Engine stutter / vibration

[klatoo]

2 weeks ago my engine started stuttering/vibrating when switching to HV mode...enough where it's very noticeable and if you are in the screen with the tach is runs around 1000-1200 for 5-10 seconds. It does this longer on a cold engine than warm, and this occurs about 70% of the time. You can make the switch to HV happen faster by tapping the brakes some, but that's a little inconvenient to others when traveling 70+ on the interstate.

 

I'm sure this is a engine software issue but taking this to Ford will just be a huge PITA and I'm sure I'll get some BS line about how this is normal...well it's not. The steering wheel shimmies some..not violent, I'm not losing control of the vehicles, but it's enough to know that this isn't normal and different than before.

 

Any advice would be most welcome.

[aschulz261]

Mine has done this since new. It happens when the engine is warm enough to enter EV mode, but not up to full operating temperature. You can see it on the tach, where it shows the engine at near idle for several seconds before it shuts off and you can see it on the EMPOWER screen, where the arrow shows it using electric power, the instant fuel economy showing 60+, but the gauge is white showing the engine is still running.

 

My belief is that it is getting caught in a transition between maps in the software. There is nothing wrong, and there is nothing for Ford to fix. Is there a chance you are noticing it more now as the outside temps are dropping?

[klatoo]

Maybe...but I've had this car for 4 years and I don't remember it being like this.

 

 

It happens when the engine is warm enough to enter EV mode, but not up to full operating temperature.

 

Mine keeps on doing it even after a 30 min drive home from work..that's 15 min surface streets and 15 min 70mph cruise on the interstate...one would think it would be warm enough where this wouldn't be happening the longer you drive but it continues to do so. Guess I'm stuck till spring and warmer weather....

[murphy]

I've had my car for 4.5 years and it happened for the first time last week.

 

I checked the car for DTCs but there were none.

Edited November 15, 2017 by murphy

[lolder]

It's not normal.

[ElectricFan69]

2 weeks ago my engine started stuttering/vibrating when switching to HV mode...enough where it's very noticeable and if you are in the screen with the tach is runs around 1000-1200 for 5-10 seconds. It does this longer on a cold engine than warm, and this occurs about 70% of the time. You can make the switch to HV happen faster by tapping the brakes some, but that's a little inconvenient to others when traveling 70+ on the interstate.

 

I'm sure this is a engine software issue but taking this to Ford will just be a huge PITA and I'm sure I'll get some BS line about how this is normal...well it's not. The steering wheel shimmies some..not violent, I'm not losing control of the vehicles, but it's enough to know that this isn't normal and different than before.

 

Any advice would be most welcome.

What kind of miles on the car?

Symptoms you describe could be caused by plugs that are reaching the end of their 'use by' period - or an injector that's got a bad spray pattern. Connecting to a scan tool to see the operating parameters with the ICE would be a good first step.

[Ram]

Mine has started up with in the last couple thousand miles or so. presntly have over 78xxx.xx miles on clock and I feel it could clear up with new plugs.

[klatoo]

What kind of miles on the car?

Symptoms you describe could be caused by plugs that are reaching the end of their 'use by' period - or an injector that's got a bad spray pattern. Connecting to a scan tool to see the operating parameters with the ICE would be a good first step.

 

I almost have 47K. It's a city car only. Been on 2 road trips total it's whole life..less than 500 miles. Change the oil every 5K because all my Blackstone results show high fuel percentage (3-7%). Other than that, only had a battery cooling fan go bad..and what seems like 487 recalls and that's it.

[lolder]

Misfire or rough running should produce DTCs and dash alerts.

[ElectricFan69]

 

I almost have 47K. It's a city car only. Been on 2 road trips total it's whole life..less than 500 miles. Change the oil every 5K because all my Blackstone results show high fuel percentage (3-7%). Other than that, only had a battery cooling fan go bad..and what seems like 487 recalls and that's it.

Mostly short trips where the ICE never warms up? Fuel in oil implies an injector fault to me - unless you have been ignoring/have a burned out CEL for a misfire.

[klatoo]

Never a check engine light..way to OCD for that. Plus with the 600 recalls on this thing hopefully if one popped up while it was at Ford they would have taken care of it. I'm attaching my Blackstone reports..since the second oil change there has been fuel in the oil. I change every 5K for this reason, still high fuel percentages. There has been fuel in the oil samples for some time compared to this engine stutter. Oil will be changed around Feb..I'll have them check out the stutter then unless I get a CEL or something else. Still have the big Powertrain Warranty for several more years.

 

 

Appreciate the help.

[lolder]

I'm not sure the <2% fuel is hybrid specific also. The Atkinson cycle ICE always blows gasoline laden charge back out the intake valve into the intake manifold. Offhand I can't think of how this might get into the oil but there are a lot of hoses and relays and valves involved. Have you checked for any stored DTCs? Ford systems have long monitored misses, uneven-running and even somewhat lowered power from an individual cylinder.

Ask Blackstone if they have comparison fuel content data from another 2013+ FFH.

Edited December 8, 2017 by lolder

[klatoo]

All I have is a super cheap OBDII scanner. Maybe next week I can drop by Autozone and see if they have a better one or just ask Ford to do it next oil change. With Ford at least I can make a story about the shutter and all that and they (hopefully) will put it on their scanner and see if it's a cylinder or what while idling or something.

 

I'll drop a note to Blackstone and see what they say.

[klatoo]

Ask Blackstone if they have comparison fuel content data from another 2013+ FFH.

 

Here's their reply

 

Good Morning David,

 

We did run a quick search of these hybrid engines and found that some, but not all have excess fuel in the oil. There could be a fuel system issue. Maybe it's related to the mechanism used to switch between electric and gas and that's why you are getting the shuttering.

 

Sometimes fuel will read at higher levels in a hybrid if the engine is getting shut down frequently because it's switching between the electric and gas (allowing fuel to accumulate in the oil). A good way to test that theory would be to take your Fusion for a 15-20 minute ride on the highway until the engine is up to full operating temp and then come back and take the sample.

 

Best Regards,

 

Ashley

 

Blackstone Laboratories

416 East Pettit Avenue

Fort Wayne, IN 46806

[lolder]

I suspected that might be true about the gas but the car should not stutter at all. I don't think how often the car stops and starts is it. Here's how it works:

1 The 60+ hp starter motor spins the ICE up to about 1000 rpm in about a 1/4 second when computer calls for the ICE.

2 The spark is turned on

3 Throttle is opened, fuel injection is ramped up as the starter energy and traction motor energy is ramped down.

When the computer calls for the ICE to stop:

4 The fuel injection is ramped down as the traction motor energy is ramped up

5 When the injectors are off, the throttle is kept open for a brief period with the ignition still on and the starter motor keeps the ICE at about 1000 rpm very briefly to purge the intake manifold of air/fuel charge. The throttle closes and the starter motor then stops and the ICE rapidly goes to 0 rpm. Below 1000 rpm there is never any fuel, ignition or much air in the cylinders as the throttle is closed.

 

This is all for emissions and smooth running. The ICE never has combustion below about 1000 rpm for smoothness. When the ICE is started again, the intake manifold is clear and the very first amount of fuel injected produces low emissions combustion. There is almost never any fuel that is not burned stoichiometrically ( chemically perfectly ) during running, starting and stopping.

 

You never hear the ICE "cranking" or going through compression strokes without firing like you do in a non-hybrid.

 

The big difference is the Atkinson ICE closes the intake valve latter in the compression stroke and a lot of fuel/air charge is blown back into the intake manifold. It tends to get the throttle body dirtier quicker. They can be cleaned or replaced.

Edited December 9, 2017 by lolder

[lolder]

In these hybrids, the ICEs are always run at almost wide open throttle and the lowest RPM that will yield the desired hp. The spark is advanced as far as possible. This is just shy of the "bucking" that you got in manual transmission cars when you were in too high a gear with too much throttle. It runs that way all of the time. That means the pressure in the cylinders during combustion is always at the same high level whether the rpm is low or high. Higher power is achieved by higher rpm only. Most cars run at half throttle or less so pressures are less unless you floor it. Consistently high pressures could produce more piston ring blow-by which could put more fuel in the crankcase. Since the ICE runs less, there's less of an opportunity for high engine temperatures to evaporate the gas and have it sucked into the intake via the crankcase PCV valve ( if there is one ).

This is my educated guess.

[R2D2]

 

Here's their reply

 

Good Morning David,

 

We did run a quick search of these hybrid engines and found that some, but not all have excess fuel in the oil. There could be a fuel system issue. Maybe it's related to the mechanism used to switch between electric and gas and that's why you are getting the shuttering.

 

Sometimes fuel will read at higher levels in a hybrid if the engine is getting shut down frequently because it's switching between the electric and gas (allowing fuel to accumulate in the oil). A good way to test that theory would be to take your Fusion for a 15-20 minute ride on the highway until the engine is up to full operating temp and then come back and take the sample.

 

Best Regards,

 

Ashley

 

Blackstone Laboratories

416 East Pettit Avenue

Fort Wayne, IN 46806

 

2 weeks ago my engine started stuttering/vibrating when switching to HV mode...enough where it's very noticeable and if you are in the screen with the tach is runs around 1000-1200 for 5-10 seconds. It does this longer on a cold engine than warm, and this occurs about 70% of the time. You can make the switch to HV happen faster by tapping the brakes some, but that's a little inconvenient to others when traveling 70+ on the interstate.

 

I'm sure this is a engine software issue but taking this to Ford will just be a huge PITA and I'm sure I'll get some BS line about how this is normal...well it's not. The steering wheel shimmies some..not violent, I'm not losing control of the vehicles, but it's enough to know that this isn't normal and different than before.

 

Any advice would be most welcome.

 

I have a Lincoln Mkz Hybrid with 50,500 miles. It started doing this at about 47,000 miles. I can feel a shutter/vibration only when it is changing from the gas engine to the electric engine. It lasts for about 1-2 seconds and then smooths out.

 

Did you ever get to the bottom of your issue and cure it?

 

I had mine to the Lincoln dealer twice about this and service manager is scratching his head.

 

I am a member of the Mkz forum and the moderator there suggested I try here as well as the cars are so closely related, here is the link to that forum thread http://lincolnmkzforum.com/topic/3364-vibration-when-drive-changes-from-gas-to-electric/

Edited February 4, 2018 by R2D2

[klatoo]

 

 

I have a Lincoln Mkz Hybrid with 50,500 miles. It started doing this at about 47,000 miles. I can feel a shutter/vibration only when it is changing from the gas engine to the electric engine. It lasts for about 1-2 seconds and then smooths out.

 

Did you ever get to the bottom of your issue and cure it?

 

I had mine to the Lincoln dealer twice about this and service manager is scratching his head.

 

I am a member of the Mkz forum and the moderator there suggested I try here as well as the cars are so closely related, here is the link to that forum thread http://lincolnmkzforum.com/topic/3364-vibration-when-drive-changes-from-gas-to-electric/

 

Fraid not...she's due for oil change and tire rotation in 2-3 weeks so I'm going to drop her off, take the guy for a ride and let him listen and feel, and go from there. Not holding my breath though.

[klatoo]

Completely forgot to post a follow up but two Ford dealers, both had zero to say. Both said they heard nothing. Took both for test drives, and neither heard anything. Offered to let them drive so they could feel...one accepted, other declined and felt nothing.

 

Stumped

[R2D2]

On a whim, since me Lincoln dealer convinced me it is the gas engine shutting off that causing the vibration rather then the electric engine turning on. I added a fuel injector cleaner to the gas tank and filled it up with hi-test gas.

 

Ran it hard (not normal for me at all) and after a about 200 miles the shuttering started to fade, I can still feel it but it is definitely less. My guess it sort of like the old "run-on" or "dieseling" condition that started with engines after all the pollution control stuff was added in the 70's

 

I will go back to using a fuel injector cleaner once a month in my gas as a routine.

[flippper00]

I'm very late to this conversation, but thought I would add my 2c, having similar issues.  I have a 2014 Ford Fusion Energi (same drivetrain as Fusion Hybrid except for a bigger battery).  Around 90k miles I also noticed some rough transitions in and out of ICE mode.  Then my check engine light lit up, checked the codes and had misfire codes.  Ran Techron, misfires went away for a bit and returned, always fill up with 92 octane Chevron (92 for a few extra hp),  tried other combustion chamber cleaners, misfires would come and go.  The misfires appear as missed ignitions, not detonations.  I've concluded at 105K miles and 10+ years that I simply need to replace the spark plugs.  As soon as it warms up outdoors that's my next fix.  The stumbling in and out of ICE mode calms down mostly after the engine warms up, it struggles when cold.

[MeeLee]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:13 PM, flippper00 said:

I'm very late to this conversation, but thought I would add my 2c, having similar issues.  I have a 2014 Ford Fusion Energi (same drivetrain as Fusion Hybrid except for a bigger battery).  Around 90k miles I also noticed some rough transitions in and out of ICE mode.  Then my check engine light lit up, checked the codes and had misfire codes.  Ran Techron, misfires went away for a bit and returned, always fill up with 92 octane Chevron (92 for a few extra hp),  tried other combustion chamber cleaners, misfires would come and go.  The misfires appear as missed ignitions, not detonations.  I've concluded at 105K miles and 10+ years that I simply need to replace the spark plugs.  As soon as it warms up outdoors that's my next fix.  The stumbling in and out of ICE mode calms down mostly after the engine warms up, it struggles when cold.

130k miles, and still stock plugs.

User manual says replace at 150k miles. They are iridium plugs.

On the Honda forums, people managed to run +200k miles on iridium plugs. And those are regular gas cars, revving between 2 and 4k rpm.

 

The FFH runs revs way lower (usually 2-2.5k rpm max if you drive carefully). It also runs about 30-40% in ev mode, but depending on your situation may lower to 10%. That means, if the plugs last 200k miles on a Honda, they should last about ~300k miles on the FFH.

 

I know a guy who had 400k miles on his energi. Not sure if he ever changed the plugs. The energi generally runs the engine even less.

 

[dlubin]

My 2013 with ~140K on it started having this problem a couple of months ago.  Initially I thought it might be a stuck or dirty injector.  I checked the plugs and they looked perfect as far as color and gap (~40K on them).  I also cleaned the MAF sensor while I was at it.  I then went through 2 bottles of Techron to clean the injectors.  That did not help the stuttering much but it seemed like high speed performance may be a little better.  I then started thinking about what would cause this kind of low speed problem at light or no throttle.  On my car I can avoid the stutter by giving it more throttle as it goes from EV to ICE.  This reminded me of a problem on another car I have that turned out to be a vacuum leak.  Vacuum leaks tend to have a significant effect when there is not a lot of fuel going into the engine.  At more open throttle, the leak effect gets diluted by the higher volume of mixture going through the system.  Now I need to get in there and search for a leak.  I don't have a service manual yet so I don't know if there are any systems built into the car that may be incorrectly leaning out the mixture when it switches between ICE and EV.  I'll probably start out looking for a loose hose, and then try shooting some carb cleaner around physical interfaces that lead to the intake stream and see if the engine changes speed and/or stuttering.

 

I'm a bit surprised that a cause and solution has not been found yet.

[billford]

5 hours ago, dlubin said:

On my car I can avoid the stutter by giving it more throttle as it goes from EV to ICE.

 

You mean the stutter happens more on ev?