CometFlash

Peronally, my big issue with the EV Focus is that you're out of luck when your battery is dry. I like the safety of knowing I have a gas engine to kick in if I need to travel further (hence my interest in the volt, albeit a chevy). If I was retired, or rich, I wouldn't care. But I've got many many years ahead of me in the working life of the average joe, and I couldn't take that chance with random meetings in faraway places and such every year for my job. (By the way, whoever runs this site, I have to say I LOVE all the smiley emoticons there are to choose from. I always want to use a different one if I can!) For example, here's my job, aka The Man, pushing me off the cliff driving me insane with massive sales pressure tactics --> :devil2:

No idea, never looked at those stats. I'd assume the prius sells way better, but I have absolute zero interest in it, or the camry. I heard nothing but great things about the Fusion, and nothing good about the prius except its fantastic MPG (everything else I've read baout it is very econo, boring and uncomfortable). The camry holds below zero interest for me, so I haven't even looked at any info about it at all. In terms of hybrids, it seems almost a forgotten one in any articles or discussions on the subject. I'd take a volt over the camry or prius for sure. My guess is your point being the weird looking prius sells great, so why not the c-max? Eh, perhaps so, guess we'll see as they roll out of the factories. Only thing is, the prius is more of a weird-looking car, where the c-max is a weird-looking minivan thing. Far as I can remember my life, minivan's have had a horrid stigma attached to them. Perhaps that time has passed and they are socially acceptable now? Wait & see is all we can do at this point. :waiting:

I agree with this point. However, I believe the frustration with this debate is that with car sales, the public has been led to believe, truly or falsely, that dealers are out to screw them over. That would be my guess as to why a lot of people want to get the absolute best deal/lowest price humanly possible. And even at that, they still feel that the dealer made more money than they should have on the deal because they always have the upper hand/inside knowledge. If car dealers just sold every vehicle made at +$XXX.xx over invoice, and there was absolutely no haggling necessary, I don't think anyone would have an issue with them making that $XXX.xx profit margin. I think the whole super-haggling comes into play because people feel that cars cost way more than they should and people feel a lot of that is profit to the dealer/manufacturer and not anywhere near the true cost to build & sell the car. At any rate, that's my guess as to why this stigma exists and why some people do so much spreadsheeting and researching before they even set foot in the dealerships to start that arduous process in person. I myself wouldn't go too in-depth on the pricing breakdown, though I would do lots of research for the right fit vehicle for me and do some basic pricing research to see what others are truly paying for the vehicle(s) I'm looking at. But everyone is different, and they need to do what's comfortable for them. My guess is that if Aptos goes into a dealer with all his homework sheets with him, he'll have a lot more solid footing to stand on when negotiating. Does it mean it'll always be the best way to approach each dealer? Not always, some of them may be aggravated by thinking they are now on the short end, and not want to do any deals, or perhaps add-on as many nitpicky costs as possible to offset the lost margin. Still, my bet is that it's better to be prepared than not. :stats: I know next to nothing of X-Plan and how that all works, so maybe that's a better method... or maybe not. Again, each person just needs to do what's right for him. Who knows, just my take on the whole thing. To each his own. To summarize my point, I don't think anyone has a problem with dealers making a profit, it's just that they never can be sure just how much is profit and did they get a really fair deal or did the dealer LOL when they walked out after signing the paperwork? :headscratch: :shrug:

Yeah, I was dissapointed with that too. The Focus is a decent looking car, but the c-max ( :barf: ) does nothing for me. Why they chose it to get the PHEV rather than the Focus is beyond me.

Better to do too much homework, than not enough. This FFH forum may be a LOT less active than the F-150 forum I visit every day, but everyone here is MUCH nicer. I'd hate to see people start fighting here over just a difference of opinion or whatnot. :redcard: On the truck forum I visit, the guys will rip you to shreds if you say anything that can even remotely be construed as against the F-150, as if it's the best vehicle ever made and the be-all-end-all of automobiles. Sure, I love it. But come on, everything has it's flaws, and can always be improved upon. Anyways, for me personally I appreciate seeing all the info that is posted that others have done figuring out pricing and whatnot, as it helps me and I'm sure others as well to see what is currently going on pricing-wise. Sure, I 100% agree dealers need to make a profit, but since auto's are one of the very few items consumers can actually haggle on, I say go get the best deal possible! In a way it stinks we can't haggle on couches or mattress', but then again, part of the reason people hate car shopping is because of exactly that, the haggling. :banghead:

All good advice. My 2009 F-150 is completely paid off, and not quite 2 years old yet. Trade value of 31k. If I traded for a loaded FFH, it would cost me 2-3k out-of-pocket. If I traded for a loaded MKZH, it would cost me prob 9-10k out-of-pocket. In 1 year I would save 2k or more in fuel driving either vehicle compared to my truck. That would make the FFH start paying for itself after 1 year of ownership. Obviously it would take 5 years for the MKZH to start paying for itself. Of course, this is all assuming gas prices stay where they are, which looks doubtful. The higher fuel goes, the more expensive it is to operate the truck compared to the hybrids. I use half a tank of fuel every week with my truck, with a 36 gallon tank. That's over $200+ a month on fuel. Even though the FFH makes a lot more sense financially right away, I'm worried I might regret not buying the MKZH since I'm used to always having the top-of-line fully loaded version of whatever I buy. I learned back in 1996 not to save a few bucks and then always regret not getting everything you wanted for just a few bucks more a month. Don't want to go years on end with those thoughts again like I did back then, making payments for 5 years wondering why I didn't just pony up the few extra bucks and get everything so there were no regrets for all those years. Then again, perhaps I'll hang onto the truck another year and see what's in store for the next all-new Fusion/MKZH. I have a strong suspicion the exterior will have more sculpting/character to it than the current models do now, as they are rather bland from the sides. Plus they'll use the new batteries for longer life/better MPG. Of course, waiting for the newest thing means always waiting forever and not saving on fuel costs right now, so there's that. It sucks that chevy has a nice-looking(exterior) car for their volt plug-in hybrid or however they are happy classifying it; while Ford's first plug-in hybrid is the boring-@$$ c-max mini-minivan thing. The volt could drive me to and from work each day and never use any gas at all. Now that's a sweet deal. But... it's chevy. No Sync. No other Ford tech. Dunno if I could do that or not. Plus it uses premium fuel when you do use gas (which isn't a big deal since I'd hardly ever use fuel driving a volt). Hmmm.

What color? Some colors, such as WP and RC cost more than the others. I'm assuming that's without remote start, if I recall on the FFH that's a dealer add-on and not a factory option, though I could be mistaken.

That's actually pretty cool you said that. I actually watch her show every week, as corny as that may sound, because she does give great financial advice and I work very hard to do the right thing with my money. My goal was to save money to help pay down my first home I just bought by increasing my monthly payments (which my very first payment of 30 years is Feb 1st). But who knows, maybe it makes sense to stick with what I have for now and wait and see what's around the corner since my truck is paid off. We'll see. :beerchug:

Nice, if I pick one up I'm hoping it will be ok in the New England winter weathers.

To each his own. I has grey cloth in my 1997 F-150 XLT, grey leather in my 1998 F-150 Lariat, black in my 2004 F-150 Lariat and black w/sienna brown leather in my 2009 F-150 Platinum. Although the grey was fairly good at hiding stuff, it was very boring. The black looks waaaay nicer, and is very easy to maintain. How dirty does the interior of your vehicle get? Mine always remains spotless, with maybe two quick dustings a year on the dash n such and a bit of leather polish. Keeping an interior clean is simplistic, mine always look like they just rolled out from the showroom brand-new and I hardly touch it, just drive it that's about it. As for tan, it gets scuffed much too easily for my tastes. Black scuff marks that just won't come off for any amount of scrubbing (someone I knew got the tan in his truck). Ugh. Black all the way. :yup: Now, for exterior, that's a different story. Impossible to keep looking good unless you are rich, retired, or make a living detailing vehicles and can do yours on your break every day. Balck exterior sucks. Any dark color sucks (burgundy/blue/green). Grey is OK, but boring. Tan is amazing, always looks clean, but again not very exciting but not bad depending on the shade. Silver is just like tan, never shows anything. White is also very forgiving, not quite as easy as tan or silver. But like someone else stated, there are so many variations of white now a lot of times you won't know it's dirty until you get up close to it. My 1998 was Dark Toreador Red w/Silver Frost two-tone. The silver was always spotless, but the burgundy was a nightmare. My 2004 was Arizona Beige, and was SO easy to keep looking great - it never showed anything. My 2009 is White Sand Tri-Coat, really nice and fairly easy too.

How are you managing 10k off a hybrid? Down here in the states, in MA in particular, not only can you not find a used one anywhere, but even the new ones no one is willing to deal on at all. They'll deal on the gas models, but the hybrids... :shrug:

Same here, always fill when half empty (full). :yup: Of course, I have to fill WAY more often than you hybrid driver's. Once a week minimum, at a good $50-$60 a pop. F-150's have an insatiable appetite. :doh:

Like you mentioned, I like the looks of the MKZ. Plus it has things like Adaptive HID's, LED's, an outstanding 14-speaker THX 5.1 Surround Sound System, A/C seats, seats are more comfortable than Fusion seats, driver and passenger powered seats drivers with memory function, acoustic laminated windshield, extra sound deadening ("whisper quiet" and "library-like ambiance" are phrases used), reviews have also mentioned a more refined ride due to different tuning favoring comfort over sportiness, the wood trim in the Executive Package looks really nice and the micro-suede inserts in the bridge of weir leather seats (included with Executive Package) are also really nice to the touch (leather is milled for up to 12 hours to ensure a soft hand). Plus on the looks front, I really don't care for the standard (and only choice) wheels on the FFH, whereas the MKZH gives you a really nice shiny chromed option, among others. So it does have a number of things over the FFH, besides the looks. Combine them all together and it sounds pretty good to me. But I'm not ruling out the FFH just yet. We'll see what happens when I start the shopping process and see what dealers are willing to work with me on (prob start that process sometime in March).

It was exciting to see all the new stuff late last night. But now I'm awake, not half-asleep at 1am. I have to say, no matter how I look at it, the C-Max just doesn't do anything for me in terms of interest or excitment to own. I mean, my feelings on the tech haven't changed, it's really cool stuff. But the vehicle itself just does nothing for me, it's way too bland and rather reminds of of like a tiny minivan in a way. Like AptosDriver said, almost like a spartan prius, which doesn't interest me at all. It may not be brand-new anymore, but the FFH and MKZH are still much more interesting to look at, at least there's some excitement there visually (perhaps why I'm leaning towards Red Candy now? Hehe!). So you have the bland C-Max Energi, cool $aving$ tech but very boring otherwise. And the Focus EV, which has no gas engine at all, which I don't like (never want to risk being stranded or want to go somewhere I can't because it's all EV and then it's dead). So after my intial excitement at the new stuff, it still looks like I'm headed towards an MKZH. Love the looks, the tech, the fuel $aving$, etc etc. Just wish it had MyFord Touch, but it isn't a deal breaker. One thing I really liked about the newer electric vehicles they just showed is how they are developing the APP where you can remote start your car from anywhere, among other stuff. I'd love to be able to start my vehicle and warm it up before leaving work. But I park in a parking garage which is rather far from my store inside the mall. My remote start won't even reach my vehicle until I'm within several hundred feet of it. That would be a nice comfort feature, but again, isn't a deal breaker though it's something I'd love to have. So it looks like I'm back to deciding: White Platinum or Red Candy MKZH? :runaway:

But after seeing all the info on the new C-Max Hybrid, and most especially the C-Max Energi Plug-In Hybrid Electric; it's going to be almost impossible to seat myself in a current-gen FFH or MKZH now. Makes a lot more economical sense for me to hang on to my paid-off fully-loaded Platinum F-150 until Sept/Oct of 2012 when all these new vehicles will be hitting (including the new Fusion by that point as well). The C-Max doesn't wow me from the exterior, but the PHEV tech is very cool and could save a ton of money on fuel costs. I'll have to compare it to the new FFH when they introduce it, most likely at next years NAIAS, and make the best decision for me based on looks, comfort and of course pick the best fuel-$aving$ vehicle for myself as well. Very cool stuff, go check it out if you haven't already! :camera:

Unfortunately, they took away the manual button on the F-150 for the reverse sensor when they redesigned it in 2009. It's now in one of the dash screens as an option as you scroll through. Not nearly as easy to turn off within seconds of hearing the beeps. How have you found it, going from a full-size pickup truck to a car like the Fusion? Any troubles or regrets, things you miss, or things you've gained over the truck? Just curious, as I am seriously considering getting rid of my F-150 for a FFH or MKZH to save on fuel costs.

You're right about the price difference between the two. I'm still wavering back n forth between the two. I like the MKZH because of the better sound deadening, comfier ride/seating, and the HID headlamps and LED taillamps. But is it worth the extra cash for those items? Trying to decide. I intend to keep this car for at least 10 years so I want to be happy and enjoy it for such a long period of time. On the other hand, I'm buying it to save money on fuel so I can put more towards my mortgage payments each month, and the FFH would certainly cost less, thereby saving me some more cash. 10k average diff in price isn't a major amount of cash, yet it isn't chump change either. I just don't know. Since this will be your wife's car, and she doesn't like all the gadgets, obviuosly that would be a consideration for you that isn't the same for me, as this will be my car and I love all the gadgets. :P That could push me to the MKZH, where it might push you to the FFH, who knows. I did find out that the MKZH for 2011 has a new roof which helps it best the IIHS roof-safety-crash tests, which is nice if you think you might ever be in a rollover situation. I imagine they did the same for the 2011 FFH since it's basically the same car, but not 100% sure on that. As far as toyota, they've never impressed me. But it was never to do with reliability, I just never cared for their exterior designs, nor their interior fit, finish or quality. But I'm sure, as you stated, they make many relaible vehicles as well. To me, the FFH just looks more modern and fresh compared to the camry, but that's just my own personal taste of course. I was checking out the chevy volt the other day. Have you seen the interior of that thing? Very bizarre, like you're inside the space shuttle or something, very white and bland; another analogy might be like a hospital where everything is white, spartan, and clinical. Didn't care for that at all.

I'm in just the opposite frame of mind. The Fusion won 2010 Car Of The Year, and the Fusion Hybrid was picked by Consumer Reports as the #1 Most Reliable car of the year, with the regular gas version of the Fusion being the #2 Most Reliable car of the year. My only concern was going from a 4x4 pickup to a 2wd car for winter driving. Other than that I have zero qualms about picking up an FFH or MKZH. Just gotta decide either Ford or Lincoln, and either White Platinum or Red Candy. That Red Candy is starting to reallt grow on me for the MKZH, helps to dispel the old way of thinking when Lincolns were no-style vehicles just for old men with extra cash. The Red Candy really makes it "pop" and give a sportier, more youthful appearance. Then again, I do love the White Sand Tri-Coat on my '09 Platinum. Decisions, decisions. Oh, for what it's worth; I'd never consider a toyota of any kind. But that's just my opinion, obviously. If I didn't like the FFH/MKZH, I'd sooner look into a chevy volt or the ugly Escape for an MPG-Lite vehicle choice. In fact, Ford will most likely be showing some all-new Escape first photo's at the NAIAS next week. Let's hope this time it isn't butt ugly like the current one. There are also rumors they may give sneak peeks or early snippets of other MPG-Lite vehicle plans at the show as well. I'd love to hear something about the all-new '13 FFH/MKZH, but it's probably one year too early for that to materialize at the show yet.

:drop: That's no good for a 40k+ luxury car. Did you buy it off a dealer lot, or special order it? Perhaps sitting on the dealer lots the rotors got rusty. But then again, they would have squeeked from Day 1 if that was the case I'd imagine. I've always special ordered every vehicle I've bought, so I've never encountered any issues with any of the trucks I've ever owned. Hopefully the same will be the case if I order an MKZH in late March/early April.

For anyone who owns an MKZH, I can't seem to find any info on this. Does your driver seat & steering wheel move all the way back/up when you remove key? Then when you get in and insert key, does your driver seat/steering wheel move back into their positions you have set for yourself? My '09 F-150 Platinum does this, but can't recall what Ford calls it. It's one of those features you truly learn to love; and hate to do without once you have it. I'm sure the FFH doesn't have it, since the poor FFH doesn't even get memory seats! That's just crazy. But I though perhaps the MKZH might, but can't find any info on it anywhere. Thanks in advance. :) EDIT: After more searching, I found some downloadable owners guides for the MKZH. In small print in the Seating section, it details the memory functions of the driver's seat and how it will react to the remote transponder if the easy entry function is set to on. Sounded to me just like what I was looking for, because this feature is awesome on my '09 F-150, really makes egress and entry much easier even for a small thin person such as myself.

Congrats! I'll probably be joining all of you in May. Though I may go for the MKZH rather than the FFH; but who knows. Look forward to your more comprehensive review once you've had it a bit. :read:

MyFord Touch for one. There are also rumors that Ford will go to their 3rd generation hybrid battery's that they are working on now, making it lighter and more fuel efficient. They may also fit under the hood, making the rear seatback foldable. Plus the car itself will be smaller, based on the European Mondeo platform, again helping to make it get better MPG. Of course, if smaller isn't your thing, than an '11 or '12 would be a better buy. That's really the only complaint I've heard about the Fiesta so far, that because it's so small it can feel cramped and be a bit much for taller/larger individuals. I imagine the 2013 would also have push button start and the new remote start system that operates your heated seats, rear defrost, etc. The MKZ version would most likely have heated steering wheel. Of course, there is the mantra of, "If you always wait for the newest thing.... you'll be waiting forever, since there's always something newer and better right around the bend." At some point you gotta find what you like and buy it. My whole thing is trying to save lots of money so I can pay off my house I'm buying tomorrow as fast as possible. So do I really want to wait? I'm not sure. I still have a few months to decide, and the NAIAS is just a few weeks away; so we could hear some news & rumors once that hits as well. EDIT: All-New means they are redesigning the vehicle from the ground up. New (as in 2011 or 2012) just means it's new with a few minor updates, but nothing major. Ford is trying to get into a 3-year cycle for most of it's vehicles; not that it always happens but it's something to keep in mind. 2010-2012 is the current model of the FFH, 2013 being all-new.

I've owned 3 first year model Ford F-150's (1997, 2004 and currently 2009), no problems with any of them. And my fiance has a first year model Ford Edge, and she has had no problems either. I'm considering picking up an FFH or MKZH; and I suppose you could consider the MKZH a first year model, but I'm not concerned in the slightest about that. The only thing that worries me is winter driving in a hybrid and the fact that the all-new 2013 FFH isn't that far away now. And of course, the F-150 gets a brand-new EcoBoost engine for 2011, and the all-new Ford Explorer just hit, and those things are gorgeous too. And then there's the all-new 2012 Focus hitting this spring. Ford really is the king of awesome vehicles right now, for sure. Decisions, decisions... :headspin:

The base-price MKZH has less options than a loaded FFH, for basically the same price. I would buy an FFH fully-loaded for 31k before I even thought of getting a base MKZH for the same price, unless none of the cool tech goodies interest you of course. The MKZH differences really come in to play when you start to add-on the upgrade packages, especially the best one that includes NAV, Adaptive HID headlights, A/C seats, etc. Of course, that's also when the much higer price tag comes in to play as well. I'm leaning towards a fully-loaded MKZH myself, if for nothing else than the extreme interior quiet I keep hearing about in reviews. Then again, there are rumors out there that Ford may talk about some of its upcoming hybrid vehicles at the Detroit Auto Show in early january, so that could change my mind. And of course, the upcoming all-new 2013 FFH & MKZH are not that far away either. So many choices... :headspin:

Do you guys buy snow tires for the winter months? If it comes stock with LRR tires, they must be particularly terrible in the winter with no traction at all. I'd probably buy the best set of winter tires money could buy for the 3 bad months of the year if I pick up an FFH/MKZH.