the Ford Flex forum with a link to X-plan pricing. The log-in code is NDUNV. (It's for employees of Notre Dame University.) The X-plan price for a base FFH in our area (I don't know what's involved when options come into play) is $26,429. That is actually $580 higher than Consumer Reports' current "bottom-line" price of $25,849, which takes into account the dealer hold-back. But on the other hand, that's the price and as you say, there is no haggling over it. :baby:

Edited December 23, 2010 by AptosDriver

[mirak]

You have to own the stock for at least 6 months (and the number of shares might have gone up to 100 - not positive though). That changed a little over a year ago.

 

And the allowable doc fee on X plan just went up to $100. It's still the best way to buy. On every plan sale Ford gives the dealer an additional $400-$500 spiff check.

 

Thanks for the corrections.

 

To the OP, if you're seriously interested in the FFH, I'd go ahead and request an x-plan pin from that site (if you can't otherwise get one), because it can take a while.

 

Also, you're most likely to get a dealer to accept x-plan pricing (or, regardless, get the best price), if the dealer doesn't have to spend a lot of time on the transaction. From the dealer's perspective, he doesn't get much profit out of x-plan, so he's not going to want to do a bunch of test drives, etc. Decide on the car you want, then call some dealers and tell them you're ready to buy today, if they'll meet your price. I prefer doing it by phone because, that way, the dealer knows you're just going to go to the next name on the list if they say no.

 

Finally, you sound like you're pretty sophisticated so you probably already know this, but you can generally get much better financing independently than through the dealer (unless they're offering 0% APR, which I doubt they are on the FFH). I shopped around and found the lowest APR (again, this was spring 2009) using Capital One's "blank check" auto financing program. Super easy, and I saved a lot of money going that route.

[mirak]

I did some Googling and found a post on the Ford Flex forum with a link to X-plan pricing. The log-in code is NDUNV. (It's for employees of Notre Dame University.) The X-plan price for a base FFH in our area (I don't know what's involved when options come into play) is $26,429. That is actually $580 higher than Consumer Reports' current "bottom-line" price of $25,849, which takes into account the dealer hold-back. But on the other hand, that's the price and as you say, there is no haggling over it. :baby:

 

I'm a little surprised by that Consumer Reports number, but maybe it's right. If that's the case, you might be able to actually do better than x-plan. Please let us know how that turns out.

 

Regarding the fordpartner website, it's too bad it only lists the x-plan price for the base model. There really isn't a way, that I know of, to determine x-plan price for the specific model you're interested in without looking at the dealer's invoice.

[bbf2530]

I did not realize FFHs were in such short supply. Granted, you're in California, the hybrid capital of the U.S., but that still surprises me. If you want to get a good deal on a FFH, your best bet is using Ford's "x-plan" pricing. X-plan is a special "haggle-free" price program available to friends and family of Ford employees, or employees of certain Ford-affiliated companies, but anybody can get an x-plan pin number, if they know how.

 

The price is a few hundred more than the dealer's true invoice price (which is sometimes lower than the "invoice price" reflected on Edmunds). Also, the only extra fee permitted under x-plan is the standard $750 destination charge, plus a maximum $75 "doc fee" (at least, this was the rule back in 2009). No ridiculous $500 doc fees or other fees dealers try to add on in the back room. Thus, x-plan can result in pretty significant savings. While I have heard of a few people actually doing better than x-plan this summer when dealers were really hurting, x-plan is probably about as good as you can get. Plus, it's haggle-free. Ford actually requires that the x-plan price be printed on each dealer invoice, which the dealer has to show you if you ask to see it.

 

There are two tricks to x-plan: First, the dealers are not required to sell all cars at x-plan price, expecially cars that are in short supply. Thus, even if you find the car you want in CA, the dealer might not accept x-plan for that car. The first dealer I found in KS back in spring 2009 wouldn't take it, because he only had two FFHs on the lot, but I found another dealer across town who would. Second, you need to get yourself an x-plan pin. There's many ways to do this:

1. Did you work for a large company? They might be a Ford affiliate. You can look this up on the internet.

2. Do you have an e-trade account or otherwise buy/sell stock? If you buy one share of stock, you can request an x-plan pin. You can sell the stock at any time. Google it.

3. Do you know anybody who works for Ford? Each employee gets something like 4 x-plan pins per year that they can give out.

4. Go to this website and ask for a pin! Be patient and polite. This is how I got mine.

 

Hi Mirak. :D In addition to what akirby stated, just one other correction (well, actually a clarification) to the good information you posted above: While an AXZ-Plan customer does pay the "Destination Charge/Fee", it is already included in the X-Plan price which is listed on the Factory Invoice. Therefore, it is an invisible fee and already included in the X-Plan price.

 

So when signing the paperwork, no one should see any added fees (Destination/Delivery or otherwise) on their Purchase Contract other than the exact X-Plan price as listed on the Factory Invoice, the maximum allowable $100 "Documentation Fee" (which is negotiable down to some extent) and the charges for any Dealer added options you agreed to (i.e. pin-striping, extended warranty etc.), if applicable. And then of course your particular State Taxes, Title and Registration fees.

 

Also, keep in mind that an X-Plan buyer is still eligible for all publicly available Incentives/Rebates (and sometimes AXZ customer only Incentives). So any qualifying Incentives would still be deducted from that X-Plan price (after taxes are figured in). I wonder if that "lower" Consumer Reports "bottom line" price takes available Incentives into consideration. That would explain the price difference, as the X-Plan price listed on the AXZ and Ford partner websites do not include available Incentives. Don't know since I do not subscribe, just thinking out loud. :idea:

 

The AXZ-Plan purchase process can be a bit confusing the first time, so we just want to avoid the possibility of the Dealer slipping in disallowed fees (unfortunately, it does happen quite often).

 

And just to verify, the ownership rules for Ford Shareholder PINS has been changed to a minimum of 100 shares and 6 months ownership.

 

Hope this information helps.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited December 23, 2010 by bbf2530

[mirak]

Hi Mirak. :D In addition to what akirby stated, just one other correction (well, actually a clarification) to the good information you posted above: While an AXZ-Plan customer does pay the "Destination Charge/Fee", it is already included in the X-Plan price which is listed on the Factory Invoice. Therefore, it is an invisible fee and already included in the X-Plan price.

 

So when signing the paperwork, no one should see any added fees (Destination/Delivery or otherwise) on their Purchase Contract other than the exact X-Plan price as listed on the Factory Invoice, the maximum allowable $100 "Documentation Fee" (which is negotiable down to some extent) and the charges for any Dealer added options you agreed to (i.e. pin-striping, extended warranty etc.), if applicable. And then of course your particular State Taxes, Title and Registration fees.

 

All great information. Regarding the $750 destination charge - I think you are right that the price on the invoice should already have this rolled in. However, for some confusing reason, the x-plan price listed on the fordpartners website says that the destination charge is additional to the price listed on the site. So, I think the x-plan price listed on the fordpartners website will actually be $750 less than the price you'll see on the invoice (for a base model). Do I have that right? Maybe I'm misreading the fordpartners website.

 

And by the way, you are so right that some dealers will try to slip in extra fees even though they're not supposed to. If you're going the x-plan route, it is a good idea to arrive at the dealer armed with a copy of the rules from the fordpartners website, and also have the Ford Customer Service number programmed in your phone. I can't remember the specifics, but at the last minute my salesman tried to tack on a couple of hundred dollars with an extra fee that he swore was not already included in x-plan. I dialed up customer service to settle the matter, but before I got through to a rep, the salesman came back from the "back office" and offered to waive the fee. Acted like he was doing me a favor. It was a pretty scummy experience but I finally got the right price. I'm sure not all dealers are like that, but be prepared!

[bbf2530]

All great information. Regarding the $750 destination charge - I think you are right that the price on the invoice should already have this rolled in. However, for some confusing reason, the x-plan price listed on the fordpartners website says that the destination charge is additional to the price listed on the site. So, I think the x-plan price listed on the fordpartners website will actually be $750 less than the price you'll see on the invoice (for a base model). Do I have that right? Maybe I'm misreading the fordpartners website.

 

And by the way, you are so right that some dealers will try to slip in extra fees even though they're not supposed to. If you're going the x-plan route, it is a good idea to arrive at the dealer armed with a copy of the rules from the fordpartners website, and also have the Ford Customer Service number programmed in your phone. I can't remember the specifics, but at the last minute my salesman tried to tack on a couple of hundred dollars with an extra fee that he swore was not already included in x-plan. I dialed up customer service to settle the matter, but before I got through to a rep, the salesman came back from the "back office" and offered to waive the fee. Acted like he was doing me a favor. It was a pretty scummy experience but I finally got the right price. I'm sure not all dealers are like that, but be prepared!

 

Hi mirak. :D Yes, the X-Plan price listed on the Factory Invoice definitely has all fees and charges (including "Destination/Delivery") already included.

 

Concerning the information on the Ford Partners website, this is my best advice. The information can be confusing. Essentially, if you read further into the fine print on the Ford AXZ and Ford Partner websites, they specifically advise that the pricing on the site is not the final word and the only correct way to get the correct X-Plan price is to visit the Dealer and see the actual Factory Invoice with the X-Plan price box listed. Of course, I realize this makes Internet shopping more difficult, but that is what I advise to all of my family and friends when they ask.

 

In addition, for those with access to the Ford AXZ and Partner websites (as you have at the moment), you can use the "Search Dealer Inventory" feature. You input a Zip Code and you can search Inventory in all of the Dealers close to that Zip (usually a list of about 5-6 will come up). If you dive deeper into a particular Dealers Inventory section, you can access the true X-Plan price (before Incentives are deducted) of every vehicle the Dealer has in stock.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited December 23, 2010 by bbf2530

[AptosDriver]

you can generally get much better financing independently than through the dealer

Thanks for all your help. Fortunately (literally), I don't need any financing. I'm primarily concerned with getting the right car for us at the right price. Could be an FFH, could be a loaded Camry hybrid, could even be a loaded Lincoln MKZ hybrid -- sat in one today; very nice and very pricey. The sticker was a little north of $40 K. :doh: That's 10 K more than I've ever paid for a new car.

[runutzzzzz]

Thanks for all your help. Fortunately (literally), I don't need any financing. I'm primarily concerned with getting the right car for us at the right price. Could be an FFH, could be a loaded Camry hybrid, could even be a loaded Lincoln MKZ hybrid -- sat in one today; very nice and very pricey. The sticker was a little north of $40 K. :doh: That's 10 K more than I've ever paid for a new car.

 

I'd get a used MKZ hybrid if I had to buy a car right now. I'm still confused as to why anyone would by buy a new Toyota Camry Hybrid... LOL

 

I'm still not sure why everyone thinks that the FFH is $2500 more than the Camry.

[AptosDriver]

Hi mirak. :D Yes, the X-Plan price listed on the Factory Invoice definitely has all fees and charges (including "Destination/Delivery") already included.

:beerchug:

 

Unfortunately, according to the fine print on the AXZ pricing, it does not include all fees and charges:

 

"³ Net Plan price equals the Plan price less purchase incentives. Optional equipment, $750 destination/delivery, taxes, title, and license fees extra. [emphases are mine]" So, whatever ...:shift:

Oh, and BTW, the looks like the destination charge on the '11 models is $850.:rant:

Edited December 24, 2010 by AptosDriver

[AptosDriver]

You have to own the stock for at least 6 months (and the number of shares might have gone up to 100 - not positive though). That changed a little over a year ago.

 

And the allowable doc fee on X plan just went up to $100. It's still the best way to buy. On every plan sale Ford gives the dealer an additional $400-$500 spiff check.

You're right, and right about the number of shares and how long you have to hold 'em. Here's a letter from Ford I found quoted in the F150 forum:

 

"Thank you for your recent email to Ford Motor Company, Shareholder Relations.

As a special thank you to our shareholders, we offer the opportunity to participate in our "Friends & Neighbors" Special Vehicle Pricing Privilege (also known as X-Plan).

To qualify, you need to be a current shareholder who has held a minimum of one hundred (100) Ford Motor Company shares (Ticker: F) for the past 6 months or longer.

An electronic copy of the application to be submitted is attached. Please return the application and proof that you are a shareholder to the Shareholder Relations department, as instructed on the application, and an X-Plan number will be given for you to take to your dealership. Typical turnaround time for issuance of an X-Plan PIN is 3-5 business days."

 

Oh, and by the way, Ford stock closed at $16.78 today, meaning 100 shares would set you back $1,678 at the current price. You'd essentially have to add that cost on to the X-plan price. Of course, you can recover that cost by selling the stock after you buy the car. The risk is that going in, you don't know what the stock will be worth six months down the road. It could be more or it could be less. Anyway what you net or don't net off the stock sale will either further reduce your cost or not increase as much as the original stock purchase had/would. And in any event, given the upfront cost, you've gotta be sure you want this car in the first place.

I am not, yet. The best way to find out would be to rent one for a weekend. Unfortunately, Ford dealers do not rent cars and none of the rental agencies around here have FFHs.

 

The local Toyota dealer, on the other hand, will happily rent me a Camry hybrid -- for only $110 for a 3-day weekend.

Edited December 24, 2010 by AptosDriver

[AptosDriver]

We have had over 100 new vehicles including Jaguars, Lincoln/Mercury, Ford and Chevrolets. Our FFH is the best built, technologically advanced and fun to drive vehicle we have ever owned/leased. The biggest problem I have with it is that my wife thinks it's hers and makes me drive the MKX.

Wow! Either you're a manic car collector or a dealer.

[akirby]

Unfortunately, according to the fine print on the AXZ pricing, it does not include all fees and charges:

 

"³ Net Plan price equals the Plan price less purchase incentives. Optional equipment, $750 destination/delivery, taxes, title, and license fees extra. [emphases are mine]" So, whatever ...:shift:

 

What you quoted is from the plan website. The prices shown there are examples only and for some reason they chose not to include the destination charge. However, what bbf2530 was trying to tell you is if you look at the ACTUAL dealer invoice there is a box labeled X plan. THAT price (which is the only valid one) already includes the destination charge, FDAF (advertising), fuel and any other fees. You pay THAT price plus tax, tag, title and $100 doc fee.

 

If you don't have access to the X plan dealer inventory search where you can see actual X plan prices then go to edmunds.com and figure out the dealer invoice cost for your vehicle including destination and add $600 to cover the FDAF charge. That will usually get you within $100 of the actual X plan price.

[AptosDriver]

What premium? My TCH fully loaded was $32,7xx vs my FFH loaded was $32,9xx? Where are you guys getting this $2500?

Actually, I don't know where I/we got it either. I've built a couple of spreadsheets for the FFH and the TCH, respectively, to compare MSRP prices with Consumer Reports' "bottom-line" price. I just took another look at the price difference between a fully loaded FFH (with option package 502 Rapid Spec A) and a fully loaded TCH (leather, moonroof, NAV, "comfort package" and so forth). The CR invoice price for the fully loaded FFH is $30,608 and for the fully loaded TCH $29,148, making the FFH "only" $1,460 more than the TCH. That's not enough to deter me from buying the FFH if I like it better than the TCH. The best way to find out would be to rent each car for a weekend. I can and will rent a Camry hybrid from the local dealer, but none of the Ford dealers will rent their cars (insurance issue). So to that extent, buying the FFH would be a real leap of faith. The question is whether I have enough confidence in Ford to make the leap. An earlier respondent to my original question noted that in San Francisco -- 85 miles up the road from us -- Ford Escape hybrid taxis are being retired after some have gone 300,000 miles with no problems, and on the original batteries. I've one foot already over the precipice ...:drool:

[runutzzzzz]

Actually, I don't know where I/we got it either. I've built a couple of spreadsheets for the FFH and the TCH, respectively, to compare MSRP prices with Consumer Reports' "bottom-line" price. I just took another look at the price difference between a fully loaded FFH (with option package 502 Rapid Spec A) and a fully loaded TCH (leather, moonroof, NAV, "comfort package" and so forth). The CR invoice price for the fully loaded FFH is $30,608 and for the fully loaded TCH $29,148, making the FFH "only" $1,460 more than the TCH. That's not enough to deter me from buying the FFH if I like it better than the TCH. The best way to find out would be to rent each car for a weekend. I can and will rent a Camry hybrid from the local dealer, but none of the Ford dealers will rent their cars (insurance issue). So to that extent, buying the FFH would be a real leap of faith. The question is whether I have enough confidence in Ford to make the leap. An earlier respondent to my original question noted that in San Francisco -- 85 miles up the road from us -- Ford Escape hybrid taxis are being retired after some have gone 300,000 miles with no problems, and on the original batteries. I've one foot already over the precipice ...:drool:

 

I see invoice of $29,500 for the TCH and $30,200 for the FFH? Anyways it's not a huge diff a few hundred. Maybe CR was factoring in rebates? Like I said before, that was my first and last Toyota! I'm not as bad as the guy with 100 cars so far but I have owned 19 different cars in the past 7 years and I will NEVER buy another Toyota. Be warned LOL

[Zzyzx]

One more thing to consider. The Ford Fusion is on the list of 2011's safest cars according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS). I like the BLIS feature on the side mirrors that lets you know if a car is in your blind spot.

[bbf2530]

Unfortunately, according to the fine print on the AXZ pricing, it does not include all fees and charges:

 

"³ Net Plan price equals the Plan price less purchase incentives. Optional equipment, $750 destination/delivery, taxes, title, and license fees extra. [emphases are mine]" So, whatever ...:shift:

Oh, and BTW, the looks like the destination charge on the '11 models is $850.:rant:

 

 

Hi aptosdriver. :D Please carefully reread the section of my reply you quoted. We are discussing two different subjects. If you reread my reply, I am not addressing the information on the Ford AXZ or Ford Partner websites (which is what you also went on to quote in your reply). Again, what I am stating is that the X-Plan price listed on the actual Factory Invoice in the Dealerships possession does include all Ford and Dealer allowed fees and charges except for the $100 maximum "Documentation Fee". That information is correct.

 

If you research all the Plan pricing information on the AXZ or Plan websites, Ford clearly explains that the proper way to obtain the correct X-Plan price is by viewing the actual Factory Invoice at the Dealership. All other information on the Plan websites is for general information purposes only.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

EDIT - Just saw that akirby has already explained this in his later reply. Thank you Allen. :shift:

Edited December 24, 2010 by bbf2530

[AptosDriver]

I see invoice of $29,500 for the TCH and $30,200 for the FFH? Anyways it's not a huge diff a few hundred. Maybe CR was factoring in rebates? Like I said before, that was my first and last Toyota! I'm not as bad as the guy with 100 cars so far but I have owned 19 different cars in the past 7 years and I will NEVER buy another Toyota. Be warned LOL

Consumer Reports factors in the "dealer holdback," which is a manufacturer's subsidy to car dealers on every car they sell. Edmunds doesn't take it into account. The current holdback on the Ford Fusion hybrid is $847, according to CR's online car-pricing service. You have to pay a $13 annual premium for this, on top of Consumer Reports.org's $19 annual fee for full access to ratings on everything else. Used to be, you could only get these car-pricing reports by mail and you had to pay separately for each report. You can still get them by mail if you want -- at $14 for the first car you price and $12 for each additional car. This service is a great deal because for the one-time $13 fee, you can price as many cars as you want, whenever you want. -- for yourself or anybody else.

 

You've owned 19 different cars in the past 7 years? That's still a lot of sheet metal. I've purchased a grand total of eight cars over the past 40 years. The first, bought new way back in early '71 for $2,100 plus T&L with $900 down (and paid off in 12 months), was a VW Super Beetle. It was a pretty reliable car which took us cross-country from Washington, D.C. to California, where I now live. Four years and only 58,000 miles later, I traded it for a new, carburated '75 VW Rabbit that turned out to be a huge lemon (fittingly,it was yellow). That was the last VW I ever owned and based on that experience, I would never consider buying another one. My third car -- and now I'm finally getting to my point -- was a new '78 Toyota Corona wagon -- a manual 4-banger, like the previous three cars. It was serviceable, but very dull and the driver's seat was uncomfortable and bad for my back. It also developed a pesky coolant leak that required several visits to the dealership before it was finally fixed. I sold that car (in late '82, as I recall now) and bought a brand-new Volvo 240 DL wagon. I think it set me back $12,000 plus T&L, most of which was financed. Point is, I wasn't happy with my Toyota experience and didn't even consider buying one for another 24 years.

 

I drove the Volvo wagon for more than 15 years and put 285,000 miles on it -- taking it cross country four times -- before I finally traded it in for a five-cylinder, automatic (my first) '97 Volvo 850 sedan in early '98. I bought that car slightly used (it had been in a rental fleet and had just over 12K on the odometer) from a dealer in Culver City, Calif. At that time I was commuting about 50 miles a day round-trip through the heart of L.A., and having to keep shifting all the time was making me more than a little tense, even crazed at times. The automatic was a real boon. But I did love that Volvo wagon, and I never minded maintaining it, even though it required an unexpected amount of maintenance, starting relatively early and unfortunately just out of warranty. But I always budgeted for it. I towed a 1,600 lb. tent trailer with it up and down the West Coast as far as the Oregon/Washington state border and east to Lake Powell and back -- with more than enough power to haul the trailer up any grade -- and it never even came close to overheating. (I had previously towed the trailer with the Corona wagon, which routinely started to overheat on almost any grade in hot weather, and the only way to compensate for that was to turn the car's heater on full blast.)

 

Cutting to the chase (at long last), an Avis Chevy Cavalier -- thrown into the mix for my second wife -- and one more Volvo later (an '00 S70 GLT SE sedan which we still own and purchased very slightly used, former rental-fleet vehicle again, in May '01) -- I finally started looking at Toyota again in '06. The draw was the new RAV4. I bought my 6-cylinder, AWD RAV4 Limited new in '07. I decided we needed at least one vehicle with more utility than a sedan, and I wanted a "ski car". Ironically, the first and only time I took it up to the Sierra in early January, '08, I fell on ice (several hours apres ski) and shattered my right hip socket. I haven't been back to the mountains since then, and consequently, I haven't put anywhere near the miles on the RAV that I'd thought I would've by this time. I haven't even hit 30 K yet. Still it has been a very reliable car to date (knock on wood) and really "fun to drive." It has tremendous power; and occasionally when driving "over the hill" (1,800 ft. summit) between Santa Cruz and San Jose, I delight in pulling away from Beamers and Lexuses where the grade commences and the speed limit is still 65 mph. It gets 21 mph in mixed driving and as much as 30 mph "on the road" -- great for a small SUV. The RAV is why I'm seriously weighing the Camry hybrid against the FFH -- for my spouse, to replace the aging Volvo S70 while it's still worth something.

 

I posted a query about the Camry hybrid in a TCH forum a while back -- similar to my initial question here about the FFH. I've gotten something like 15 replies so far and and I'm shocked at the number of respondents who've said the would not buy a TCH again and have already dumped theirs. The main complaints seem to be about fit and finish, rattles, and a dysfunctional "lockout" NAV system, weird braking and rough transitions between electric and gas. These comments have given me plenty of pause for thought about the TCH. On the other hand, nobody who has responded to my question about the FFH here has trashed their car. In fact, you all seem to be downright proselytizers for it. And the contrast is beginning to make me think -- even though I have never, ever owned a Ford before and haven't liked the ones I've occasionally rented -- that there is an FFH in my future.

 

And that's the very long and short of it (and apologies to all who've read this far for the many, long compound sentences, which I have a tendency to fall into like this when I'm writing lickety-split, and can't seem to help myself from writing, because that's the way my mind works).

[Zzyzx]

Since you like to hang on to cars for a while you might want to check this article out.

 

FFH ranked among top five of most reliable cars

 

If you lived in Southern California I would have gladly let you borrow my car to check it out :shift:

Edited December 24, 2010 by Zzyzx

[AptosDriver]

Since you like to hang on to cars for a while you might want to check this article out.

 

FFH ranked among top five of most reliable cars

 

If you lived in Southern California I would have gladly let you borrow my car to check it out :shift:

Thanks for the link. You must be some kind of prince, to be willing to lend your car to a total stranger!

:victory:

[mirak]

I posted a query about the Camry hybrid in a TCH forum a while back -- similar to my initial question here about the FFH. I've gotten something like 15 replies so far and and I'm shocked at the number of respondents who've said the would not buy a TCH again and have already dumped theirs. The main complaints seem to be about fit and finish, rattles, and a dysfunctional "lockout" NAV system, weird braking and rough transitions between electric and gas.

 

Fit and finish is a very common complaint for the Camry. It's not as good as the FFH. Kind of surprising for Toyota, actually, but they've really let this slip with some recent models. My 2006 Highlander Hybrid had a great interior.

 

Only time will tell about Ford's realiability, but the FFH's have been on the market for over two years now and reliability so far is fantastic. Ford has clearly upped its game.

[akirby]

You don't need CR's service - everyone knows that holdback on Fords is 3%. But if you're going to factor in holdback into the dealer's cost then you also need to factor in floor plan (interest on the money the dealer borrows to pay Ford for the vehicle). This can easily exceed the 3% holdback after just a few months.

 

It amazes me how much some people despise the dealer making a few hundred bucks on a car sale. Consider that the profit on a top of the line $4000 HDTV is probably way more than the dealer actually makes on a $40,000 car sale.

[AptosDriver]

You don't need CR's service - everyone knows that holdback on Fords is 3%. But if you're going to factor in holdback into the dealer's cost then you also need to factor in floor plan (interest on the money the dealer borrows to pay Ford for the vehicle). This can easily exceed the 3% holdback after just a few months.

 

It amazes me how much some people despise the dealer making a few hundred bucks on a car sale. Consider that the profit on a top of the line $4000 HDTV is probably way more than the dealer actually makes on a $40,000 car sale.

Unfortunately, I didn't know about the holdback when I bought my RAV4 in '07. It certainly wasn't factored into Edmunds' pricing.

 

As for the floor-plan interest, I know about that. I also have read that the best time to buy a car is at the end of the month when that interest is coming due, because the dealers and their salespeople are under pressure to move cars off the lot both to meet the payments and to avoid still more interest payments the next month. My feeling is that flooring charges are part of their risk and represent a buyer's leverage. And when you go up against car salespeople and their sales managers, who negotiate with customers on a daily basis (compared to the customers, who only do it every seven years on average), you need all the leverage you can get. If I can get them to sell me the car I want at a few hundred dollars over invoice, I'll do it. With no disrespect to the car dealers, that's the way the "game" is supposed to be played. And as for the profit on a $4,000 HDTV (and who sells those things for that price any more?), when was the last time you tried to haggle with Best Buy?:redcard: I'm just saying ...

[AptosDriver]

Only time will tell about Ford's realiability, but the FFH's have been on the market for over two years now and reliability so far is fantastic. Ford has clearly upped its game.

If I buy one, I might take out "insurance" by purchasing an extended warranty. This is actually not recommended by many consumer advocates, but the hidden secret about these warranties is that they are negotiable. I got an extended, 7-year, 100,000 mile Toyota warranty (four years and 64,000 miles beyond Toyota's factory warranty) for $805, substantially less than the dealer's extended-warranty "MSRP." All it would take is one major otherwise out-of-warranty repair to make that up.