Active Grill Shutter Problem

[ptjones]

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

 

Exactly, the hybrid was ever at most what, like 10% of total Fusion volume.  Plus the consequences of not getting up to operating temperature in cold conditions doesn't hit the EPA cycle and thus doesn't affect the window sticker fuel economy, so Ford would have very little incentive to try to do anything different.

I think they may have rethink-ed things after the MPG debacle, a lot of negative Press.  The New FEH mpg numbers seem to be easy to get at 44city/37 HYW with the little Test Driving I have done. 

 

Paul

[Sky14FFH]

Ugh. The engine does not heat up!  It is rarely at the operating temperature of 180-205 degrees if ever.  Since it barely gets up to 130degrees I can't get any heat in the cabin. It's freezing.  Under 5 degree temperatures, forget it. You're not getting any heat.  I have to wear gloves and a hat.  I do not have heated seats. It's ridiculous to need to waste energy on an engine block heater to overcome this.  With the grill block that has been remedied a little but since the blocks Paul gave me are too wide I have gaps at either side letting in too much air.  Maybe I can sand the blocks down more to size.   When I had simply taped soft plastic over the grills sealing out all air the temperature would get up to 190s.  Anyway much like the cabin air filtration 1. the shutters are too overengineered and so inadequate.  If you look at them there are gaps around the hinges that let enough cold air through that cools too much.  They are like jallousy windows. Anyone familiar with those? Those the are louvered windows they used to put in houses in the tropics back in the 1950s when it wasn't as hot then that make it nearly impossible to air condition a place because they do not create a proper seal from the outside elements. The louvers let in too much cold.  The best workable setup in the winter would be a system that blocks and seals the grill 100%.  The grill is a gross overkill and totally unnecessary.  The 2.0l turbo has an intercooler doesn't it?  That's for cooling the turbo which needs it.  Where I am I see more hybrid fusions than others, so over 50%.

 

1. Ford Spent 8 Years developing the new filtration system. https://youtu.be/KUEQHn7GtGA?t=2m18s

 

 Yet it doesn't do the job of adequately filtering the cabin.  https://youtu.be/KUEQHn7GtGA?t=4m11s

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[ptjones]

A turbo compresses the air which causes it to heat up which causes the need for an intercooler to cool the air back down.  It also causes the WT to go up also which requires more air to cool the radiator. FFH the ICE only runs half the time so it doesn't much cooling.

 

Paul

[Sky14FFH]

4 hours ago, ptjones said:

A turbo compresses the air which causes it to heat up

It's also the hot exhaust gases that spool up the impeller.   But in the fusion it is tiny 1.5 liter turbo engine.  They should have designed the grill differently for the hybrids. Just made the openings smaller. I notice the newer CMAX has smaller openings.

[billford]

7 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

Ugh. The engine does not heat up!  It is rarely at the operating temperature of 180-205 degrees if ever.  Since it barely gets up to 130degrees I can't get any heat in the cabin. It's freezing.  Under 5 degree temperatures, forget it. You're not getting any heat.  I have to wear gloves and a hat.  I do not have heated seats. It's ridiculous to need to waste energy on an engine block heater to overcome this.  With the grill block that has been remedied a little but since the blocks Paul gave me are too wide I have gaps at either side letting in too much air.  Maybe I can sand the blocks down more to size.   When I had simply taped soft plastic over the grills sealing out all air the temperature would get up to 190s.  Anyway much like the cabin air filtration 1. the shutters are too overengineered and so inadequate.  If you look at them there are gaps around the hinges that let enough cold air through that cools too much.  They are like jallousy windows. Anyone familiar with those? Those the are louvered windows they used to put in houses in the tropics back in the 1950s when it wasn't as hot then that make it nearly impossible to air condition a place because they do not create a proper seal from the outside elements. The louvers let in too much cold.  The best workable setup in the winter would be a system that blocks and seals the grill 100%.  The grill is a gross overkill and totally unnecessary.  The 2.0l turbo has an intercooler doesn't it?  That's for cooling the turbo which needs it.  Where I am I see more hybrid fusions than others, so over 50%.

 

1. Ford Spent 8 Years developing the new filtration system. https://youtu.be/KUEQHn7GtGA?t=2m18s

 

 Yet it doesn't do the job of adequately filtering the cabin.  https://youtu.be/KUEQHn7GtGA?t=4m11s

 

 

 

If you want the engine to burn fuel to provide cabin heat, then you will complain about gas mileage. 

Unfortunately, the Fusion does not have any electric heating system, except for the heated seats and block heater,  which you don't have or don't want to use.  

Seems like you should quit complaining and accept it as is, or get a different car. 

[CV12Steve]

On 3/2/2020 at 3:26 PM, Sky14FFH said:

You must have been born recently. They've been done for decades.  Look at the front end of the Eagle Talon.  Look at just about all Hondas and Toyotas.  I don't live in yellowknife, even in the area where this company is headquartered the engine struggles to get above 140 degrees and even with the grill block on takes a while to get to 160 degrees.  No one lives in Death Valley in the summer.

The Eagle Talon could maintain a 10º ET range across all those climate ranges, let alone just varying from stop-n-go to hwy speeds a summer commute? Truly a masterpiece of engineering!

Most of the cars I've seen in many decades of driving would be considered very successful if they stayed within a 40º range over those OAT extremes.

I'm sure Ford doesn't care where you live, they don't want to design different bodies for different latitudes/altitudes. The days of having to re-tune your Rocky Mountain car for a trip to sea level or vice versa are long gone.

Haven driven from San Diego beaches through LA/Central Valley heat to Mt St Helens snow in ~12hrs (have to love the pre-radar days in Ca!), good riddance I say. Just get in, gas up, caffeine up and drive.

[ptjones]

And still Grill Covers are the simplest and cheapest solution for this problem.

 

Paul

[Waldo]

My 2014 will heat up the cabin just fine if I let it.  I do play the games of trying to not let the ICE run just to generate heat, but if I just put the climate in auto and drive normally, it will heat up within about 5 minutes even on cold days.  That's what my wife does and she's never complained that it doesn't warm up, even on her short commutes.

 

Grill shutters were designed for aero, they were not designed to heat up the engine.  Suggesting they are "overengineered" because they don't serve the purpose that you want while ignoring the purpose that they were designed for doesn't make any sense.  Despite whatever you might "see", the fact is the turbo Fusions outsold the hybrid like 10 to 1, so trying to criticize Ford because they didn't make a car that is custom tailored for your particular use case really misses the big picture.

[Sky14FFH]

11 hours ago, billford said:

If you want the engine to burn fuel to provide cabin heat, then you will complain about gas mileage. 

Unfortunately, the Fusion does not have any electric heating system, except for the heated seats and block heater,  which you don't have or don't want to use.  

Seems like you should quit complaining and accept it as is, or get a different car. 

Your statement doesn't make any sense.  Because the engine is overly cooled it cannot reach optimal operating temperatures and so it gets worse gas mileage.  So No I would not complain about gas mileage because it would get better gas mileage without the enormous grill. 

This is ridiculous. We shouldn't have to use a heated seats, or a block heater to get adequate heating from the heating system!  Which I don't want to use?  Have you not been paying attention?  I fabricated a grill block to improve the situation which is a passive way of getting the engine to warm up faster and reach proper operating temperatures without using any extra energy.  Why don't you use a grill block?

  Accept it as it is?  What do you think this forum is for? These car forums are not just for worshipping the cars but for trading tips and tricks on how to improve them, modify them and by chance even hotrod them!  It seems you're oblivious to an institution that has been around for over 20 years. 
Seems like you shouldn't have complained and remained living in a cave. Do you even shower in the morning? 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

My 2014 will heat up the cabin just fine if I let it.  I do play the games of trying to not let the ICE run just to generate heat, but if I just put the climate in auto and drive normally, it will heat up within about 5 minutes even on cold days.  That's what my wife does and she's never complained that it doesn't warm up, even on her short commutes.

 

Grill shutters were designed for aero, they were not designed to heat up the engine.  Suggesting they are "overengineered" because they don't serve the purpose that you want while ignoring the purpose that they were designed for doesn't make any sense.  Despite whatever you might "see", the fact is the turbo Fusions outsold the hybrid like 10 to 1, so trying to criticize Ford because they didn't make a car that is custom tailored for your particular use case really misses the big picture.

Mine gushes in Auto thus cooling the engine even more to where it never heats up.  What are cold days where you live? Where I live cold days are -5F.  5 minutes??? There's no chance. Maybe there is something wrong with mine.  Grill shutters were not designed for aero!  There is nothing aerodyamic about them. They are buried deeply behind the grill allowing the air to enter the grill and get trapped there.  They were designed to allow the engine to warm up faster however they are inadequate. Maybe in the beginning but now all I see are hybrid fusions in Detroit.  Custom tailored for my particular use?!!!  One doesn't need custom tailoring to get heat in the cabin!  Nearly every car in production has been "custom tailored" to get heat in the cabin for the last 70 years!  I was just watching excerpts of that movie Idiocracy and man is that ever prophetic.

[Sky14FFH]

6 hours ago, CV12Steve said:

I'm sure Ford doesn't care where you live, they don't want to design different bodies for different latitudes/altitudes

They already have!  Look at the grills on the new CMAXes.  They have little slits.  You don't have to design different bodies!  An $90 adequately functioning grill block is all they would need.  If turbo charged cars in the 90s didn't need huge gaping maws of grills then cars today shouldn't.

[Waldo]

1 hour ago, Sky14FFH said:

Mine gushes in Auto thus cooling the engine even more to where it never heats up.  What are cold days where you live? Where I live cold days are -5F.  5 minutes??? There's no chance. Maybe there is something wrong with mine.  Grill shutters were not designed for aero!  There is nothing aerodyamic about them. They are buried deeply behind the grill allowing the air to enter the grill and get trapped there.  They were designed to allow the engine to warm up faster however they are inadequate. Maybe in the beginning but now all I see are hybrid fusions in Detroit.  Custom tailored for my particular use?!!!  One doesn't need custom tailoring to get heat in the cabin!  Nearly every car in production has been "custom tailored" to get heat in the cabin for the last 70 years!  I was just watching excerpts of that movie Idiocracy and man is that ever prophetic.

 

When has it been -5F in Detroit recently??  But yea, maybe there is something wrong with yours, because I've been using mine in Detroit winters for the last 6 years and haven't had any problems getting warm in the cabin (when I want it to).  You see so many hybrids in Detroit because Ford is unloading them through the management lease program because they don't sell anywhere else.

 

Grill shutters are designed for aero, you'll just have to accept that as fact.  Blocking/trapping the air creates a high pressure zone at the front of the car that causes the air to flow up and around the grill.  It's worth around 15-20 "counts" (0.015-0.020 Cd) on a car like the Fusion.  The engine warm-up effect is just a side benefit that really has nothing to do with why they are used.  In fact when you install grill blockers, you are likely creating a low pressure zone behind the radiator that will then pull cold air up from under the car into the engine compartment instead of letting the warmer air flow through the radiator fill the engine compartment.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Waldo

[billford]

13 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

Your statement doesn't make any sense.  Because the engine is overly cooled it cannot reach optimal operating temperatures and so it gets worse gas mileage.  So No I would not complain about gas mileage because it would get better gas mileage without the enormous grill. 

This is ridiculous. We shouldn't have to use a heated seats, or a block heater to get adequate heating from the heating system!  Which I don't want to use?  Have you not been paying attention?  I fabricated a grill block to improve the situation which is a passive way of getting the engine to warm up faster and reach proper operating temperatures without using any extra energy.  Why don't you use a grill block?

  Accept it as it is?  What do you think this forum is for? These car forums are not just for worshipping the cars but for trading tips and tricks on how to improve them, modify them and by chance even hotrod them!  It seems you're oblivious to an institution that has been around for over 20 years. 
Seems like you shouldn't have complained and remained living in a cave. Do you even shower in the morning? 

 

Where did I complain?

No, I don't live in a cave.

And yes, I do shower. 

If you need to insult, do it through p.m. Keep the forum to discussing Fusions. 

 

 I don't see what the large grille has to do with it. If the coolant thermostat is operating properly, there is  no coolant flow through the radiator at 130. (the temperature you stated that you have trouble reaching)

 

If you have to block air through the grille to reach 130, maybe you have a  problem, like a thermostat is not closing properly or coolant bypassing it. In that case, blocking airflow through a grille should help as its like adding a second thermostat, but the root problem remains.

 

Using the heater at low temperatures can also delay warm up as the heater core is just another radiator. On my Fusion, the fan speed stays on low (unless its on defrost) at low temperatures, then it automatically ramps up as coolant temperatures increase. Also with the heat on, the engine will stay running up to 128F to aid in warm up. Your climate control software could be out of date if yours doesn't act the same way.

Edited March 6, 2020 by billford

[ptjones]

3 hours ago, Waldo said:

 

Grill shutters are designed for aero, you'll just have to accept that as fact.  Blocking/trapping the air creates a high pressure zone at the front of the car that causes the air to flow up and around the grill.  It's worth around 15-20 "counts" (0.015-0.020 Cd) on a car like the Fusion.  The engine warm-up effect is just a side benefit that really has nothing to do with why they are used.  In fact when you install grill blockers, you are likely creating a low pressure zone behind the radiator that will then pull cold air up from under the car into the engine compartment instead of letting the warmer air flow through the radiator fill the engine compartment.

Active Grille Shutter maybe designed for aero, but once the ICE is up to operating temps they are open negating any aero benefit. They also open and close by monitoring WT. and that is why I think the shutters were designed to heat up the ICE quicker, the ICE is more efficient when at operating temps, cut down on pollution and the aero benefit was an additional benefit that only works  part of the time, it sounds good and the Advertising Department promoted it.

 

Grill Covers are a lot more efficient at blocking air flow to the radiator and ICE keeping it in the operating range above 202*F.  Some air still flows around Grill Cover, hood, head lights ect. and then is sucked out by air going under the lower ICE cover vents designed to suck air out of the ICE compartment.

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/5/2020 at 1:26 PM, Waldo said:

 

When has it been -5F in Detroit recently??

February 1st 2019 it was -14 degrees!!  https://www.wunderground.com/history/weekly/us/mi/waterford-township/KPTK/date/2019-2-1
" (when I want it to "
When you want it to??  I want it to all the time and it only started happening when I fabricated the pretty polycarbonate grill block.

 

" If you have to block air through the grille to reach 130, maybe you have a  problem "  You think 130 degrees is an adequate operating temperature?? Is this your first car or something?  On my last car I could tell when my thermostat was failing when it used to open at 180 degrees (thanks to scangauge) instead of the OEM spec 190 so I would change it out and put a new one in and it would be back up to 190-195 and be nice and toasty in the cabin again and the fuel economy would go back up to 38 vs 34. Thermostats fail often.  Heck evenbefore the scangauge when I was in HS I changed the thermostat on my explorer and probe at least once.  Would be back to toasty heat.  Maybe that's the problem with my hybrid but it's always been the problem but only occurs  in the winter.  If a thermostat is stuck open or opening prematurely it usually happens year round.

" Grill shutters are designed for aero, you'll just have to accept that as fact.  "  lol *rolls eyes* Sure they are.  You keep believing that.  It's not a fact, it is utter nonsense.  Buried deep behind the grill they have absolutely zero effect on aerodynamics and are only designed to restrict airflow through the radiator and engine and don't do a very good job at that.
" Blocking/trapping the air creates a high pressure zone at the front of the car " So would a piece of plywood bro, and it's called drag, not "aero" as in drag reducing the aerodynamics.
As far as the rest of it, you're either a troll, you're stupid AF or you're just not paying attention.  Do you know what a scanguageII is?  I have one hooked up. What's more is I have the temperature "gauge" on my MyView on the left display panel. Before Grill block the temperature would rise and fall between 123 degrees prompting the engine to run more often and 140 degrees.  After grill block the engine warms up within 2 miles to 130 degrees and reaches 155-185degrees.  It's doing an adequate job of improving the engine temperature and giving me more heat in the cabin.  I can SEE IT on the SCANGAUGE and it is ACCURATE and matches up with the onboard temperature gauge.


 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/5/2020 at 4:35 PM, billford said:

 

Where did I complain?

No, I don't live in a cave.

And yes, I do shower. 

If you need to insult, do it through p.m. Keep the forum to discussing Fusions. 

 

 I don't see what the large grille has to do with it. If the coolant thermostat is operating properly, there is  no coolant flow through the radiator at 130. (the temperature you stated that you have trouble reaching)

 

If you have to block air through the grille to reach 130, maybe you have a  problem, like a thermostat is not closing properly or coolant bypassing it. In that case, blocking airflow through a grille should help as its like adding a second thermostat, but the root problem remains.

 

Using the heater at low temperatures can also delay warm up as the heater core is just another radiator. On my Fusion, the fan speed stays on low (unless its on defrost) at low temperatures, then it automatically ramps up as coolant temperatures increase. Also with the heat on, the engine will stay running up to 128F to aid in warm up. Your climate control software could be out of date if yours doesn't act the same way.

Can't you follow along in a conversation?  You wrote " Seems like you should quit complaining and accept it as is, or get a different car. " So I responded with " So No I would not complain about gas mileage because it would get better gas mileage "  You said I would.  Sorry in this case it is not an insult it is a statement of the obvious.  As far as "get a different car" that is another idiotic statement.  Should I get new house because the mailbox needs a new door?

"I don't see what the large grille has to do with it."  No doubt. You aren't the sharpest tool in the shed.  But *sigh* it's obviously because it allows too much air in making the engine and coolant get too cold.  You know there ARE air cooled engines out there right?  If it was the thermostat it would happen all year around. I lived in the tropics once and my 1.8 liter mazda sprang a leak in its radiator hose.  It was completely out of water for several miles (most downhill thank heavens).  Must have been pushing 90 degrees outside. The engine only overheated when I made it to town, and started pinging when I came to stop lights because the airflow over the engine from the movement of the car through the air was adequate enough to cool it. It finally stalled out literally at the light across the street from the service station I was headed to since I had caught it when it had just turned red.  We pushed it the rest of the way.  Love stick shifts.  The useless temperature gauge didn't indicate it was overheated until it was too late. Stayed in the middle up until the end. 
Yeah maybe the firmware is out of date but I asked the dealerships twice and they insisted there were no updates, now they are demanding $120 just to check.  Forget it.  I like the grill block and the improvement in fuel economy.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

7 hours ago, ptjones said:

 They also open and close by monitoring WT. and that is why I think the shutters were designed to heat up the ICE quicker, the ICE is more efficient when at operating temps,

Minor correction. That is how you KNOW the shutters were intended  (not going to write "designed" here since they are so poorly designed) to allow the ICE to heat up faster and more thoroughly.  Ford knew they had overkill on the grill size but vanity won out over common sense.  I notice the newer fusions have smaller grill openings behind the chrome.  As far as your description of what you experienced with the CMAX that matches my experience pretty consistently.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Waldo]

6 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

Minor correction. That is how you KNOW the shutters were intended  (not going to write "designed" here since they are so poorly designed) to allow the ICE to heat up faster and more thoroughly.  Ford knew they had overkill on the grill size but vanity won out over common sense.  I notice the newer fusions have smaller grill openings behind the chrome.  As far as your description of what you experienced with the CMAX that matches my experience pretty consistently.

 

Good grief, what a ridiculous statement.  I've sat in meetings with the chief engineers where they've decided to add grill shutters and it was all based around the aero benefit.  I've seen the windtunnel data, what I posted above is FACT.  I mean really, grill shutters are on everything from F150s to Kia's to BMWs with all kinds of powertrains, not just hybrids.  Do you really think all of those vehicles have a problem getting their engines up to operating temp?  Not saying it doesn't help warm-up, but the benefit of that would never justify the cost of the shutters alone.

 

Air flowing through a grill into the radiator and then all around the engine compartment is bad for drag.  Air flowing up and over the hood is much better.  Imagine a bucket of water.  At first when you fill the bucket the water gets "trapped" in the bottom of the bucket.  But once that bucket gets full, where does the water go?  The new water falling into the bucket doesn't get "trapped" in the bucket, instead it rolls over the sides.  Same thing with closed grill shutters, the "trapped" air creates a "full bucket" so that as you continue driving the air is pushed over and around the front of the car.

 

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/active-grille-shutters-are-latest-way-to-improve-fuel-efficiency.html

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079678_active-shutter-grille-vents-how-they-help-improve-mpg

https://www.valeo.com/en/active-grille-shutters/

 

 

I'm also not saying that the grill opening on the FFH isn't too big for the FFH, it probably is.  But it would be extremely expensive to make a unique grill opening just for the FFH, so the engineers just have to find the best compromises.

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Waldo

[Waldo]

14 hours ago, ptjones said:

Active Grille Shutter maybe designed for aero, but once the ICE is up to operating temps they are open negating any aero benefit. They also open and close by monitoring WT. and that is why I think the shutters were designed to heat up the ICE quicker, the ICE is more efficient when at operating temps, cut down on pollution and the aero benefit was an additional benefit that only works  part of the time, it sounds good and the Advertising Department promoted it.

 

 

Yes, the shutters are designed to open when the engine gets hot.  But think of it the other way.  They are intended to be closed for the aero benefit all of the time.  They only open when more cooling is needed.

[ptjones]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

 

Yes, the shutters are designed to open when the engine gets hot.  But think of it the other way.  They are intended to be closed for the aero benefit all of the time.  They only open when more cooling is needed.

I pretty much agree with you, but I think getting the ICE up to 210-215*F when the shutters open is more important for MPG's than the aero improvement from my testing Grill Covers which showed a 4 mpg over just shutters.

 

Paul

[billford]

9 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

.... But *sigh* it's obviously because it allows too much air in making the engine and coolant get too cold.  ....

 

Quote

 

How does the engine and coolant get too cold  if the coolant flow is blocked by the thermostat?

Although the coolant sitting in the radiator will be cold, its not flowing through the engine at 130F in a properly working system regardless of grille size.

Edited March 6, 2020 by billford

[ptjones]

26 minutes ago, billford said:

 

How does the engine and coolant get too cold  if the coolant flow is blocked by the thermostat?

Although the coolant sitting in the radiator will be cold, its not flowing through the engine at 130F in a properly working system regardless of grille size.

Being that the ICE is made of Aluminum which is a very good heat conductor air passing over it will cool the ICE down. I proved this with my CMAX by blocking off the top grille and the WT ran 5*F warmer. The air passes over the radiator and over the ICE down and out the bottom ICE cover. The FFH shutters only cover the radiator so the rest of the air goes in to the ICE compartment.

 

Paul

[billford]

1 hour ago, ptjones said:

Being that the ICE is made of Aluminum which is a very good heat conductor air passing over it will cool the ICE down. I proved this with my CMAX by blocking off the top grille and the WT ran 5*F warmer. The air passes over the radiator and over the ICE down and out the bottom ICE cover. The FFH shutters only cover the radiator so the rest of the air goes in to the ICE compartment.

 

Paul

 

If it increases 5F, then he will reach a maximum of 135 based on your test which is still too cold.

There's still another problem rather than blaming the size of the grille.

Installing and monitoring a temperature probe at the top hose of the radiator (after the thermostat) would be a good test and prove if coolant is flowing when it should not be. 

[ptjones]

16 minutes ago, billford said:

 

If it increases 5F, then he will reach a maximum of 135 based on your test which is still too cold.

There's still another problem rather than blaming the size of the grille.

Installing and monitoring a temperature probe at the top hose of the radiator (after the thermostat) would be a good test and prove if coolant is flowing when it should not be. 

The thermostat doesn't open till 182*F according to FORD and you can actually see it with the ScanGaugeII,  WT will rise to 182*F and stop for a while until the radiator warms up. BTW the Top grille isn't necessary in a FFH, all the cooling can be done by the bottom grille.

 

Paul

[billford]

5 minutes ago, ptjones said:

The thermostat doesn't open till 182*F according to FORD and you can actually see it with the ScanGaugeII,  WT will rise to 182*F and stop for a while until the radiator warms up. BTW the Top grille isn't necessary in a FFH, all the cooling can be done by the bottom grille.

 

Paul

 

So then if the thermostat opens at 182 and he has trouble reaching 130, what does that indicate?