Dead 12 Volt Battery - 2013 Fusion Hybrid

[smr2112]

For my own edification, was just curious about AGM batteries, I see that a bunch of companies make these

and some are size 96R and 99R (which is the Hybrid's right size?).

 

Of course you would not want to swap out the existing battery lightly as it has different characteristics and

load capability, etc. So proceed at your own risk.

 

Here is one I found...pricey but if it really solved the problem, it would be great.

 

There is a 96R and 99R that lists if you lookup of Fusion Hybrid

 

http://www.powerstridebattery.com/bci-group-96r-odyssey-pc1200mjt-battery

[hybridbear]

I would want to have the dealer reprogram the BCM anytime you change the 12V battery. As GrySql posted in the factoids thread the car has a complex monitoring system for the 12V battery. The system has a number of parameters which the dealer can configure using IDS. They include things like: battery model, CCA, etc. This allows the BCM to calculate 12V SOC with a greater degree of accuracy so that it knows how to charge the 12V battery and when to turn on the BS Message and shut systems down to prevent a dead battery from occurring. If you change the 12V battery to one with different specs and don't update the BCM you may have issues. The BCM also tracks the 12V battery age and can adjust its charging algorithm as the 12V battery ages and thus may have less capacity. This is why we're not supposed to charge the 12V by connecting a charger directly to the battery. Doing so can mess up the sensor that's attached to the negative terminal.

[Barsoom]

This is why we're not supposed to charge the 12V by connecting a charger directly to the battery. Doing so can mess up the sensor that's attached to the negative terminal.

I never understood this. I'm no electrician, but isn't the circuit connected in a way that it doesn't matter if the charge is connected directly to the negative post or to something else that is connected to the negative post? The elections flow through the post just the same regardless of where they entered the circuit? Unless there is a voltage regulator somewhere between the under the hood posts and the battery posts, what difference does it make?

[acdii]

I never understood this. I'm no electrician, but isn't the circuit connected in a way that it doesn't matter if the charge is connected directly to the negative post or to something else that is connected to the negative post? The elections flow through the post just the same regardless of where they entered the circuit? Unless there is a voltage regulator somewhere between the under the hood posts and the battery posts, what difference does it make?

There is a module attached to the negative terminal that the computers use to monitor the batteries condition. As with jump starting a car you never connect to both terminals, but ground the negative to the body or some other part under the hood.

[GrySql]

I never understood this. I'm no electrician, but isn't the circuit connected in a way that it doesn't matter if the charge is connected directly to the negative post or to something else that is connected to the negative post? The elections flow through the post just the same regardless of where they entered the circuit? Unless there is a voltage regulator somewhere between the under the hood posts and the battery posts, what difference does it make?

See this:

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/5885-dead-12-volt-battery-2013-fusion-hybrid/?p=95920

[milleron]

Very interesting reading, although I don't truly understand it. It seems that the negative cable of the charger is electrically connected to the negative post of the battery whether it's attached under the hood or on the battery post, but that's just my intuition talking. I've no knowledge of electrical engineering, so I can just accept the explanation without understanding it. However, it raises another question.

Does anyone know about connecting a solar trickle charger directly to the battery posts? It's easy to leave such a device under the rear window behind the rear seats. In that position, it's not difficult to get cables to the battery itself, but I can't really think of a simple way to get its cables to the engine-compartment posts from inside the car. It seems that if one wanted to leave a solar charger attached while the car's sitting, for example, in an airport parking lot for 10 days, the only practical way to do it is at the battery posts. Could the very small current from such a trickle charger damage the sensor?

[GrySql]

Very interesting reading, although I don't truly understand it. It seems that the negative cable of the charger is electrically connected to the negative post of the battery whether it's attached under the hood or on the battery post, but that's just my intuition talking. I've no knowledge of electrical engineering, so I can just accept the explanation without understanding it. However, it raises another question.

Does anyone know about connecting a solar trickle charger directly to the battery posts? It's easy to leave such a device under the rear window behind the rear seats. In that position, it's not difficult to get cables to the battery itself, but I can't really think of a simple way to get its cables to the engine-compartment posts from inside the car. It seems that if one wanted to leave a solar charger attached while the car's sitting, for example, in an airport parking lot for 10 days, the only practical way to do it is at the battery posts. Could the very small current from such a trickle charger damage the sensor?

What I posted was what Ford has laid down as their official rules of how battery charging is supposed to be done when serviced by technicians.

I really can't recommend something that they say not to do.

 

OTOH, I know a few members here use solar panels for charging the LVB and we haven't heard any issues from them.

Bypassing the negative battery post and using a body grounding point may be how they do it.

 

YMMV

---

The Battery Monitoring Sensor looks like this, the part in blue:

[Barsoom]

There is a module attached to the negative terminal that the computers use to monitor the batteries condition. As with jump starting a car you never connect to both terminals, but ground the negative to the body or some other part under the hood.

 

I understand, but the negative post is still connected to the ground, too, to complete the circuit. So it's an equivalent connection.

 

It shouldn't matter if the charger is connected to the chassis frame on the negative battery post.

 

The only explanation I have seen is to avoid the chance of sparks from contact igniting escaping gases from the battery by connecting a jumper cable away from the battery when completing the circuit.

 

For my situation, I'm connecting a 12 volt 400mA trickle charger, so I doubt there is enough current to cause harm. When jumping, of course I use the front posts because the current coming from another car is much higher.

[acdii]

Well the main reason there are studs under the hood is if the battery is dead, you cant really open the trunk without dropping the back seats and crawling in. It is much easier to pop the hood open. The other reason is it is easy to damage the sensor on the battery. Jumper clamps can easily snap it if they are not put on carefully.

[smr2112]

I have not gotten my car back from the dealership yet today for the BSM, but I did get an early morning

call from the SM who said it was all fixed. Did not question anything I said.

 

They did the TSB for reprogramming the 12V charging for cold weather and the battery also tested

bad - so they replaced it with one that is not 3 years in life, but 5 years life. Is this newer one higher capacity?

I don't know the part number yet, but that all sounded good to me. Even though they could not reproduce

the cold weather conditions, they did the reprogram anyway. It had been shutting off in seconds during

Feb/Mar - but lately would stay on for 5+ minutes after engine shutoff. He was not at all surprised that

the battery in that car had degraded so rapidly.

 

My build date was late-March 2013 I believe.

[smr2112]

BTW, the new 12V I got was is shown with the original below it. This battery is a Ford Motorcraft MAX battery, 3 yrs free replacement,

100 months warranty. I believe the quality and design of these (although not perfect) should do much better in the FFH. The

design of the lead plates is supposely higher grade and should not sulfate as easily. An AGM would have been better.

 

I did not ask the dealer for any specific part, they also did the TSB to reprogram for cold weather charging. The one in

there tested bad where 2 other (different) dealer visits said it was fine. IMHO, it takes the hybrid mechanic, not

the everyday mechanic to yank the battery out of the car and load test it. Having it tested on a Saturday and not

leaving it for the day is an issue as the general mechanics do not understand the hybrid quirks as well as good

hybrid mechanic will.

 

As others have said, the original batteries were junk for this car anyway, who knows it was a bad design or

not really the right part for the car, but others should be aware. I saw the full bill and it was a good $400

worth of parts and labor for just the battery. Since is exactly the same. So anybody looking to do it yourself

and not get a warranty replacement, this new part is what you want.

 

My build date was March 2013

 

BXT-99RT4-A (New One)

BXT-99R-390 (Original)

[GrySql]

 

BTW, the new 12V I got was is shown with the original below it. This battery is a Ford Motorcraft MAX battery, 3 yrs free replacement,

100 months warranty. I believe the quality and design of these (although not perfect) should do much better in the FFH. The

design of the lead plates is supposely higher grade and should not sulfate as easily. An AGM would have been better.

 

I did not ask the dealer for any specific part, they also did the TSB to reprogram for cold weather charging. The one in

there tested bad where 2 other (different) dealer visits said it was fine. IMHO, it takes the hybrid mechanic, not

the everyday mechanic to yank the battery out of the car and load test it. Having it tested on a Saturday and not

leaving it for the day is an issue as the general mechanics do not understand the hybrid quirks as well as good

hybrid mechanic will.

 

As others have said, the original batteries were junk for this car anyway, who knows it was a bad design or

not really the right part for the car, but others should be aware. I saw the full bill and it was a good $400

worth of parts and labor for just the battery. Since is exactly the same. So anybody looking to do it yourself

and not get a warranty replacement, this new part is what you want.

 

My build date was March 2013

 

BXT-99RT4-A (New One)

BXT-99R-390 (Original)

 

The labor charge is high because, if done correctly, the Tech is supposed to reprogram the BCM to the new battery's spec's. See Post #203 above.

Glad you got things sorted out!

[TonyHzNV]

The labor charge is high because, if done correctly, the Tech is supposed to reprogram the BCM to the new battery's spec's. See Post #203 above.

Glad you got things sorted out!

Well, GrySql, looks like that new battery (p/n -A) we were curious about is starting to show up in dealerships!

[jdbob]

I understand, but the negative post is still connected to the ground, too, to complete the circuit. So it's an equivalent connection.

 

It shouldn't matter if the charger is connected to the chassis frame on the negative battery post.

 

The negative post is not connected directly to ground. It goes through a low-value resistance in the battery monitor module so it can measure the current going in and out of the battery.

 

Either this exact part, or one similar to it is used: http://products.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/de/_technik/component/CO_CV_ES_Body-Electronics_CO_CV_Electronic-Systems_2202.html?compId=1175

 

Some more information: http://microsite.bosch.com.cn/ebrochures2015/energizing_powertrain/electronica_battery_sensor_en.pdf

Edited May 4, 2015 by jdbob

[Barsoom]

Thanks for that information. My solar trickle charger produces a maximum current of 400mA @ 12V. The likely current is much lower, given clouds and angle to the sun. I just want to compensate for the "always on" nature of the monitoring computers, so I don't expect this amount of current to be noticeable against the normal current flow through the battery.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Barsoom

[lolder]

I will chime in and IMHO trickle chargers are almost always a bad idea. They frequently reduce the life of the battery.

[GrySql]

I will chime in and IMHO trickle chargers are almost always a bad idea. They frequently reduce the life of the battery.

What do you think of the one I have?

http://www.batterytender.com/Chargers/Battery-Tender-Junior-12V-0-75A.html

[hybridbear]

I will chime in and IMHO trickle chargers are almost always a bad idea. They frequently reduce the life of the battery.

Why? What causes them to reduce battery life? Do they overcharge the battery?

[GrySql]

Why? What causes them to reduce battery life? Do they overcharge the battery?

I'd guess because a solar trickle charger does not 'think' and charge properly.

These Battery Tender's are programmed for:

• Complete 4-step charging program (Initialization, Bulk Charge, Absorption Mode, Float Mode).

• Automatically switches to float / maintenance voltage after fully charging the battery.

[Barsoom]

I'd guess because a solar trickle charger does not 'think' and charge properly.

These Battery Tender's are programmed for:

Complete 4-step charging program (Initialization, Bulk Charge, Absorption Mode, Float Mode).

Automatically switches to float / maintenance voltage after fully charging the battery.

While I would tend to agree with you regarding using a solar charger with no charge controller, the going-in premise here is that this battery is near dead to begin with, hence the BS message immediately after turning off the car and a dead battery after leaving the car at the airport for a week.

 

Over-charging the battery is the least of my concerns. Getting and keeping it at a basic functional charge is my goal.

 

P.S. The one that I got I found on the Battery Saver Message thread, link to the post here: http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/6511-battery-saver-message/page-15?do=findComment&comment=82977

Edited May 4, 2015 by Barsoom

[GrySql]

While I would tend to agree with you regarding using a solar charger with no charge controller, the going-in premise here is that this battery is near dead to begin with, hence the BS message immediately after turning off the car and a dead battery after leaving the car at the airport for a week.

 

Over-charging the battery is the least of my concerns. Getting and keeping it at a basic functional charge is my goal.

Gotcha, my accessories shut down after 2-3 seconds 90% of the time and it's been like this for almost two years. I never get the BS message though, hard to explain.

[lolder]

The "Battery Tender" doesn't fit my idea of a trickle charger and it's probably OK. I'm really not a battery expert but I've heard of sulfation and electrolyte stratification and I think they and more detrimental things happen to our hybrid 12 vdc batteries. The failure of the green ball to appear often in fully charged batteries points to electrolyte stagnation. The steady load when off pulls the terminal voltage down much more than would be expected for a given specific gravity / SOC condition. I think lead acid batteries don't like small currents in or out. The NiCad, NiMH, LiIon batteries frequently have chargers that charge in pulses of diminishing length as their charge approaches full. The current during each pulse is substantial.

Edited May 20, 2015 by lolder

[GrySql]

My battery has done the '2 second shutdown' with the power outlets for years without showing the BS message.

A month ago I parked my FFH for a week and it started right up. I planned to leave it parked for an additional 2 weeks so I attached my Battery Tender to the underhood charging points.

Last week I put the FFH back in service after two weeks on the Battery Tender. So far for the last week my power outlet devices (GPS, Dashcam) don't shut off when I turn the car off, they act normal again - I have to manually power them down.

 

What happened, and why? Another 12v battery puzzle.

[Texasota]

Was this the first time it was on a battery tender for a continuous two weeks?

[GrySql]

Was this the first time it was on a battery tender for a continuous two weeks?

Yes, never tried charging it since I had the BS TSB done in 2013.

Prior to that I'd charged it with my big fancy charger/conditioner and still got the BS message.

 

It's a mixed blessing, I was used to the GPS and Dashcam shutting down before I got out of the car, now I have to remember to turn them off. ;)