New FFH, odd behavior after startup

[2HtoHe]

I am a brand new owner of a Fusion Hybrid -- now about 10 days old.

 

I have been seeing some odd issues with the car that occur for the first few minutes of driving the car. Some of these odd behaviors started within the first day after I bought the car, but it seems like things have escalated a bit since then. I am new enough to the car that I am not sure if its just something I unknowingly set that is causing this, or if there is a problem with the car.

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

Note: I have the full-nav system, 502A package.

 

Here are the things I have noticed that typically occur for the first few minutes after starting:

 

1) The regenerative braking does not work, or at least the recycle symbol does not come on when I expect it to. It works normally after this "startup" period, coming on almost every time I apply brakes.

2) Sometimes, but not always, I cannot get it to run off the electric motor (EV mode), even when the battery is showing nearly full and I am coasting down hill. Again, after the startup period, this works more or less as I expect.

3) I cannot turn on the heated seats for either driver or passenger. In fact in the first trip I took my family out, I was unable to turn on seat warmers for the entire 15 minute ride. But usually after a few minutes, I can turn the heated seats on/off as I wish.

4) This just started 2 days ago -- every time I start the car, the fan (climate system fan) turns on at full blast (and it is very loud.) During the startup period, I cannot turn off the climate system using the climate power button.

 

Also -- I don't know if this is normal, but my accessory power display pretty much never changes. It is pegged at the lowest line all the time, maybe moving up or down a pixel or two at the most (though I have not really paid all that much attention to this, or played around with a whole lot of options of what to turn on or off. I assume turning heated seats on or off should make a huge difference, but it does not.)

 

These problems all occur no matter where I start from, nor drive to. During the startup period, my mileage is typically not higher than 20-25 mpg. Since most of my trips are only about 15 minutes, spending the first 5 at low MPG really puts a hurt on my average mileage.

 

Thanks again for any help -- I welcome your comments.

[flavius]

I am a brand new owner of a Fusion Hybrid -- now about 10 days old...

Have you taken your car to the dealership?

[chriscard25]

I am a brand new owner of a Fusion Hybrid -- now about 10 days old.

 

I have been seeing some odd issues with the car that occur for the first few minutes of driving the car. Some of these odd behaviors started within the first day after I bought the car, but it seems like things have escalated a bit since then. I am new enough to the car that I am not sure if its just something I unknowingly set that is causing this, or if there is a problem with the car.

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

Note: I have the full-nav system, 502A package.

 

Here are the things I have noticed that typically occur for the first few minutes after starting:

 

1) The regenerative braking does not work, or at least the recycle symbol does not come on when I expect it to. It works normally after this "startup" period, coming on almost every time I apply brakes.

2) Sometimes, but not always, I cannot get it to run off the electric motor (EV mode), even when the battery is showing nearly full and I am coasting down hill. Again, after the startup period, this works more or less as I expect.

3) I cannot turn on the heated seats for either driver or passenger. In fact in the first trip I took my family out, I was unable to turn on seat warmers for the entire 15 minute ride. But usually after a few minutes, I can turn the heated seats on/off as I wish.

4) This just started 2 days ago -- every time I start the car, the fan (climate system fan) turns on at full blast (and it is very loud.) During the startup period, I cannot turn off the climate system using the climate power button.

 

Also -- I don't know if this is normal, but my accessory power display pretty much never changes. It is pegged at the lowest line all the time, maybe moving up or down a pixel or two at the most (though I have not really paid all that much attention to this, or played around with a whole lot of options of what to turn on or off. I assume turning heated seats on or off should make a huge difference, but it does not.)

 

These problems all occur no matter where I start from, nor drive to. During the startup period, my mileage is typically not higher than 20-25 mpg. Since most of my trips are only about 15 minutes, spending the first 5 at low MPG really puts a hurt on my average mileage.

 

Thanks again for any help -- I welcome your comments.

 

Hello,

 

Everything but 3 and 4 are normal. 3--I have no idea--i do not have heated seats. 4--does not sound normal at all--I have not had this issue all. A trip to the dealer sounds like a good idea, assuming you can re-produce this.

 

And congrats on your new car!

Edited March 13, 2010 by chriscard25

[lordyourjosh]

Hello,

 

Everything but 3 and 4 are normal. 3--I have no idea--i do not have heated seats. 4--does not sound normal at all--I have not had this issue all. A trip to the dealer sounds like a good idea, assuming you can re-produce this.

 

And congrats on your new car!

 

I will agree with #3 - I test drove a FFH in very cold weather (ICE started up the second it was turned on) and I hit the heated seat button the second I got in. It heated up and there were no issues at all.

 

I get my FFH in about two hours, so I'll make sure to test that feature on mine. Too bad I have to get it in the rain. :banghead:

[lrymal]

......

3) I cannot turn on the heated seats for either driver or passenger. In fact in the first trip I took my family out, I was unable to turn on seat warmers for the entire 15 minute ride. But usually after a few minutes, I can turn the heated seats on/off as I wish.

4) This just started 2 days ago -- every time I start the car, the fan (climate system fan) turns on at full blast (and it is very loud.) During the startup period, I cannot turn off the climate system using the climate power button.

....

These problems all occur no matter where I start from, nor drive to. During the startup period, my mileage is typically not higher than 20-25 mpg. Since most of my trips are only about 15 minutes, spending the first 5 at low MPG really puts a hurt on my average mileage....

 

Dealer visit for 3 and 4, mainly for the inability to turn off the climate system for 4.

 

20 - 25 mpg is bizarre. I live in a very hilly area and with the temperatures in the 30s, I rarely dip below 33 mpg. But I think heavy acceleration as a chronic routine could dip the MPG into the low 20s (going by a very long and unusually quick ascending and high hilly road I have to get on).

Edited March 13, 2010 by lrymal

[chriscard25]

Dealer visit for 3 and 4, mainly for the inability to turn off the climate system for 4.

 

20 - 25 mpg is bizarre. I live in a very hilly area and with the temperatures in the 30s, I rarely dip below 33 mpg. But I think heavy acceleration as a chronic routine could dip the MPG into the low 20s (going by a very long and unusually quick ascending and high hilly road I have to get on).

 

 

Depends on what mileage numbers you are looking at--instant, trip, or long term. With the engine on at start up---20 to 25 is normal for instant.

[lrymal]

Depends on what mileage numbers you are looking at--instant, trip, or long term. With the engine on at start up---20 to 25 is normal for instant.

Well, yeah---true. I mean, I could hit as low as 5 MPG first starting out of the driveway, and as high as 60+ mpg when letting up on the accelerator at highway speeds.

[2HtoHe]

Hello,

 

Everything but 3 and 4 are normal. 3--I have no idea--i do not have heated seats. 4--does not sound normal at all--I have not had this issue all. A trip to the dealer sounds like a good idea, assuming you can re-produce this.

 

And congrats on your new car!

 

Thanks for the reply. At first I thought the fan was possibly coming on because the car was determining defrost was needed (even though it should not have been -- temps have been very mild 40s-50s since I bought the car.) However, I now see that that is not likely what is happening -- the A/C is not turned on (and in fact I cannot turn it on/off for the first 2 minutes.) The only climate button that works for the first two minutes after start is the fan "-" button, but the system immediately increases it back to max after every time I try to decrease it.

 

So yes, I think you are right -- I will need to bring it back to the dealer.

 

Regarding items 1 and 2, why would this be normal? Why would regenerative braking not work for the first few minutes after starting? Also when I first got the car, I know I was able to enter EV mode right after start and stay in it for quite some time, depending on the road conditions. On one of my first short (2.5mi) trips, I was able to get 72mpg.

 

Now I cannot get into EV mode until after about 3-4 minutes. The temperatures over the last few days has been warmer than it was the first few days. Also note this behavior is independent of the level of the battery -- this happens even when the battery is nearly topped off (according to the dash indicator).

 

Thanks again!

[2HtoHe]

Dealer visit for 3 and 4, mainly for the inability to turn off the climate system for 4.

 

20 - 25 mpg is bizarre. I live in a very hilly area and with the temperatures in the 30s, I rarely dip below 33 mpg. But I think heavy acceleration as a chronic routine could dip the MPG into the low 20s (going by a very long and unusually quick ascending and high hilly road I have to get on).

 

Thanks for commenting.

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about the mileage. I mean using the bar graph over the last 10 minutes. I typically see the first 3 or 4 bars (3 or 4 mins) at between 0 and 25 mpg. (After watching more closely the last three trips since my first post, I see that I never get > 20 mpg for the first 3 minutes of a trip.)

 

However, for a typical trip to or from work (about 15 mins of light city driving), I get about 35-40 mpg overall. Which isn't awful, for sure. It's just worse than I think it should be because of the poor mileage over the first 20% of a 15 minute trip. Overall mileage is reporting at around 36.

[lolder]

There are FIVE mpg indications; the "Long Term Fuel Economy" that appears at the bottom of the trip summary on the right instrument panel after every shutdown, the "Average mpg" that is displayed in an info screen, The instantaneous mpg gauge on the panel, the trip summary mpg, and the bar graph display. You should learn what each one means. The climate control "knows" what the humidity is and will automatically defrost/defog when required except for the heated rear window. There are many things that make the ICE run, climate control use is one. It should always be able to be turned off.

[bif]

If your heater is trying to warm the car you can't go into ev mode until the engine temp is in the normal range. Your ICE is what provides the heat.

Edited March 13, 2010 by bif

[2HtoHe]

If your heater is trying to warm the car you can't go into ev mode until the engine temp is in the normal range. Your ICE is what provides the heat.

 

Yes, I was assuming that -- so I had started turning the climate off and leaving it off most of the time.

 

Unfortunately now I can't turn it off for a couple of minutes. But even then, there is a one or two minute period AFTER I am able to -- and do -- turn off the climate, during which I still cannot get it to switch to EV mode, and do not see regenerative braking working.

[EntropyAvatar]

Regarding items 1 and 2, why would this be normal? Why would regenerative braking not work for the first few minutes after starting? Also when I first got the car, I know I was able to enter EV mode right after start and stay in it for quite some time, depending on the road conditions. On one of my first short (2.5mi) trips, I was able to get 72mpg.

 

Mainly it's that it has to warm up the engine and the catalytic converter to operating temperatures. For the regen, I think it might be a bit of a warm up period on it as well. The regenerative brakes can dump a lot of power into the battery very quickly. I suspect the system tries to avoid that in the first minute or so after startup, probably to preserve battery life.

 

As for not happening on the first day, it was probably warmed up before you left the dealer. Probably before you even got in. If it doesn't have too long to cool off, then the warmup period is much shorter or skipped.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that EV mode is not free. The energy to power EV mode comes from the engine when it's running. In your short trip, unless it was downhill, the 72 mpg is not a true accounting since you probably left the battery at a lower charge level than when you started. It takes gas to bring that back up. The flip side of this is that having the car run the engine for the first few minutes is not all wasted gas either, as it can charge up the battery during this period, so you can have better gas mileage during the next section of your trip. Besides, the engine has to warm up to operate efficiently, so if you didn't go through the warm up period you would never get good mileage. This applies to all cars, but you probably didn't worry about it because you weren't being told the mileage every minute.

Edited March 13, 2010 by EntropyAvatar

[FFHdriver]

Yes, I was assuming that -- so I had started turning the climate off and leaving it off most of the time.

 

Unfortunately now I can't turn it off for a couple of minutes. But even then, there is a one or two minute period AFTER I am able to -- and do -- turn off the climate, during which I still cannot get it to switch to EV mode, and do not see regenerative braking working.

For #4, what button do you use to turn off the system? I use the power button listed as #5 on page 66 or #11 on page 68 of the owners manual. It always works on my car.

Edited March 14, 2010 by FFHdriver

[2HtoHe]

For #4, what button do you use to turn off the system? I use the power button listed as #5 on page 66 or #11 on page 68 of the owners manual. It always works on my car.

 

 

Yes, #11 on page 68, the climate system "Power" button.

[2HtoHe]

Mainly it's that it has to warm up the engine and the catalytic converter to operating temperatures. For the regen, I think it might be a bit of a warm up period on it as well. The regenerative brakes can dump a lot of power into the battery very quickly. I suspect the system tries to avoid that in the first minute or so after startup, probably to preserve battery life.

 

As for not happening on the first day, it was probably warmed up before you left the dealer. Probably before you even got in. If it doesn't have too long to cool off, then the warmup period is much shorter or skipped.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that EV mode is not free. The energy to power EV mode comes from the engine when it's running. In your short trip, unless it was downhill, the 72 mpg is not a true accounting since you probably left the battery at a lower charge level than when you started. It takes gas to bring that back up. The flip side of this is that having the car run the engine for the first few minutes is not all wasted gas either, as it can charge up the battery during this period, so you can have better gas mileage during the next section of your trip. Besides, the engine has to warm up to operate efficiently, so if you didn't go through the warm up period you would never get good mileage. This applies to all cars, but you probably didn't worry about it because you weren't being told the mileage every minute.

 

If everyone has the same experience regarding #1 and #2, then thats great -- at least then I know that its not a problem with my car.

 

Is a 4 minute "warm-up" period pretty reasonable in 40-50 degree weather among most FFH owners?

[chriscard25]

If everyone has the same experience regarding #1 and #2, then thats great -- at least then I know that its not a problem with my car.

 

Is a 4 minute "warm-up" period pretty reasonable in 40-50 degree weather among most FFH owners?

 

 

Completly depends on driving habits, but in short yes.

[lolder]

The climate control in my 501 package will always turn off instantly. With it off, after 1/2 minute or so of initial ICE run, if you slow the car under 14 mph, it will USUALLY go into EV mode. You can keep it In EV mode with light acceleration until the SOC of the HVB starts the ICE. You have to slow to below 14 mph again to shut off the ICE if the SOC has improved enough. The ICE will not run to warm up the catalytic converter as it usually does when driving in this manner in moderate temperatures (observed down to 40 F.). You can improve your short trip mileage this way if you are able to keep a very light foot on the pedal and keep the climate control off. Cracking the sun-roof and one rear window open gives a good, relatively quiet ventilation. Sometimes my short, 2 mile round-trip downtown doesn't even warm up the ICE to "C".

Hey, if it's real hot or cold, punch "Auto" and forget it. In "Auto" in mild, very humid conditions it also defogs automatically. The rear defogger appears to be completely manual. On my car, that heats the side mirrors too. This is one smart car and you have to work real hard to improve on it's "automatic" performance.

[2HtoHe]

The climate control in my 501 package will always turn off instantly. With it off, after 1/2 minute or so of initial ICE run, if you slow the car under 14 mph, it will USUALLY go into EV mode. You can keep it In EV mode with light acceleration until the SOC of the HVB starts the ICE. You have to slow to below 14 mph again to shut off the ICE if the SOC has improved enough. The ICE will not run to warm up the catalytic converter as it usually does when driving in this manner in moderate temperatures (observed down to 40 F.). You can improve your short trip mileage this way if you are able to keep a very light foot on the pedal and keep the climate control off. Cracking the sun-roof and one rear window open gives a good, relatively quiet ventilation. Sometimes my short, 2 mile round-trip downtown doesn't even warm up the ICE to "C".

Hey, if it's real hot or cold, punch "Auto" and forget it. In "Auto" in mild, very humid conditions it also defogs automatically. The rear defogger appears to be completely manual. On my car, that heats the side mirrors too. This is one smart car and you have to work real hard to improve on it's "automatic" performance.

 

 

Thanks for this reply! This sounds very much like what my experience was over the first few days.

 

Perhaps if the dealer can take care of the climate system problem, everything else will settle out as well.

[oldschool1962]

2H,

 

I've said about all I can in my own posts regarding all things weird. I hope it's just something that passes for you. Regardless of what happens, make sure you start a log by emailing things to your sales person and Service Manager. Keep after them and don't take .....we haven't heard of any issues.....from them at all. All the shops in Ford are tied by one central database now and they can't hide behind that much longer.....especially with forums like this out there. There is more information at our fingertips than ever before in history and it doesn't take a computer genius to find it.....I'm living proof of that.

 

Good luck and I might suggest....take your time and read through all of the topics surrounding weird things and bring it to the proper peoples attention.

 

Other wise........ this might be you

Edited March 14, 2010 by oldschool1962

[2HtoHe]

2H,

 

I've said about all I can in my own posts regarding all things weird. I hope it's just something that passes for you. Regardless of what happens, make sure you start a log by emailing things to your sales person and Service Manager. Keep after them and don't take .....we haven't heard of any issues.....from them at all. All the shops in Ford are tied by one central database now and they can't hide behind that much longer.....especially with forums like this out there. There is more information at our fingertips than ever before in history and it doesn't take a computer genius to find it.....I'm living proof of that.

 

Good luck and I might suggest....take your time and read through all of the topics surrounding weird things and bring it to the proper peoples attention.

 

Other wise........ this might be you

 

Thanks -- I've read through your thread (mostly) and I feel for you. I hope they get that all figured out soon!

[2HtoHe]

I have an interesting update from today.

 

When I started the car this morning the climate fan problem magically disappeared, and the other issues all seemed to go away as well.

 

On my first two trips (5 mins, ~ 2mi back and forth) the regenerative braking still did not work, but nevertheless I was able to get decent mileage even on short trips -- about 37 there and 35 back. Thats reasonable for a cold engine and a short trip, I think. Much better than the day before, where the same round trip netted 23 there, 17 back (fan going full speed the whole way.) Importantly, the EV mode was available immediately after starting (no wait up time of a half minute nor certainly not 3-4 minutes.)

 

And then I had several errands to run all day, and throughout the day, regenerative braking and EV BOTH worked immediately after starting, even after completely cold starts. Most trips were 3-6 miles in length, and I got the following mileage per trip: 38, 42, 36, 54, 45, 42, 45, 39 -- WAY better.

 

Seems like if the problem with the fan can be fixed permanently, all will be well. For now I am going to wait until the fan problem comes back, and try to get it back to the dealer ASAP.

[lolder]

Here, I believe, are reasons the ICE will run:

 

1) Speed over 45 mph.

2) Power demands above the available EV power

3) Cabin heating demands

4) ICE warm up (Catalytic converter) and system checks

5) Low HVB state of charge(SOC)

6) HVB "conditioning"

7) More ICE operation in "L" (no fuel flow when used for braking)

8) Very high or low outside temperatures to provide heating or cooling of system components

 

Does anybody have any additions or corrections?

 

All of these things apply so it's quite complicated.

I have always seen 4) occur at first start for at least 20 seconds after the vehicle is put in motion. After that to be in EV, you must be below 47 mph, have low power demands within EV capabilities, have no heating/defrosting requirements, an adequate HVB SOC, no HVB conditioning event underway (it's a rare occurrence), have no requirements calling for the ICE in "L" and the temperature must not be very hot or cold.

It appears you may be able to avoid an extended period for 4) if you get below 14 mph and accelerate and operate only in EV until HVB state of charge starts the ICE. You have to again go below 14 mph to get back to EV after the ICE stops. After a few ICE cycles, the EV mode will operate at any speed below 47 mph if the other conditions are still met.

Edited March 15, 2010 by lolder