What's your long term fuel economy

[Oman]

Speaking of wind - this will really annoy some folks here on the board... On the Fusion a at 55MPH a 20MPH headwind is *less* costly to drag/mileage than a 20MPH crosswind. Got a chance to talk to a Ford Aero engineer (funny what happens when you work at a place that does data collection work for large corporations).

 

As for the heater I have little difference in the cold ( < 10 degrees F) between having the heat on or off. The computer monitors the exhaust system temperature and starts the ICE to keep it hot. Usually in the Winter I keep my heat down around 60 degrees because I have a Winter coat on but I thought I would play a bit with it.

 

The other consideration is that the battery is run at cabin temperature. The ability for the battery to take a charge is directly related to the cell temperature. When you suffer in the cold the battery won't charge well and you are just wasting juice.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

 

These are very good comments regarding getting the best out of it you can given the conditions. It has turned cold in many places and I find the winds are now a far greater factor than in summer. It seems in my commute now I fight headwinds both directions!! However when the winds are with you it sure does make a big difference. My mileage is dropping just like everyone predicted to about 39 now from a high of 42 in the summer. These are the computer's number but I think it still reflects the decline which will likely continue as the weather turns consistenly colder. Some have said MPG improves with miles on car but I have about 3800 now and anything like that has probably happened already in my case.

 

I find myself leaving the heat off when bearable which in some cases keeps the engine from running as much to get it warm. It's interesting to show people how I can simply hit the Auto HVAC button and make the engine start! It has been quite obvious lately with sleet and rain coming down putting extra slush on the road that invariably mileage tanks. Combine that with this recent storm winds and my mileage has dropped even more rapidly.

 

I read many people doing the standard math after fillup to calculate mileage so I think I might start that and see for myself any delta to the vehicle's calculation.

[lolder]

There are some figures out that show a Prius suffers a 10 mpg loss (53 to 43) with a wind change from 8 mph tailwind to 8 mph headwind. If that headwind is off the nose, the loss is worse. Some are even proposing that all-wheel steering can be used to crab a car a few degrees on the road to keep the relative wind vector directly on the nose. That'l be a sight to see! In winter the air is denser and produces more drag and the ICE has to burn more fuel to keep us and it warm. Wet roads are the worst! I think that's about a 10 mpg hit. Hey, it's quiet and smooth riding. Turn up the Sirius and heat and enjoy it. The sun will start coming back north shortly.

 

Lee

[goody1926]

Speaking of wind - this will really annoy some folks here on the board... On the Fusion a at 55MPH a 20MPH headwind is *less* costly to drag/mileage than a 20MPH crosswind. Got a chance to talk to a Ford Aero engineer (funny what happens when you work at a place that does data collection work for large corporations).

 

As for the heater I have little difference in the cold ( < 10 degrees F) between having the heat on or off. The computer monitors the exhaust system temperature and starts the ICE to keep it hot. Usually in the Winter I keep my heat down around 60 degrees because I have a Winter coat on but I thought I would play a bit with it.

 

The other consideration is that the battery is run at cabin temperature. The ability for the battery to take a charge is directly related to the cell temperature. When you suffer in the cold the battery won't charge well and you are just wasting juice.

 

Jon

 

 

I should have mentioned that temps of around 40F is where I just leave the heat off. I too noticed that at much colder temps the engine starts regardless. I have not looked for this in the manual yet but I have noticed also that regen braking seems impacted by temp probably like you said based upon the battery temp.

[lolder]

Think you've got cold weather problems? Read this about Canadian Prius owners.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/73393-extreme-cold-weather-performance.html

 

Lee

[Zacher]

Think you've got cold weather problems? Read this about Canadian Prius owners.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/73393-extreme-cold-weather-performance.html

 

Lee

 

Well I am witness, my dash said -31C two nights ago, (-43C) with the windchill. Heater set to 23C, warmed up enough that after 15 min at 90km/h (too icy to go any faster on highway) that I hit EV mode at first red light... impressive. This car still impresses me every day.

 

Oh and Lee, don't worry, 30 years of living and 14years of driving in this weather, we know to check our tire pressure. heh it's the square wheel driving that will really get ya! You canadians know what I'm talkin about!

[lolder]

Here are some short distance (3 miles) mpg figures, relatively level road, 36 psi tire pr., sea level, no wind, 85 deg. F.

70 mph AC on: 35.0 ICE

60 mph AC on: 41.8 ICE

60 mph AC off: 42.8 ICE

50 mph AC off: 49.2 ICE

40 mph AC off: 56.0 ICE/EV

30 mph AC off: 63.6 ICE/EV

30 mph AC on: 58.0 ICE/EV

 

This is hard to measure. Small differences above and below the average battery charge take several miles to return to average and affect the mileage several mpg. These readings were taken when it appeared these effects were at a minimum. Runs were done in both directions and differences were small; .1 to 2.4 mpg except at 30 mph when the difference was 4.9 mpg (61.6 v. 66.5). Small variations of when EV starts and ends make big differences. The gph to run the AC at 60 mph computes to .03335. At 30 mph it's .0445. The experimental error is almost the magnitude of this difference but I have observed slightly higher accessory AC loads at slower speeds. Perhaps higher speeds cool the vehicles outer surface more. Sun load was very high on a perfectly clear day. The 70 mph AC on run was with a still declining accessory AC load. On slightly smoother roads and lower stable AC loads I've seen 38-39mpg. If you plot these points on a graph, the data showing decreased energy requirements down through the EV transition speed, appears pretty consistent.

 

Lee

[lolder]

Looking at the above data some more, it appears the ICE is hardly ever run at less than about 1 gph. That would be about 12-15 hp or about 10% of rated power. The rpm range from 30 mph to 60 mph was only from about 1200 rpm to 1500 rpm. It's hard to read the RPM precisely on the gauge. The trick they're trying to do is to run the ICE at a high % of the power AVAILABLE at a given RPM. The computer looks at the brake horsepower you are calling for with your accelerator pedal and vehicle conditions and decides if it is efficient to run the ICE. It then runs it at the lowest rpm and high torque setting that will yield that power. It's been my experience that steady accelerator pressure is important. That makes it easier for the computer but it is still pretty fast reacting. Varying the pedal constantly to keep a car length behind in traffic is the worst. Sometimes you can't help it but try to avoid it. The 6 and 8 speed automatics are an attempt to approach the eCVT efficiencies. In fact their efficiencies are better in some places because the involvement of the EV components in the management of the torque and transmission has some losses. The gears in the automatics have little loss. The automatics have torque converter losses and I think most of them lock it out a lot now. I don't think the Atkinson ICE is used in any non hybrids yet as it has deficiencies in that application; less power/weight, slow acceleration response. I think most of us have bought much more technology than we thought we had.

 

Lee

[akirby]

Are you guys driving or trying to get high score in a video game?

[ace43]

Are you guys driving or trying to get high score in a video game?

 

I think the correct answer is "both". I find the FFH to be quite a good driver and a fun challenge in terms of achieving high mileage as well. So we can have our cake and eat it too.

[oldschool1962]

Since I last reported my MPG.....it has tanked. First off the on-board system reported 36.8 long-term. I normally reset all of the numbers on the trip and the long-term through the info settings when I fill up. Tiday I filled up and decided to run manual numbers. I'm not perfect about things but I do try to fill the vehicle the same way each time and as far as my driving habits or routes????? Let's just say they are very conservative and quite predictable. Anyhow for 283.6 miles it took 8.3 gallons and calculated out a mpg of 33.6. Well off the pace of the 41 I was enjoying right after they reprogrammed the IC.....(problems explained in the "Something Weird" topic)

[lolder]

It could be colder weather, wet roads, winds, lower tire pressure. By the way, I hope everybody knows to let the fuel pump nozzle shut off automatically and not give it any extra squirts. It apparently often overflows onto the ground.

 

Lee

[oldschool1962]

Yeah.....and if I load the trunk up with coconut laden sparrows............

 

The week after they reprogrammed the IC......the first week of 41mpg.......we had 12.6 inches of rain during three days of use so the rain thing isn't as much a factor as you would think. We're in South central VA and basically on the coastal plains....meaning we go from 20-111ft (at our door) above sea-level with-in 20 miles so....... it's not too hilly....at all. Speed limits are 25 to 60 with the majority of our driving....97%.... done between 25 and 45mph. As far as cold goes.....been pretty consistant and for all practicle purposes equal from week to week with the warm and cold days. Tire pressure is the same and............It's not like I haven't logged some miles and awarenesses under my belt the last 3 plus decades of driving some form or another of motorized vehicles. I guess my point was that I have seen the same............ 33.6 or better....... MPG's out of my 1976 Corolla, 1981 Accord, 1984 EXP, 1987 Accord, 1990 Civic, 1992 Protege, 1996 Civic and our recent 2005 Accord. Heck my 1997 4cyl and 1998 3.0 Rangers got almost 30mpg with my driving style. Just so you know 5 of the mentioned vehicles were driven in the Chicago, IL and Rochester, NY areas where weather can be a real peach. The only vehicle I have ever owned where stock in the oil compaies would have been a plus was a 1966 Mustang with a 1969 351W dual quad motor in it. I think my best mpg was 4 but I worked at a service station and got my gas on the cheap. But then again full price was only .53 a gallon at the time :doh:

[lolder]

I live in Florida and I sympathize with you northerners. I still own a 2004 Toyota Avalon that is now our second car. It is a similar sized car though it just breaks the full size car threshold. It has a 3.0 liter, 210 hp ICE 4 speed auto with hi speed lock up. It's about 300 lbs. lighter than the FFH. It's EPA is 21C/29H. It's not as quiet as the FFH but is smoother over paving ridges. It's a very nice car. My interstate-speed mileage on this car is 28 mpg, very close to the EPA rating. My in town mileage was 21, exactly the same. My FFH is getting 37H and 40C mpg with a long term of 39. That's a pretty close apples to apples comparison. The Avalon long term was about 22 with little high speed driving. My FFH long term is closer to the city rating. The buying guides say the advantages of a hybrid diminish with more high speed driving and colder locations. That is absolutely true. Real estate down here is really cheap now if you want a mpg improvement. Gas taxes are high though averaging about $.68 state, county and federal. I had a 95 Grand Marquis that went with the C4C. When it was my first car, it would get 27 mpg on the interstate at 95 degree Temp. When the temp. dropped to 90 in the late afternoon, the mpg dropped to 25. That car got 16 mpg around town. There's an article on a Prius Palm Mileage Simulator at: http://privatenrg.com/. Peruse it for the effect of many variables. You can scale the numbers up or down about 20% for the FFH. Look what temperatures, rain and wind do to a Prius. By the way, the PHEV Prius will only save you a total of $.25 (gas: $.70-- electric: $.45) the first 13 miles in EV mode. And that's with no road tax on the electricity.

Does anybody know the FFH NiMH charge/discharge efficiency?

 

Lee

[str1der]

I wish I knew what was wrong with mine. I've been driving for a month, 1200 miles, with outside temps from 25-60. Live in Northern Ky. with a mixture of hills and flats, highways and city. My longterm so far is barely 31. I haven't been able to get it above that. I'm not going crazy with hypermiling but have been conscious of trying to keep the real time as high as I can. I don't understand why I'm not even close to you guys.

[lolder]

There's probably nothing "wrong" with it. A trouble code would appear if it were. Short trips, cold, wet, hilly, windy, AC use driving all give hits to mpg. Reset your long term mpg. There are 5 different mpg figures. The long term fuel economy is reset by: Setup/Reset/Long Term Fuel Econ/Reset. The Avg. MPG on left INFO screen is reset by RESET. The trip summary display on the right is displayed on each shutdown. The instantaneous MPG gauge and the bar graph on right are not re-set-able. They are all different and independent. My wife sometimes comes home from short trips with 33 mpg showing on the shutdown screen (previous trip summary can be retrieved by turning car on, not start, and then off). She accelerates harder, brakes harder and later, pulses the accelerator a lot and generally doesn't pay much attention to EV mode or economy. She's getting better but it's not important to her. I have a relative with a Prius and he says it takes him a week of light foot driving to make up for one day of his wife's driving. My apologies to all you ladies that do well. Individual cars may have problems but that's probably unusual. Forums like this are not bell curve samples and problems and pleasant surprises tend to dominate. Just remember at 50 mph and 50 mpg, that's 1 gph. Vary that .1 gal and that's +/- 5 mpg. It has been mentioned here that mileage improves after several thousand miles. I can't think of any technical reason for that to be true. There hasn't been any beak-ins needed for years. The NiMH battery may need only 5-7 cycles to reach full performance. I think the effect that was seen was for two things: 1)the car was first delivered in the US in spring and the warming weather helped and; 2)your driving habits improve. The FFH has the best instructional gauges. The Prius has an Econo mode that tends to help but it makes the car feel dead unless you floor it. When you bought your last new non-hybrid in the summer, how many worried about the declining economy in the fall? My car here in Florida has almost 6000 miles on it and I know pretty much now which hypermiling techniques are worth it and which are not. My mileage has gone up a couple because of less AC use. I always used to drive my Avalon around with the climate control on auto. Not the FFH; it brings out latent obsessive/compulsive behavior.

 

Lee

[ace43]

Good point about the car bringing out latent obsessive compulsive behavior, not that that would apply to me or anything. I have averaged 38 mpg by working hard at it all the time, maximizing every "hypermiling" technique I can think of. If I drove it like I used to drive my cars, I wouldn't be surprised to see an average of 31. It's not a chore to drive that way, except maybe for those behind me, it's a challenge.

Edited December 18, 2009 by ace43

[ICEY]

Since I last reported my MPG.....it has tanked. First off the on-board system reported 36.8 long-term. I normally reset all of the numbers on the trip and the long-term through the info settings when I fill up. Tiday I filled up and decided to run manual numbers. I'm not perfect about things but I do try to fill the vehicle the same way each time and as far as my driving habits or routes????? Let's just say they are very conservative and quite predictable. Anyhow for 283.6 miles it took 8.3 gallons and calculated out a mpg of 33.6. Well off the pace of the 41 I was enjoying right after they reprogrammed the IC.....(problems explained in the "Something Weird" topic)

 

 

Well, I do the same thing when getting gas....miles divided by gallons but I do come pretty close to the mpg readout on the dash. Had the veh. since May (6600 miles thus far) and got the overall mpg to 41.7 where it stayed for quite some time. Now with the winter gas here in Calif it has dropped to 40.8 Ok, still good but it is not as cold as where some of you live so am thinking that it is just gas formula related. Because like everyone here my driving habits did not really change.

 

And like you I am also in "something weird" and trying to keep up with that info as I posted a similar event. To the dealer this week for oil and to again talk about the weird stuff.

 

Steve

[cbislander]

I have had my Fusion Hybrid since May and my fuel economy was around 5.7 litres/100km in the summer.

 

When you switch the gauges to MPG, you are using the US Gallon, not the Imperial Gallon. Add 20% to your figure to get the proper MPG in Canada. It should be 40 MPG, not the 61 MPG City/ 54 MPG Hwy that they advertise.

 

The cold weather has been reducing my fuel economy as well. Along with the winter tires, the EV light may come on when I almost at the end of my 4km drive to work. The means the ICE has been working the whole time with poorer results. To make matters worse, my teenage son uses my car and he sometimes has the AC on for no reason. I have found that the AC and heating system makes the ICE stay engaged. I do not see why this should happen for the heating system. The EV system should be able to run the heater, but it usually does not. My current average is 6.8 litres/100km. I have over 13,000 km on my car.

 

I am still trying to figure out how to maximize the EV use. Sometimes, my car is going downhill and the battery is almost full yet it is still in ICE mode. There are some areas where the EV does kick in. It usually happens when I am on a fairly level surface with a very slight upward slope. Following the advice that I read somewhere, you apply pressure on the gas like you are pressing on an egg shell.

 

If you know of any other techniques that can improve the fuel economy, please let me know.

 

 

 

Heya,

 

So from reading a few blogs I am hearing that a number of good FFH drivers are getting long term fuel economy averages in the 40MPG range and even higher. I am in Canada and when I switch my gauge to MPG I am getting a measly 33.1 long term currently. I drive as efficiently as I can with a mix of highway and city driving. I have had the odd trip that goes into the mid 40s based on my calculations ( think I did 4.7l / 100 km over a 10km drive once in perfect condidtions) but its been getting worse as the temperature gets lower and after I had it into the dealer for a repair of the electrical system.

 

What kind of numbers are others getting out there? I saw in another thread that comparing US MPG versus Canadian MPG isn't a proper comparison but does that mean that the calculations in the car itself when I switch to "English" mode of Units as its called in the display?

 

I'm basically trying to figure out if I may have a car that needs some tuning at the dealership or if I am just being overly paranoid. I have about 5000 kms on the car so far and I have heard some talk that after 5000 Miles you get better MPG?

 

Thoughts and what are you getting for a number?

[lolder]

I'm one that's getting good mileage in Florida. The other day we had Monsoon rains and winds and temperature at 60 F. I was getting about 30 mpg! When the rain let up it climbed back up and I got about 38 for a trip that usually produces 43 mpg. This was at speeds above the EV range but only 60 F. I doubt there is anything "wrong" with most of your cars. This is the natural result of winter and wet weather. All vehicles take a hit in these conditions. It is just more noticeable in vehicles that are getting 40 mpg and above. Prius's experience the same effects. The Sun has started North again so help is on the way.

 

Lee

[lolder]

At 50 mph and 50 mpg, headlight lowbeams cost you about 1% and highbeams 2%. That's .5 and 1.0 mpg. That's an indication of how little things affect mileage at these low fuel flows.

 

Lee

[acdii]

I used to have a Camry Hybrid, and had a Prius before that, but couldnt swing the FFH, so I got the Sport to replace the POS Camry, but, here is my experience driving hybrids, it doesn't matter who built it, the Ford and Toyota systems drive the same. On the highway the Camry got 43 MPG, my overall lifetime mileage over 34,000 miles and 16 months driving it was 35 MPG, summer average was 38+, winter 33. The Prius with 24K miles and 10 months, 53 summer 44 winter, 65 MPG highway. If I were to have the Fusion Hybrid, I can bet the numbers would be closer to the 44 MPG mark.

 

Cold weather saps power from the batteries, not sure if the Ford uses engine coolant for heat, but the Toyota uses electric for the heaters, which puts a faster drain on the batteries in cold weather, and the ICE rarely shuts down when it was below 30* unless I shut the heater off. It also has to run longer to get the converters up to temperature for emissions, so idling before driving does help a little bit, but isn't really necessary, the converters heat up faster under acceleration. When driving imagine an egg under your foot, and press down as if you don't want to break it once you are up to speed, accelerating to speed is the biggest waste of fuel, and on the Camry I basically gave it about 1/3rd throttle until I reached speed then feathered the pedal to keep it there, and that seemed to gain me the most MPG at anything above 40 MPH. In city traffic, you want to use EV as much as possible, and learning where it kicks in is the trickiest part and can take several hours of driving before you find the sweet spot. You also want to maximize regen as much as possible to keep the charge up on the traction batteries, usually by going at least 5 over the limit and coasting down to just under, and with practice you can do this all on EV. I usually got about 6 to 8 miles in city traffic on EV alone this way.

 

Also one thing that I discovered, mileage goes up after you hit 10,000 miles, I gained about 2 MPG after the clock hit 10k. Use Mobil 1 synthetic for your oil too. I also have a Hyundai Veracruz, and saw a 1 MPG gain using Mobil 1. One other trick is to block off the radiator in cold weather, it helps hold in the heat so the ICE runs less.

[oldschool1962]

Getting an opportunity to drive the FFH in a different situation is definitely teaching me a great deal. We're in Atlanta for the holidays and.........well since the last time I experienced Atlanta traffic the way I did today was 1997........holy sheet!

 

Anyhow after the drive down, we settled into 38-40 for long-term. Could have been better but all of today was traffic and mostly on the top-end of 285. For those of you that know or have experienced Atlanta traffic..........It was a 2hr drive from Clairmont and Briarcliff to P'tree Ind and Pleasanthill! :finger: well??????? the ev mode was a God-send. Never saw the battery hang that long at a full charge before. The mileage could have been better but when we did get on the more freely moving roads......it was like a dodgeball game with the other moving cars so......the accelerator got much more of a work-out than I would have wished for. It was almost like I was drivig that old Mustang I've mentioned here a couple times. :shift: But not even close to being as fun.......I will say that when it has to....the FFH sure can get up and go. We head South the the Jonesboro area tomorrow and then back to the Northside only to head back south for Christmas day :drop: ..........Can't wait to get back to VA! and normal driving again! :headspin: We'll see what kind of numbers we get for the rest of the trip.

Edited December 24, 2009 by oldschool1962

[VonoreTn]

Looks like winter in Tennessee is affecting our FFH just like everyone else. Here is our latest fill-up record....

[lolder]

My fill up figures show the vehicle mpg computer 4% high.

 

Lee

[Noel]

8,500 miles now on my FFH driven in Northern California with a commute from my home at 2,000' to 400' at work. Long term is now 40.4mpg on the readout, about 1.3mpg less by measuring the tank. If I drive just in the valley floor for a 50 mile drive at 55-65mph, I am seeing 43+ even during the recent cooler period. In peak summer I was seeing 43+ including the trip up and down the hill. I am a very conservative driver. So far, quite pleased.

 

What's this about reprogramming the IC?

 

Noel