When should Regen engage?

[Intensesense]

I'm have driven two different FFH in the past week. The first was 2015 se the second a 2016 titanium. The 2015 Regen did not engage untill I put pressure on the brake pedal, but the 2016 engages as soon as I release the throttle pedal. Which one is functioning properly?

[murphy]

Assuming a hybrid works the same as an Energi, putting the gear selector in L puts regen on the accelerator pedal in addition to the brake pedal. In D regen is only on the brake pedal.

[Waldo]

Both are. Ford made a change in 2016 to make regen more aggressive.

[Cobra348]

Both are. Ford made a change in 2016 to make regen more aggressive.

Yup ... agreed. I had a '15 before the current '17. Very different scenarios to get regen to kick in.

[One]

Thus on new models regen is working when you do not depress the gas pedal.

What is happening when you depress the brake? Regen first and then (if you keep pushing) the brake pads ?

 

 

2014 quote from a Ford dealer website: "So how exactly does it capture that energy and use it to charge the battery? Well, when the brake pedal is pushed down, the electric motor goes to work and spins "in the opposite direction that the wheels are spinning in. The reversal of the wheels turns the vehicle into a power generator that produces electrical energy, and as we stated earlier, that electricity is routed to the battery of the vehicle which helps to keep the electric motor working for longer periods of time. At higher speeds the traditional brake pads are still necessary to bring the hybrids to a stop safely, but the regenerative braking system runs regardless."

 

[Cobra348]

On my '15, regen began when I touched the brake pedal and proceeded like you have in the description. On my '17, once I lift my foot from the gas pedal, if conditions allow, regen happens ... as well as brake pedal usage.

 

On both cars there was a "Power Flow" under the "Apps" button in the center stack screen. This would show status of battery (charge/discharge), drive (electric/hybrid) and a little more. Using this or watching the battery icon in the left screen you can know when regen is happening. TBH the battery icon is a whole lot less distracting. The app is for a short "Oh,, wow!" moment for your passengers.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Cobra348

[murphy]

In a 2013 Energi putting the car in L adds the regen to the accelerator pedal. There is a dead point where there is neither acceleration nor regen. Pushing on the pedal from this point accelerates Pulling back from this point decelerates. The deceleration strength can be modulated with the pedal. This is exactly the way a Tesla works.

[mwr]

In my 2015 FFH, regen happens if you lift you foot from the gas pedal. It doesn't appear as the "shimmering" effect as when you apply the brakes, but it nevertheless happens and you can see the HVB is charging.

[billford]

On my '15, regen began when I touched the brake pedal and proceeded like you have in the description. On my '17, once I lift my foot from the gas pedal, if conditions allow, regen happens ... as well as brake pedal usage.

 

 

 

Which one has better fuel economy, the 15 or 17?

[Cobra348]

 

Which one has better fuel economy, the 15 or 17?

The following is my own opinion and does not reflect that of others. IMO the '15 had better fuel economy.

 

2015 FFH Titanium:

From 4/14/15 to 8/31/16

Miles: 38603

MPG (avg/low/high): 41.25 / 26.22 / 52.02.

Source: gas receipts on all fill-ups.

Gas brands used: Sunoco, Valero, Citgo, Kwikfill, Sheetz - 87 octane on all

 

2017 FFH SE:

From 8/31/16 to present

Miles: 41923

MPG (avg/low/high)" 38.95 / 20.00 / 56.22

Source: same as above

Gas brands used: All except Sheetz - 87 octane

 

IMO, there is a difference between the models in the usage of the ICE - when it kicks in, duration, etc. To me, it seems that ICE starts up at a higher SOC on the 17 over the 15. When using cruise, I do not use ECO mode as I tested that and non-ECO over 2000 miles or so and found the non-ECO delivered slightly better MPG (like .1 or .2). Again, that's my opinion.

 

I do not hypermile religiously and in fact many times I drive like I stole the car. My typical long distance runs are about 5 MPH over limit whenever possible. I do start braking/slowing further back to allow for longer regen. I don't jackrabbit on starts and in city driving I do actually let electric drive get me to about 20 MPH in many instances.

 

In both, the roads taken and trips driven are pretty much the same. Low MPG is from Winter driving conditions. The '15 did multiple trips to PA (Sheetz gas), whereas the '17 has done runs to FL.

 

CAVEAT REPEAT: These are just my opinions based on gas receipts, butt dyno and so forth. Others will report different experiences I am sure.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Cobra348

[One]

Thanks for your reply.

I do not think it is possible (for me) to do 20 mpg with a hybrid sedan. Never did such a low mpg with my Nissan Rogue 2.5 FWD.

 

Still do not know if brake pads will react as soon as you touch the brake pedal or later.

 

What's the meaning of 95 - 100% regen indication?

Explanation such "you recovered 98% of what can be recovered" are not for engineers.

[murphy]

It is not possible to recover all of the energy. 100% recovery means that you got 100% of what it is possible to recover.

 

The brake pads do not react to the initial pressure on the brake pedal. It takes practice to get maximum regen braking without engaging the brake pads.

[One]

I do not like they show 100% on the display and I would like to know when is regen only vs regen+brake pads.

What should we practice if we do not know when brake pads are active?

Braking as gentle as possible is common sense....

 

Off topic: is navigation update free of charge? My brand new 2019 FFH cannnot find my address ;(

[Cobra348]

I do not like they show 100% on the display and I would like to know when is regen only vs regen+brake pads.

What should we practice if we do not know when brake pads are active?

Braking as gentle as possible is common sense....

 

Off topic: is navigation update free of charge? My brand new 2019 FFH cannnot find my address ;(

First, that 20 MPG was a tank during a stretch of bitterly cold weather where I used remote start a lot. The range of 26-28 is about right ... traction losses, going thru unplowed areas, ICE running more frequently to keep warm, etc. When weather warms up mileage goes up very rapidly.

 

Braking ... it is my understanding that when you just touch the brake pedal, the lights in the rear come on and engine/transmission regen begins. As you press, you'll feel when the mechanical brakes start working. It is possible to get 100% regen in some cases, but I normally run closer to 90%. If all you do is city driving at 30 MPH or less, it is possible to get 100% many more times than not.

 

Nav ... no idea but I can tell you this: my home address is known to EMS, Post Office, FedEx, Voter Reg, DMV and is very visible on Google Earth. But UPS insists it does not exist because it isn't in their database of addresses. Kicker is that they know my neighbors address and it's a different apartment number but same street address. And both of the townhouses (mine and neighbors) are 1992 construction, so relatively new. Go figger. <sigh>

Edited December 28, 2018 by Cobra348

[ethermion]

The braking/regen discussion is pretty much my understanding, so I can't offer anything additional.

 

Are navigation updates free? The answer is no, map updates are not free. My sales dude told me yes, but he also told me the spare tire was under "there".

[md13ffhguy]

Are navigation updates free? The answer is no, map updates are not free. My sales dude told me yes, but he also told me the spare tire was under "there".

First time around, in 2013, I was frustrated with Ford Sync because my salesman told me the same... free downloadable map updates AND apps!

 

This time around, I have Android Auto... Much happier! Google Maps FTW.

[One]

The salesman told me also they will deliver the basic tools for replacing a wheel..... Did you experience any flat tyre ?

I do have a concern about the hybrid battery capacity. 1.4 kWH is small compared to competition and a bigger battery gives you more possibilities to regen and drive on EV.

[ethermion]

My last flat tire (tyre) was in the early 80s. My wife has never had a flat. My brother had one with low profile tires, 40s or smaller, after kissing a pothole and bending the rim. My sister has never had a flat. None of my 4 children ever had a flat. I'm old school, so it creeps me out to not have a spare, but flats appear to be an endangered species.

 

Battery size, I dunno the competition. I do know that our 13 FFH is by far the best car I ever owned. We get great mileage - around 45mpg. Batteries are heavy, so there is a balance to be made. Heavy = less mpg. Having replaced a car with a 17 gallon tank that lasted 4 days, to our FFH with a 13 gallon tank that lasts two weeks makes us giggle with delight. It is my wife's car. My wife is a girlie girl. Gas is dirty and smelly. If I am an attentive husband, and borrow her car for errands on the weekend, I'll top off her tank. She might go months without having to pump herself. And, she has range anxiety, which is fixed. Happiness.

 

I also know that the Energi plug-in has bigger batteries, and basically a non functional trunk. I like having a functional trunk. No dreaming of a bigger battery here.

 

I do give Ford credit for being the first (I think) to use lithium-ion batteries, which are meaningfully superior to the nickle metal hydride batteries in every other hybrid at the time. While Boeing had a tough time with the same battery technology in the 787s, Ford got it right. And, a battery endeavors to be a lot of energy in a small space. Dynamite is also a lot of energy in a small space. More onboard is not necessarily desirable.

 

Happy New Year to all!

[Cobra348]

...<snip>... I'm old school, so it creeps me out to not have a spare, but flats appear to be an endangered species.

 

Battery size, I dunno the competition. I do know that our 13 FFH is by far the best car I ever owned. We get great mileage - around 45mpg. Batteries are heavy, so there is a balance to be made. Heavy = less mpg. Having replaced a car with a 17 gallon tank that lasted 4 days, to our FFH with a 13 gallon tank that lasts two weeks makes us giggle with delight. It is my wife's car. My wife is a girlie girl. Gas is dirty and smelly. If I am an attentive husband, and borrow her car for errands on the weekend, I'll top off her tank. She might go months without having to pump herself. And, she has range anxiety, which is fixed. Happiness.

 

I also know that the Energi plug-in has bigger batteries, and basically a non functional trunk. I like having a functional trunk. No dreaming of a bigger battery here.

 

...<snip>...Happy New Year to all!

Spare tire ... I'm with you. I used the shopping list here to get all the pieces brand new when i got my '15. Use invoice part# for the correct dealer catalog number. Cheaper option is salvage yard and get all the pieces from a 2013+ gas model. I put the "mobility kit" in the garage. When I traded it, everything I had done went back to EOM and then I redid all the installations on my '17.

 

Battery size ... I assume we're talking HVB? In the FFH I believe it is somewhere around 1.75 KWh and the Energi is 7+ KWh. What I have seen of HVB sizes (and ICE) in Malibu hybrid, Prius and Insight the numbers are around 1.5 KWh with ICE size in the 1.5 to 1.8 liter range. I will say that Malibu (at least) must stuff the HVB under the rear seat or something as trunk space even on hybrid is 15 cubic feet as compared to FFH 12. That's about the size of the HVB. <shrug>

 

Have a safe and sane New Year all!

[One]

Regerative braking: Is it any way to adjust it? As you probably know hybrid Hondas have 3-4 levels and Prius has the B gear shift.

 

I assume that Hill Descent button will increase the regen braking..... sometimes I feel it, sometimes not. I did not find anything about in the owner's manual.

 

What do you think ?

Edited October 1, 2019 by One

[mwr]

I don't know any way to adjust regen braking. The feature you asked about is called Grade Assist. It's on page 178 of the owner's manual (PDF file) for my 2015 FFH. It says:

----------------------

Grade Assist
To activate Grade Assist, press the button on the gearshift lever. The grade assist indicator light will illuminate in the instrument display.
The grade assist feature:
• Provides additional grade braking with a combination of engine motoring and high-voltage battery charging to help maintain vehicle speed when descending a grade.
• As your vehicle determines the amount of engine motoring and high-voltage battery charging, you may notice the engine speed increasing and/or decreasing to help maintain your vehicle speed while descending a grade. To deactivate Grade Assist, press the button on the gearshift lever when Grade Assist is active. The grade assist light will deactivate.

----------------------

I find that it works exactly that way and holds the downhill speed very well. If you brake and slow down, leaving GA engaged, it will then work to hold the new slower speed.

Edited October 1, 2019 by mwr

[Waldo]

If you want more regen braking, press the brake pedal. That's what it's for. What you're asking for is more deceleration without brake lights on. That's dangerous to anyone driving behind you.

 

You're 2019 already has more throttle off regen than my 2014, but it's really just a balance between the 2 pedals. You can get regen with light throttle on and no brake, with no pedals at all, and with light-medium brake.

 

Grade assist will use the compression of the engine to help hold you on hills. It won't give you any more regen than you could get if you were using the brake pedal.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Waldo

[One]

This is interesting, I never considered it. Slowing without brake light is dangerous..... It means hybrid Hondas are dangerous, Prius is dangerous, Diesel cars are dangerous (do you know the engine brake you can get on a manual transmission diesel when you switch to 3rd or 2nd....?).

[Cobra348]

This is interesting, I never considered it. Slowing without brake light is dangerous..... It means hybrid Hondas are dangerous, Prius is dangerous, Diesel cars are dangerous (do you know the engine brake you can get on a manual transmission diesel when you switch to 3rd or 2nd....?).

With the adaptive cruise, brake lights do come on if needed. I know this because I was driving in the dark in my '17 and going downhill, the cruise activated the brakes ... saw the red reflection on the car behind me. I know as well that the newer adaptive cruise with stop&go does activate the brakes (and lights) quite nicely.

 

If I need to decrease speed and am using the cruise, I simply start reducing the speed setting, thus forcing the brakes to come on. If not running cruise and it's a small decrease needed, I do coast down but have my foot over the brake.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Cobra348

[JClintB]

On my 19 Fusion SE Hybrid,  regen comes on as soon as I take my foot off the accelerator, as in coasting. The actual brake pedal has nothing to do with regenerating the battery. It's all did through the electric motor in the transmission.  If you don't have Eco mode turned on then the regen holds back the car which slows if down , but if you do have Eco mode on, then the hold back is much stronger which slows the car even faster.  To test this just be going down hill and switch between Eco on and off, you will feel a big difference.  Eco on holds back stronger and seems to regenerate more power to the HVB than Eco off does.