Yes .......more issues with my FFH

[oldschool1962]

yup!

[akirby]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think oldschool's problem is the same as the dash reset problem. The reset just affects the counters.

[rpreuss]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think oldschool's problem is the same as the dash reset problem. The reset just affects the counters.

 

Absolutely correct. Many of us, me included, have had the "reset problem" which has been discussed quite a bit in this forum.

 

When I brought my FFH in for it's 5000 mile service, I mentioned it. Tech said (as would be expected :banghead: ) that there is nothing about that problem on file, no TSB's etc. But it has been noted on my service order.

[DTJJK96]

Absolutely correct. Many of us, me included, have had the "reset problem" which has been discussed quite a bit in this forum.

 

When I brought my FFH in for it's 5000 mile service, I mentioned it. Tech said (as would be expected :banghead: ) that there is nothing about that problem on file, no TSB's etc. But it has been noted on my service order.

 

 

I'm going to have my wife have them note "reset problem" on the service order when she takes her car in for the brake fix. That way at least there is some record of the problem and the mileage it was reported. Who knows if we might need that information latter.

[oldschool1962]

The dash reset was the start of my issues and started the second day of owning the car. They were infrequent and with no rhyme or reason and it seemed to cascade down hill from there. It started out as the MPG resetting as well as the dash would be changed from one of the four settings to another. The glitch seemed to start simultaneously as well. That looked like an old tube TV when you would flick it off and on real quickly like. Sometimes the screen would have focus issues......either out of or split........ and other times it just would flash off and on in a split second.

 

Maybe none of you will have the issues I have but I think there might be some correlation between the two. But that's just a guess.

[Oman]

My dealer found the TSB mentioning the dash reset problem and told me that the update for the brakes also included the dash fix. On this car they do a "recalibrate" which includes updating the software as a whole and then re-learning the variables for the particular car.

 

Jon

 

 

I'm going to have my wife have them note "reset problem" on the service order when she takes her car in for the brake fix. That way at least there is some record of the problem and the mileage it was reported. Who knows if we might need that information latter.

[lolder]

My dealer found the TSB mentioning the dash reset problem and told me that the update for the brakes also included the dash fix. On this car they do a "recalibrate" which includes updating the software as a whole and then re-learning the variables for the particular car.

 

Jon

Good info Jon!

[oldschool1962]

My dealer found the TSB mentioning the dash reset problem and told me that the update for the brakes also included the dash fix. On this car they do a "recalibrate" which includes updating the software as a whole and then re-learning the variables for the particular car.

 

Jon

 

 

Funny you mention that......I seem to remember that I was told the same thing and that they reprogrammed the IC way back when. I think I even posted something back then too. Obviously since I had the brake reprogram done as well my car should have been well covered. Unfortunately for me........neither of the fixes helped since the video I posted here was shot a week and a half after the brake reprogram was performed.

Edited March 2, 2010 by oldschool1962

[oldschool1962]

For what it's worth....and realizing that I haven't had a good nights sleep in several weeks because of this car.............

 

This whole idea of the data recorder.......I feel.......is going to do nothing but make matters with Ford and us personally worse.

 

To explain the recorder causes you to place too much focus on what is going on. Believe it or not, I don't sit and look for things every second I am behind the wheel. It's the instances when the car acts out of what would be considered a normal characteristic that gets my attention. Things like the IC display, the brakes when I depress them and they grab quickly or take more than normal amount of pedal pressure to stop the car and even when I'm having a bit of fun behind the wheel.......... using the get up and go to get up and go while merging on the Highway or a winding exit ramp or road.......and the torque, pull, feel or what ever you want to call it kinda just flattens out some before even reaching the speed limit.

 

Anyhow I find myself doing nothing but asking myself.....do I press the button now? Was that something? Oh crap....I should have pressed the button. I don't know which end is up with this frickin thing. But I also guess that plays right into Fords hands.

 

If I press the button and fill up the recorder before anything actually happens, then they can say well we just couldn't diagnose the issue and it's got to be you (me). You're just not happy with the car. Even the video comes into question.

 

I guess why I got this impression in the first place was because of a couple things said while talking to them the other day. It was almost like the Service Manager backed off a bit when I mentioned to him something about how they were able to recreate the issues and have the video and Ford was still disregarding things. It was almost like he was going to take the stance that no code no issue was what Ford was saying had to done.

 

Maybe it's just nerves and the fact that this car has occupied every waking moment of my life for the last few weeks but it wouldn't be the first time that people have been ordered to roll over and sweep an issue under the carpet.

 

I probably shouldn't say it here but it's not like we'll be able to keep it a secret when the time comes but........contacted 4 Lemon Lawyers here in the Commonwealth and 2 have flat out refused to take the case. I got the

"Unfortunately, although you may have a viable claim, I will be unable to assist you in this matter.

letter. The other two have just ignored my inquiries into what they thought. Ain't the whole flucking system grand????????

 

Contacted a local investigative journalist here in Richmond tonight. We'll see what he has to say. Well, we still have the BBB claim as well as the NHTSA complaint. If there ever was a time for heeding the slogan....Buyer Beware.....it's now.

 

Maybe the FFH is a great car and I just got a fluke of product on but with how things are going for me....the while line might as well be junk since no one will stand up and say enough is enough....time to replace the car.

 

For peace of mind....the data recorder goes back tomorrow and.................apologies for the over-exaggeration here but.....I hope the car doesn't kill us. I will try one last time to make some insistence's or demands but as I've found out to date.....that doesn't work and we're in no position to add a rental car for how ever long it takes for Ford to..................................... I still can't understand why nothing could be determined through the video I provided. If something was.....no one is telling me anything.

Edited March 2, 2010 by oldschool1962

[seamusbleu]

...

Anyhow I find myself doing nothing but asking myself.....do I press the button now? Was that something? Oh crap....I should have pressed the button. I don't know which end is up with this frickin thing. But I also guess that plays right into Fords hands.

...

/quote]

Has the problem occurred since you've had the recorder connected? Have you been able to "capture" the problem in progress?

[oldschool1962]

Has the problem occurred since you've had the recorder connected? Have you been able to "capture" the problem in progress?

 

I have much more to report than just this but for no....and until I get my thoughts in order.....I did. Unfortunately the tech is looking at it like a non event.

 

To explain.........

 

This morning....... purely out of frustration....... I made a corporate decision and got off the fence about how the car was acting. So I hit the button the last 2 times. All of the data was consistent until we got to the fourth snap-shot. Basically what had happened was after driving for at least 30 minutes, the regen Icon did not appear in city traffic when I applied the brakes. It's a 50/50 crap shoot between overly touchy brakes or long on the pedal on what symptoms the system will now exhibit when this happens but the brakes were acting up. When the Tech downloaded the data he noticed that the brake light module was on but the pedal module showed the brakes were off. He felt it was because I did not depress hard enough on the brake to get it to register things to register and that at the split second I let off the brake pedal the car was ready to go into regen but didn't This scrubbing 5mph off my speed. It's hard to understand why because I did step on the brakes. Like I said....He noticed a 5mph drop with-in a 3sec span of data and said it was from coasting and what I just explained. There is no way that is possible and I tried it just to see.....I was correct. You can't scrub of a full 5pmh in the time logged in with just coasting and the regen getting ready to come on. The regen, as far as I'm concerned did not come on and it was all hydraulic at that point. By the way I went from 37 down to 32 so I was far above the 10mph point for no regen.

 

I understood what he was saying...that the regen will not always come on.....but I don't agree.

The letter I got from Ford sites that my system issues caused too much hydraulic brake when only regen was required. I experienced this long before I received and letter or knew what the issue was. So it's not "in my mind". I just drove the car about 90 miles to run some errands. Out of the 90 miles driven and countless times I applied the brake......I noticed that twice the regen did not work. Both times the car had been drive for more than 20 minutes at a time and both times the brakes acted wrong. I would say the characteristic was what was happening the couple hundred times I hit the brake and the flaw was what happened twice? I don't know anymore.

 

As I figured, the data did produce info but it was explained away. At least it produced something out of the ordinary.....but because Ford can't explain a system glitch....it is called normal. SOSDD They swear that the regen will not just work sometimes.....even though the battery is low or what ever they can think up at the time. I am very sceptical of this and it's mainly because there is too much conflicting info between the reviews, the way a hybrid system is meant to perform, the sales pitch, the comercials and even the countless online reviews I have looked at. They all tout how well the car recycles energy from the braking system and how efficiently and consistantly it does it. No one says..........we built these regenerative brakes to work only part of the time or whenever the computer feels they need to. Then what benefit is there to having them and why do they change the braking characteristics of the vehicle when it happens. How can I get a feel for how to stop the vehicle when there is a chance that when I go to use the brakes....they'll either be touchy or loose?!?! It's not like a panic stop where you're going to have the full benefit of every system of the vehicle to stop you. Sounds like a rearend collision is going to happen one way or another.

 

I'm really scattered on things right now and have a great deal of things rolling around my head. Since this topic and all my posts serve as a log of events as well as a chance to vent and learn some things while sharing info.......I'd like to collect those thoughts before continuing.

Thanks for understanding.

Edited March 2, 2010 by oldschool1962

[DTJJK96]

My dealer found the TSB mentioning the dash reset problem and told me that the update for the brakes also included the dash fix. On this car they do a "recalibrate" which includes updating the software as a whole and then re-learning the variables for the particular car.

 

Jon

 

Jon,

Thanks for the reply. Do you happen to know what the TSB number is?

[probowler]

Wow, it sounds like at one point you have some CRAZY issues, like the car dying?? Hate to say it but it sorta sucks those issues won't reoccur so you can record them and get this ordeal over with.

[Oman]

I checked my paperwork (which is about 6 pages long). It is not on there. My subscription ran out on the Ford service site so I can't look it up. They do have a 72 hour access account option which is cheap. You can look up a ton of stuff and save it off.

 

Jon

 

 

Jon,

Thanks for the reply. Do you happen to know what the TSB number is?

[Fuze-ion]

Any update? Have you been back to the Dealer again?

[oldschool1962]

Any update? Have you been back to the Dealer again?

 

Not wanting to sound overly dramatic over things but ........ Had a panic attack about 3am over things and.....well......I am kind of trying to ignore things for a bit. I will briefly state that I met with a District Engineer from either Virginia Beach or DC yesterday. I've mentioned in other posts about the inconsistency of things and that there will be periods where the car will act right for a couple of days or weeks at a time either for no reason or just after a download of codes was tried......well the Engineer tried to download codes yesterday....of course he found none......... and the car was almost flawless during his 75 minute test drive. The Service Manager and I rode with and I did notice a glitch in the HEV screen. There are times while the car is being driven......where the green outline on the battery and the battery icon itself and or the wheels and the associated icon will completely disappear. Simultaneously or separately. The battery is far more often but both are at the most curious times........ either accelerating, coasting or braking..... and the IC shows a power, charge or discharge it it's appropriate gauge or meter.

 

Noticed that mileage went from 37 just before the download to now 43. Even though the weather has been nice I've been limited primarily to morning use where the weather is cold and consistent with weeks past. No issues have been experienced with brakes or IC for now but like I said above and have said before........this is a characteristic of the issues.

 

I'm not sure what is happening and have no read on anything. I don't even know if they are looking at the video or have seen it. As far anything I'm sure of......the only folks that have seen the video have done so from the links here, the Service Manager and Service Tech. But I'm only guessing and could be mistaken.

 

I was told someone would be in contact in the near future and that the Engineer I met yesterday was going to bring all his info back to his group to "discuss" things. I'm gonna leave that one alone from here on out or until they come back and say they don't think there is an issue. I hope I am shocked and they find a way to report something but I'm betting on the status quo.....no codes, no issues.

 

Catch ya'll later......it's "Lost" Night so........see ya!

 

 

Thanks again for asking though. Seems like the day wasn't complete without some post here..........Maybe someday I can have a whole slew of incomplete days or post something positive and more in line with my natural demeanor

[oldschool1962]

Thought this would be more in-tune to this topic so I brought it over from another.

As an update on things......I received a call from the Service Manager today. He asked me to bring the FFHL into the shop for a few tests the engineers asked him to run. I did ask if they said anything else and he replied that they're pretty tight lipped about things without sharing any thoughts or info and only asked him to run the tests.

 

I have yet to tell him about the "buck and thud" so.....maybe an email or maybe even a service appt through my Ford page after this will do it.

 

 

lrymal, on 09 March 2010 - 10:58 AM, said:

 

Yeah.... this car is a mystery in some ways. The major engineering accomplishments are spot-on, nearly perfect. Just the little simple stuff that wasn't included....

Major engineering accomplishments???????? Have you been following my posts? Maybe for you but not in my case.

 

Here's a hijack of my own. Has anyone experienced a stumble or lope in the vehicle when it is moving at 45-47mph? It's kinda like the car can't decide whether to use EV or the ICE. it is very noticeable and abrupt and is something that you can't miss. It happened when I was driving in an area where the speed limit was 45 and the road is relatively flat for about 2 miles. Wasn't trying to keep it in ev mode just driving the car but the pressure on the pedal was at a point where the car started to buck......yeah....that's the description I was grasping for.....buck!

 

Another thing is......

Anyone experiencing a sort of thud feel through the brake pedal/steering wheel when stepping on the brake over 35mph. Both don't happen all the time but every once in a while.....for now

 

These are two symptoms in my FFHL that just started tonight.

 

 

Edit......

There was one other interesting thing I remember from my meeting on Monday....it wsas the enginners reation when I told him about the "Passenger Airbag Off" light coming on while my wife was sitting in the seat.....

He first asked hown much she weighed. Enough to not have the light come on........and then asked how she was sitting in the seat. Normally and that every car we have owned that had this tech tied to the airbag we have not had this happen. And this is what really got me..........he mentioned that with this ne sensor they are using if the occupant does not sit squareky in the seat.....the airbag will turn off no matter how much they weigh. It has something to do withn kids sitting in the seat......but I understand that.....if it were a child sitting in the seat which there wouldn't be in the first place......but my big worry is what if we are in a serious wreck? The airbag may or may not deploy? what about the side and side curtain? Aren't those controlled by the same switch? Gives new meaning to the term "Suicide seat"

 

Just another thing I am curious to see what everyone else thinks and what happens when the unthinkable happens for some unfortunate passanger of you'rs out there becaus of an overly sensitive switch.

 

Gotta wonder if there are any Lawyers for Ford that left with over 6000 documents in their hands too. I'm shocked that Toyota did what they did but American companies have been concealing things for years........so no one can say it isn't possible?

Edited March 11, 2010 by oldschool1962

[oldschool1962]

Just keeping the log going here........

 

Took the car in yesterday for some tests. The engineers wanted to have the Data recorder reinstalled and then the Service Manager drive the vehicle. He did so and I actually accompanied him to see what was happeneing. As I mentioned before the car hasn't been very problematic the last couple days but that can change at a moments notice.

 

The Service manager did three test drives of the car to "recreate" issues that I have presented or they have experienced in recent visits.

 

First test drive was black box only radio off......yes that was specifically the radio off. We made about a 25 mile run and returned to the dealership.

 

The car thne had to start the second test. The new battery was removed and the original one was put back in the car........ I mentioned they replaced the battery out of frustration a couple posts ago......Anyhow they were to let the car sit for at least 20 minutes in Acc mode with the radio on. Then we were to drive the car again, black box in place and radio on....yes that's radio on this time........ and see what happened. About 20 miles for this drive.

 

Third test started again when we arrived back and the radio was to have been run in the Acc mode for at least 20 minutes. Ended up at 35 minutes due to some duties the Service Manager had to perform and took the car out again ofor about a 290 mile drive.

 

No issues to report although anything regarding the IC, blis, cross traffic, air-bag or whatever the heck else happened.....malfunction. The brakes were normal as they have been for the last couple day but we did notice the car strated to hold a much higher than told or explained level of charge. It maintained probably a leve between the area just above the icon battery terminals to just below the H mark. Something that the Service Manager commented as being "odd" based on all the information had been given to date.

 

Car is back at the dealer today and he is waiting for the Engineers to tell him what tests to perform next.

 

I certainly have my doubts about the tests..........Like reinstalling the removed 12v battery....Like it has anything to do with the operation of the vehicle once the Key has turned the car on and is driven.....that's the HV battery and or electrical system from that point until the car has been turned off....the 12v is just along for the ride.....or at least that was what I have been told to this point.

 

It's almost like they're taking wild swings at any and everything. I don't blame the Engineers for trying but certainly they should have a better set or diagnosing ideas than this.

 

It is raining today so if water is playing a key to the issues then things will happen. If cold did.....we'll have to wait for the next cold snap.......next year. If it's a combination of both.....again a wait.

 

Maybe it seems like I'm swinging wildly at ideas but I don't have a Degree in this stuff nor did I design it. .

[lolder]

The 12 v battery runs all the computers (with DC to DC converter).

[oldschool1962]

The 12 v battery runs all the computers (with DC to DC converter).

 

The computers run on a 12v system is how it was explained to me and that everything runs off the electrical system or HV battery during operation with voltage regulators and converters.

 

Is this accurate or have I been misinformed?

 

I've never heard of a system, other than those in racing, that utilize the battery without some sort of electrical system like an alternator to maintain operation but the hybrids are definitely not what I'm accustomed to

 

 

Edit.......Just got a call from the Dealership. They sent the Engineer from Moday back in and he revied the video. Said that he didn't know where to start since there are 8 modules that feed the Instrument cluster. He als said they can' keep my car for a huge period of time and asked if I might want to ride around with a VDR for as long as it took for the system to recreate the issues. The way I guess it it took 5 months and 6300 miles for it to happen the first time. Who thinks it will be sooner the next time? My luck we'll have that thing in the car for 6 months.

 

Why can't they just end to ordeal and either replace the car or replace all 8 modules?!?!?! But then again.....what if it's a short somewhere else and it never ends. Do I have to ride around with a VDR until I trade to POS in? And I still have doubts about what it will report......no codes have been presen in the system so far so why would the VDR with is just another module of sorts going to be able to tell that the system responsible didn't?

Edited March 12, 2010 by oldschool1962

[lolder]

The DC to DC converter that charges the 12 v battery from the HVB takes the place of the alternator. The HVB makes the car MOVE, the 12 v system makes the car THINK.

[Oman]

The VDR records the traffic on the communication bus. They can replay that traffic and analyze it to see why the car is going haywire. The chances are very good that if the VDR button is pressed during and event they will see at least the communication problems and can analyze it from there. So the car is not having the problems any longer?

 

Jon

 

 

The computers run on a 12v system is how it was explained to me and that everything runs off the electrical system or HV battery during operation with voltage regulators and converters.

 

Is this accurate or have I been misinformed?

 

I've never heard of a system, other than those in racing, that utilize the battery without some sort of electrical system like an alternator to maintain operation but the hybrids are definitely not what I'm accustomed to

 

 

Edit.......Just got a call from the Dealership. They sent the Engineer from Moday back in and he revied the video. Said that he didn't know where to start since there are 8 modules that feed the Instrument cluster. He als said they can' keep my car for a huge period of time and asked if I might want to ride around with a VDR for as long as it took for the system to recreate the issues. The way I guess it it took 5 months and 6300 miles for it to happen the first time. Who thinks it will be sooner the next time? My luck we'll have that thing in the car for 6 months.

 

Why can't they just end to ordeal and either replace the car or replace all 8 modules?!?!?! But then again.....what if it's a short somewhere else and it never ends. Do I have to ride around with a VDR until I trade to POS in? And I still have doubts about what it will report......no codes have been presen in the system so far so why would the VDR with is just another module of sorts going to be able to tell that the system responsible didn't?

[oldschool1962]

The DC to DC converter that charges the 12 v battery from the HVB takes the place of the alternator. The HVB makes the car MOVE, the 12 v system makes the car THINK.

 

Part one......So....does that mean that all of the 12v volt systems draw power from the battery while driving or do they pull power from the electrical system.

 

My mind pictures that the system is already providing power and it would seem to me that the DC to DC converters would be supplying the 12v power not the battery.

 

The battery doesn't make an efficient power source given it's size and rate of power depleation. Then the system has to keep power flowing to the battery at an enormous rate and wouldn't that cause early battery failure?

 

Even in racing after even one run down a 1/4mile track the battery needs to be fully recharged and that's from a 6 second run with a much larger more powerful battery.

 

Part two

 

Jon, The instrument cluster stopped malfunctioning on the way to the dealer that Monday morning when the car cut off. The screen has shown glitches since then but they have been about the same infrequency as when we first bought the car. My car is home now I'll post more later if I know more.

[lordyourjosh]

Part one......So....does that mean that all of the 12v volt systems draw power from the battery while driving or do they pull power from the electrical system.

 

My mind pictures that the system is already providing power and it would seem to me that the DC to DC converters would be supplying the 12v power not the battery.

 

The battery doesn't make an efficient power source given it's size and rate of power depleation. Then the system has to keep power flowing to the battery at an enormous rate and wouldn't that cause early battery failure?

 

Even in racing after even one run down a 1/4mile track the battery needs to be fully recharged and that's from a 6 second run with a much larger more powerful battery.

 

Everything is powered by the "traditional" charging system like on another car: battery, alternator, etc. Everything draws from the battery all of the time, though it's a bit more complex than that since, as you said you are constantly providing charge to the battery via the dc converter, when the system is running. Still, if the battery is somehow bad, it's going to cause problems in the system as it helps absorb momentary spikes in power draw that are much shorter than 6 seconds. Computers are especially picky about having consistent power.

[bbf2530]

 

 

Why can't they just end to ordeal and either replace the car or replace all 8 modules?!?!?! But then again.....what if it's a short somewhere else and it never ends. Do I have to ride around with a VDR until I trade to POS in?

 

Hi oldschool. :D This reply only concerns the statement of yours I quoted above: If you no longer wish to let Ford try to correct the issues your vehicle is experiencing and you want to begin the process of ending "the ordeal", then you need to read your Warranty Guide and follow the instructions to begin the BBB "AutoLine" Arbitration Process, or take it upon yourself to begin Lemon Law proceedings. This has been mentioned several times on these forums and others.

 

Generally, automakers do not normally offer up buybacks or trades on their own. Yes, there are always exceptions, but they are few and you can grow old waiting for the offer. We are all handed Warranty Guides when we purchase new, and to protect our rights it is up to us to read it and follow the instructions. Otherwise, the automaker will simply attempt to repair the vehicle as long as there is an ongoing problem and you allow it to continue. That is their responsibility as per the Manufacturers Warranty. While we might like things to operate differently in an ideal world, that is the reality of the situation.

 

So in this case you have three main choices:

1) Follow the Warranty Guide directions to step things up to the next level towards arbitration/buyback/trade.

2) Continue to let the Dealer/Ford correct the issues.

3) Live with the issues.

 

If you can not find your Warranty Guide, you can download a PDF version here: LINK: Owner Guides. Fill in the drop downs and click "submit". Then click on "Warranty Guide".

 

Whatever choice you make, you will need to be the one to take the initiative of deciding and acting.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited March 12, 2010 by bbf2530