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Battery saver message


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349 replies to this topic

#341 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 03:48 PM

The problem is that there are many microprocessors that must remain powered all of the time.  Alarm system, IA key transponders, keypad on the B post, etc.  Although the drain on the battery is small it is always there.  If the car is driven a lot of miles (more than 25) on a daily basis there should not be a problem.  If the car can sit for a week at a time without being driven then the 12 volt battery will be slowly discharged.  The design problem, IMHO as an electrical engineer, is that a wet cell lead acid battery was the wrong choice for this car.  Because of the way they are designed, for cars with starter motors, they are not meant to ever be discharged to less than about 80% SOC.  Their typical use is to supply a large burst of current to start the engine and then be immediately recharged.  When a "starter" battery is significantly discharged physical damage to the lead plates happens.  The damage can not be undone.  Material comes off of the plates and collects at the bottom of the cell.  When the pile of debris gets high enough to reach the bottom of the plates the cell shorts out and that is the end of the battery.  The better battery for this application is an AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery.  They are not damaged by low SOC levels and have a higher output voltage at low SOC levels.  I put one in my 2013 Energi and have not seen the low battery warning message since the installation.  It is not an easy installation because of the limited space.  I had to remove the battery tray and cut the end off of it to allow the larger AGM battery to fit.  The problem for Ford is that an AGM battery costs a lot more than a wet cell battery.  I have more than one car and the Energi can sit for a week without being driven.  I charge the 12 volt battery with a battery charger that has an AGM setting and can measure the SOC.  I have seen the SOC as low as 37% without getting the low battery warning.

 

While I agree that AGM batteries are much better than wet cell batteries I don't think the wet cells on their own are the root cause for the problem. I also agree the load from the electronics which are still powered up when the key is off is a contributing factor.  The FFH's small 12V battery size and battery quality issues are the main culprits.  The vast majority of cars sold today use wet cell batteries.  These cars also need to power loads when the key is off to run microprocessors, alarms, IA key transponders, keypads etc just like the FFH.  The difference is they have a larger standard size wet cell battery.

 

The FFH's engineers probably thought since the 12V battery does not need to run the starter they could get away with a smaller battery and save cost and weight.  They probably didn't think as much about the load on the battery over an extended period of time when the key is off. 

 

I also think the FFH batteries have had higher than normal quality problems.  The FFH 12V battery is smaller than a standard battery and there are probably a limited number of battery vendors that are set up to make this small battery.  So when Ford started seeing the battery quality issues it was not easy for them to just switch to another battery vendor to solve the quality issue.


Edited by Automate, 16 April 2015 - 03:50 PM.

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#342 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 05:02 PM

How long ago was that ?

 

I initially cut the battery tray in September 2013 and put in a full size wet cell battery.  That worked a lot better but my engineering mind decided that was a partial fix so in December 2013 I put in the AGM battery.



#343 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 05:11 PM

 

 The FFH 12V battery is smaller than a standard battery and there are probably a limited number of battery vendors that are set up to make this small battery.  So when Ford started seeing the battery quality issues it was not easy for them to just switch to another battery vendor to solve the quality issue.

 

That sounds logical but......a multitude of brands have AGMs for large lawn mowers and those aren't that different than the current crop of batteries in hybrids, either in size or capacity.

I think they likely will catch up soon.

Batteries Plus seems to be a leader in this regard.



#344 OFFLINE   LadyDi

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 06:47 AM

I have a 2013 FFH and I have had the same BS message problem now for 2.5 years.  They have replaced the battery now 3 times and no TSB have been applied.  I drive long distances 70 miles each way on the weekends(total 140 miles) and short hops during the week(less than 30 miles).  On Friday 1/22  I drove my 70 miles and then on Saturday I drove a few miles to do errands and then on Sunday 1/24  I drove 70 miles.  I didn't drive the car at all on Monday and on Tuesday, taking out the car out of the garage to do some work in the garage I got the BS message. I called the dealership once again and set up another appointment on that coming Friday 1/29.  I drove the car on Wednesday afternoon to the airport and left it overnight and by that Thursday night 1/28, I was stranded at the airport with a dead car battery.  I couldn't even unlock the doors.  I'm so sick of this. As a woman, I just don't feel secure thinking that this car is going to leave me stranded at any time.  Standing around waiting for road side assistance in a parking garage was an uneasy feeling.  I bought this new car for peace of mind.  The car is back at the dealership so we'll see what the next steps will be. I saw comments that the problem only happens when you only drive short distances is not true for my experience.


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#345 OFFLINE   Hybrider

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 02:38 PM

So as GrySql used to like to say, the FFH Forum strikes again.

 

As I mentioned recently in a different topic, my plan is to replace my 12V battery every two years, whether it is good or bad, just to ensure it doesn't go completely dead on me when I need it most. Well about 1 month before my FFH was 2 years old, I got my first Battery Saver Message (BSM). My FFH had been sitting for 3 weeks without being driven, so I was not too terribly surprised. But then after driving my FFH once again on a fairly regular basis, with no more than 4 days between drivings, I saw my second BSM occur upon me switching the car on recently.

 

So I took my FFH to the dealership to get my 12V battery replaced, and informed the SA I was not leaving without having a new battery installed. So they ran the standard quick cranking amps test, and it passed with such flying colors that my SA stated that he seriously doubted it would fail the load test, which he referred to as the "floor test". It seemed to only take them about 15-30 minutes to run the floor test, but the SA came back and said it failed the floor test, so I was covered under warranty.

 

So this Forum struck not once for me but 3 times, once for informing me how insidious the various problems can be that can result from having a 12V battery in a FFH going on the fritz, twice for informing that the BSMs can very well indicate a 12V battery in the FFH is going on the fritz, and thrice for informing there is such a thing as a more comprehensive load test and giving me the wherewithal to push them to run it, resulting in me getting a free battery before any other crazy low-12V_system symptoms started happening.

 

And now I have a new 3-year, unlimited mileage battery too. The SA said the original battery had a 3-year warranty also, but only 36K miles on the original battery warranty, the B2B warranty coverage.

 

Yay for the Forum...long live the Forum!


Edited by Hybrider, 19 February 2016 - 02:39 PM.

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2014 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE Ingot Silver (Appearance Package)

Ordered: 01/07/2014 | VIN assigned: 01/14/2014 | Window Sticker: 02/05/2014 | Build Date: 02/12/2014 | Arrived at Dealer: 02/25/2014 | Delivered: 02/27/2014


#346 OFFLINE   rvlasek

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 08:11 AM

What are my options for "Battery Saver message" problem.    Have had two batteries replaced already in three years of ownership.   Latest visit to dealership,  service associate says battery checks good, they said they ran intensive test on battery.  They told me to do not use my usb port with thumb drive for music and see how it does, This does not work still getting message every time I shut off vehicle.   The last time battery was replaced solved problem for about 14 months each time.  Must be something in the charging system software or possibly poor battery choice for this vehicle.  ANYONE have this problem solved???  Ford seems to have no fix for this.  I'm up to date on all TSB's on vehicle.  At a loss on this. Car runs great and great mpg,  but this issue is annoying and needs a fix... 


Edited by rvlasek, 23 April 2016 - 08:13 AM.

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#347 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 08:54 AM

Do you drive at least 25 contiguous miles every day?  If not, the battery will slowly run down.  There is a lot of permanent load from all of the computers.  When I am not going to use the car for a few days I hook up a battery charger that has a maintain mode.  The battery is too small, IMHO, for the load it is required to serve.  I replaced mine with a much bigger AGM battery but that is a major job which requires removing the battery tray and cutting the end off of it to make room for the longer battery.  It also runs down but an AGM battery maintains a much higher voltage as it discharges.  They also cost a lot more than the OEM battery.



#348 OFFLINE   LadyDi

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 10:13 AM

This is an update...  After my car dying and leaving me stranded because of the battery saver problem I took the car into the dealership(Greenway Ford in Orlando) once again and I think this time they have solved the problem.  Talking to the service manager they were working with Ford engineers and essentially they indicated that the hybrid battery was not talking to the regular battery therefore the regular battery was not telling the hybrid battery " hey, I'm getting low charge me".  They applied a fix to it and I will try to type in what they applied off the receipt.

 

  • Performed PPT, R&I Rear video camera, perform SSM 44624
  • Reprogram BCM(Body Control Module)  to latest software level "MTBCM"
  • Camera - Rear View Parking - R & I

I have to say, I have had the car sitting in the garage for almost 2 weeks without starting because I was out of town and I came back and the car started with no problem.  In the past in 3 days I already had the Battery saver message.  The car was repaired on 2/17/16 and still no problems.  Still crossing my fingers because this has been such a major ordeal.  Hope this helps someone.


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#349 OFFLINE   mwr

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 11:19 AM

Do you drive at least 25 contiguous miles every day?  If not, the battery will slowly run down.

I don't drive 25 contiguous miles every day, and recently the car sat for six days. Never had a problem starting.


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#350 OFFLINE   Hybrider

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 02:00 PM

It all depends on the age and condition of the battery how much abuse it can take and still perform normally.


2014 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE Ingot Silver (Appearance Package)

Ordered: 01/07/2014 | VIN assigned: 01/14/2014 | Window Sticker: 02/05/2014 | Build Date: 02/12/2014 | Arrived at Dealer: 02/25/2014 | Delivered: 02/27/2014





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