2010 FFH or MMH?

[EGFP]

Hi, All.

 

I am going to buy a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid or 2010 Mercury Milan Hybrid. Obviously, Mercury is now history, but I think I slightly like the front grill of the MMH better. I know that as an ex-brand, it is likely depreciate a bit faster than the Ford, but I plan to keep it a while. I have even been assured that the few different parts (front and back body panels) will still be manufactured on a small scale and will be available for 10 years to support those who purchased this vehicle (that is standard Ford policy on old models, the dealer tells me). I am skeptical, but apart from those differences, they are the same car.

 

I like the Atlantis Green Metallic exterior, and that won't be available in 2011 on the FFH, so I will got for a 2010 (and there are no compelling features in the 2011 to make me hold off a couple weeks). Plus, while the end of model year (and end of brand for the MMH) deals are not as good as for non-hybrids, the pricing is still aggressive. $500 below invoice (I verified invoice).

 

What you all do? FFH or MMH?

 

Thanks.

[Buster1]

FFH! :shift: I like the looks better, and the car will "look" like a newer FFH for many more years (I hope).

 

Nothing against the MMH...I just prefer the FFH.

 

Just bought our FFH last week...the dealers are itching to sell due to the 2011s arriving soon. There are some changes to the 2011s, but I can live with the 2010 options...and enjoyed the huge discount.

[EGFP]

FFH! :shift: I like the looks better, and the car will "look" like a newer FFH for many more years (I hope).

 

Nothing against the MMH...I just prefer the FFH.

 

Just bought our FFH last week...the dealers are itching to sell due to the 2011s arriving soon. There are some changes to the 2011s, but I can live with the 2010 options...and enjoyed the huge discount.

 

Thanks for the response, Buster1!

[mort]

Hi EGFP,

I Have the FFH, I love it.

But I think the MMH has nicer trunk & tail lights. The license plate is low so it is less of a styling focus.

The front grille is OK, but the head lights look pinched.

 

So looks wise pluses and minuses. There won't be any new Milans to make your 2010 look old.

 

-mort

[EGFP]

Hi EGFP,

I Have the FFH, I love it.

But I think the MMH has nicer trunk & tail lights. The license plate is low so it is less of a styling focus.

The front grille is OK, but the head lights look pinched.

 

So looks wise pluses and minuses. There won't be any new Milans to make your 2010 look old.

 

-mort

 

Thanks, Mort. I like the Mercury grille, although it does look a bit too Jeepish. I actually like the front head lights, but it's the rear lights that I don't like, since they are overly wide and are split between side and trunk.

 

Anyway, you're right. I'll go back to the dealer and go with my gut. At any rate, my dilly-dallying has made the dealer really want to sell me a car, so I'll get a good price on either.

 

Thanks, again.

[runutzzzzz]

I was so close to purchasing a MMH since they had dealer cash of $1500? and would put it inline with the FFH but two things held me back.

 

First thing was the two tone seats, ekkk... Not for me.

Second thing was the rear tail lights don't line up! WTF Ford???

 

 

Yes I am aware that's not the correct car but they are all the same... LOL

Edited August 11, 2010 by runutzzzzz

[EGFP]

I was so close to purchasing a MMH since they had dealer cash of $1500? and would put it inline with the FFH but two things held me back.

 

First thing was the two tone seats, ekkk... Not for me.

Second thing was the rear tail lights don't line up! WTF Ford???

 

 

Yes I am aware that's not the correct car but they are all the same... LOL

 

Thanks, runutzzzzz. The two-tone thing is the medium light stone leather interior, black/grey on the outside and beige on the inside. It looks cool when I saw it. I don't know why they don't have the charcoal black option, though. But I kind of like the black/grey outside with beige inside thing.

 

I agree about the rear lights. That's the main thing that bothers me.

 

I am half-thinking of waiting for the Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, but for another $10K, it's a steep entree into basically the same vehicle as the FFH, interior-refinement be damned.

[VonoreTn]

Thanks, runutzzzzz. The two-tone thing is the medium light stone leather interior, black/grey on the outside and beige on the inside. It looks cool when I saw it. I don't know why they don't have the charcoal black option, though. But I kind of like the black/grey outside with beige inside thing.

 

I agree about the rear lights. That's the main thing that bothers me.

 

I am half-thinking of waiting for the Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, but for another $10K, it's a steep entree into basically the same vehicle as the FFH, interior-refinement be damned.

 

I saw a Milan at a stoplight and noticed the tail-lights didn't line up perfectly. I thought it must just be that one car. I guess the dies for the fender and the trunk weren't perfectly calculated.

 

I like the looks of my FFH, including the grill. A MMH might cost you more to get body parts in the future, which might make insurance cost more. The two tone seats don't bother me, just a matter of taste.

[Grey]

Last time I looked, there were special incentives on the MMilanH due to the phase-out.

[akirby]

Last time I looked, there were special incentives on the MMilanH due to the phase-out.

 

Yep - there appears to be $1500 dealer cash on all Mercury models which is available to plan buyers (A/Z/X/D) as an additional rebate.

[EGFP]

Yep - there appears to be $1500 dealer cash on all Mercury models which is available to plan buyers (A/Z/X/D) as an additional rebate.

 

You have to be a plan buyer. I suppose, though, that in a month or so, when the inventory has still not moved significantly, there will be incentives to the public at large.

[Buster1]

Just compare them at invoice. Get online and do a little research. Don't feel "great" cause the dealer says they'll give you $1500 off!! Get it at INVOICE and save ~$2000!!!!!! They will do invoice if you walk in with that number and ask. If they say no, go to the next dealer.

 

Now is the time to buy, the 2011s are due in asap and the dealers want the '10s off the lots!

[EGFP]

Just compare them at invoice. Get online and do a little research. Don't feel "great" cause the dealer says they'll give you $1500 off!! Get it at INVOICE and save ~$2000!!!!!! They will do invoice if you walk in with that number and ask. If they say no, go to the next dealer.

 

Now is the time to buy, the 2011s are due in asap and the dealers want the '10s off the lots!

 

I can get the 2010 FFH or MMH at below invoice now without much hassle, but that leads me to think... Invoice itself has a time-dependency. Invoice is supposedly what the dealer pays the factory for the car, although they always pay less than that with volume discounts, etc. They are getting the cars, generally, at well below invoice. However, at the end of a model year (or brand), with dealers wanting to move the cars, invoice goes out the window. They want to move the cars at some point at little profit.

 

The rules break down a bit with low inventory vehicles. Two or three hybrids on a lot are not taking up a lot of space next to all their non-hybrid counterparts. Most dealers, for instance, have a lot more non-hybrid Fusions than hybrid Fusions, and they focus on moving the non-hybrid vehicles first. The hybrids, they figure, will go, as the niche market is less volatile and incentive-driven, and, again, they are not taking up that much space as the inventory is low relative to all the other vehicles. The factory/maker offers less incentives to moving the hybrids for the same reason.

 

At any rate, you can get great deals on hybrids, but it's not the same differential as with the non-hybrids. But I think, honestly, that the 2010 FFH and MMH cars were a bit overproduced. Depending on the dealer, whether it's in an area where hybrids are perceived to be in, they may have more or less of a stock. But in terms of factory incentives overall, they are still not out there to the same degree as non-hybrids. At some point, though, the maker will offer more incentives and the dealers will move the stock.

[EGFP]

Just compare them at invoice. Get online and do a little research. Don't feel "great" cause the dealer says they'll give you $1500 off!! Get it at INVOICE and save ~$2000!!!!!! They will do invoice if you walk in with that number and ask. If they say no, go to the next dealer.

 

Now is the time to buy, the 2011s are due in asap and the dealers want the '10s off the lots!

 

Here's what's going on in the Northeast. I've contacted multiple dealers and done some Internet inquiries. I can get the 2010 FFH with the 502A package and nav for $29K. A similar, all-the-bells-and-whistles 2010 MMH, despite it being end of brand, is $30K. Both are below invoice. A year ago, the MMH with everything would have been less expensive than the FFH with everything by a small amount. Now the FFH with everything is a bit less expensive. They are trying to move the 2010 FFH's more than than the MMH's because there is more stock of 2010 FFH's. If I wanted to buy with just some of the options, there'd be more flexibility and variability, but I've decided to go whole hog for a number of reasons.

 

This is not including the $1.5K incentive for Mercury sales to plan buyers, but most people are not plan buyers.

 

It's interesting, but it will change. The MMH is one of the slower moving cars and has been all 2010. Even though the inventory is low - the stock lower than the 2010 FFH's at most dealers and definitely much lower overall (which is what Ford is looking at for incentives), at some point, either Ford or individual dealer will decide, it's time to move these vehicles. Very soon. But it there won't ever be a fire sale on the Mercurys, like there was with the Saturns, because the inventory is low.

 

Anyway, I can hold out a few more weeks.

[akirby]

You have to be a plan buyer. I suppose, though, that in a month or so, when the inventory has still not moved significantly, there will be incentives to the public at large.

 

You misunderstood. That extra plan rebate represents dealer cash - so on a non-plan sale the dealer gets $1500 from Ford and if you know that you can use that to negotiate your price below invoice. Think of it as an unadvertised rebate.

[EGFP]

You misunderstood. That extra plan rebate represents dealer cash - so on a non-plan sale the dealer gets $1500 from Ford and if you know that you can use that to negotiate your price below invoice. Think of it as an unadvertised rebate.

 

Ah. I see. Very good!

[akirby]

Ah. I see. Very good!

 

With plan sales Ford doesn't want the dealer pocketing the extra dealer cash, so they usually turn it into an extra plan-only rebate. That's one of the advantages of using X plan whenever possible.

[EGFP]

You misunderstood. That extra plan rebate represents dealer cash - so on a non-plan sale the dealer gets $1500 from Ford and if you know that you can use that to negotiate your price below invoice. Think of it as an unadvertised rebate.

 

Just a little question. What would be the best way to go about negotiating on this basis (without being eligible for the X-plan rebate, but using it as leverage)? How would you go personally go about this? Thanks.

[akirby]

Just a little question. What would be the best way to go about negotiating on this basis (without being eligible for the X-plan rebate, but using it as leverage)? How would you go personally go about this? Thanks.

 

I would just tell them that you understand there is $1500 dealer cash and that you'll be taking that into account when negotiating price. Treat it like a rebate. If the dealer only offers you Invoice, tell them they're making $1500 and make a counter offer. I don't begrudge my dealer a little profit so I usually shoot for $200 - $500 over invoice, minus all rebates and dealer cash. But it depends on the vehicle and how many they have and how popular they are at the time.

[EGFP]

I would just tell them that you understand there is $1500 dealer cash and that you'll be taking that into account when negotiating price. Treat it like a rebate. If the dealer only offers you Invoice, tell them they're making $1500 and make a counter offer. I don't begrudge my dealer a little profit so I usually shoot for $200 - $500 over invoice, minus all rebates and dealer cash. But it depends on the vehicle and how many they have and how popular they are at the time.

 

Thanks, akirby. That's helpful. They are selling these things a bit below invoice (according to Edmunds, which doesn't include their full invoice price, although it doesn't include their factory-to-dealer discounts either). I'd really love to get the 2010 MMH, but they are quoting what they say is $500 below invoice at 30K for the MMH fully loaded. It'd still like to do better for an ex-brand.

[akirby]

Thanks, akirby. That's helpful. They are selling these things a bit below invoice (according to Edmunds, which doesn't include their full invoice price, although it doesn't include their factory-to-dealer discounts either). I'd really love to get the 2010 MMH, but they are quoting what they say is $500 below invoice at 30K for the MMH fully loaded. It'd still like to do better for an ex-brand.

 

You also have to understand that if they can get someone else to buy it for their asking price then there is no reason for them to drop the price for you. You should shop around at other dealers (if you can't get a PIN). That's not an unreasonable price if you look at it from the dealer's standpoint.

[runutzzzzz]

I would just tell them that you understand there is $1500 dealer cash and that you'll be taking that into account when negotiating price. Treat it like a rebate. If the dealer only offers you Invoice, tell them they're making $1500 and make a counter offer. I don't begrudge my dealer a little profit so I usually shoot for $200 - $500 over invoice, minus all rebates and dealer cash. But it depends on the vehicle and how many they have and how popular they are at the time.

 

I would always shoot for UNDER invoice, dealers have holdback and the longer it sits the more they pay on the floor plan.

 

 

Thanks, akirby. That's helpful. They are selling these things a bit below invoice (according to Edmunds, which doesn't include their full invoice price, although it doesn't include their factory-to-dealer discounts either). I'd really love to get the 2010 MMH, but they are quoting what they say is $500 below invoice at 30K for the MMH fully loaded. It'd still like to do better for an ex-brand.

 

The problem is the brand is going away but not dead yet... Wait until they officially cut off Mercury for the killer deals.

[drolds1]

Invoice is supposedly what the dealer pays the factory for the car, although they always pay less than that with volume discounts, etc. They are getting the cars, generally, at well below invoice. However, at the end of a model year (or brand), with dealers wanting to move the cars, invoice goes out the window. They want to move the cars at some point at little profit.

 

 

All dealers pay the same amount to the factory. There are no "volume discounts." It's illegal for the factory to charge different dealers different amounts for the same car.

 

They get the cars "well below invoice" due to dealer holdbacks and other cash incentives that vary by car and time of the year.

[akirby]

I would always shoot for UNDER invoice, dealers have holdback and the longer it sits the more they pay on the floor plan.

 

 

 

 

The problem is the brand is going away but not dead yet... Wait until they officially cut off Mercury for the killer deals.

 

The holdback is 3% - $900 on a $30K car. Pay the salesperson and that doesn't leave very much money for the dealership to pay the sales mgr, receptionist, prep guys, etc. Not to mention keeping the lights on.

 

Best Buy makes more on a $3K flat screen TV. And you want them to make even less money?

 

I'm sure you don't work for free - why do you expect the dealer to?

[EGFP]

The holdback is 3% - $900 on a $30K car. Pay the salesperson and that doesn't leave very much money for the dealership to pay the sales mgr, receptionist, prep guys, etc. Not to mention keeping the lights on.

 

Best Buy makes more on a $3K flat screen TV. And you want them to make even less money?

 

I'm sure you don't work for free - why do you expect the dealer to?

 

It's a tough business, but any car dealer that has been in business for a while has it figured out. Margins will vary depending on demand, vehicle and time. But overall, they probably don't lose on many vehicles, even when selling year-end ones. But it's part of the whole thing. Savvy buyers who are not buying the car du jour with a high premium will not make up the bulk of their profits, obviously. But there's a use to these buyers, as they buy up inventory that is not moving as fast. So I don't shed a tear for the dealer when someone walks off with a good deal, because that was offset by a terrible deal (from the buyer's standpoint) by another vehicle. And even the buyer's good deals are often not as good as the buyer may think. At any rate, when the averages come out, a long-standing dealer is netting a good profit for the dealership owner at least, even after all the overhead and wages to employees, or the business would be an ex-business.

 

More on holdbacks...

 

http://www.safecarguide.com/gui/neg/holdback.htm