Regen Braking Issue When Turning

[lolder]

From following these threads, it appears that these events occur most often when turning, braking and when one wheel encounters a surface with less traction such as a grate, cobblestones or pothole. The system is balancing the regen and mechanical braking in the turn and perceives the need for some ABS action. This is a software problem that needs a remedy.

Edited October 21, 2015 by lolder

[hybridbear]

From following these threads, it appears that these events occur most often when turning, braking and when one wheel encounters a surface with less traction such as a grate, cobblestones or pothole.

There is no change in surface. The surging happens on perfectly smooth, dry pavement. It would not be surprising or an issue if it happened on uneven surfaces. It is an issue because it happens on flat, smooth, dry surfaces.

[GrySql]

From following these threads, it appears that these events occur most often when turning, braking and when one wheel encounters a surface with less traction such as a grate, cobblestones or pothole. The system is balancing the regen and mechanical braking in the turn and perceives the need for some ABS action. This is a software problem that needs a remedy.

I think we agree that it is a software problem. Some cars may have this issue, some may not; some people don't notice, some people do; some people are qualified to understand the issue, some aren't.

 

In this specific case HB has the facts on his computer readout, he is a qualified observer and in tune with his car, much more than most drivers are. He does not make wild accusations and his argument is based on valid experience and facts, he has owned FFH's and this FFE. He investigates before he says things and his comments about problems are done in a professional manner.

This issue has been reported many times in this Topic alone, it is not a fantasy dreamed up by some uninformed, over reacting drivers.

I imagine Ford is aware of this but keeps the facts secret until the 'next' PCM update, or something of the sort. We've had a lot of updates and while I am guessing, I doubt if a complete list of the real corrections are published publicly (I don't blame Ford if that is true).

In HB's case his regen braking problem started after a PCM update. It would be nice if Ford would get moving on this and issue a correction, although that may not be as easy as it sounds.

 

Having a Ford engineer report false or misleading findings does not help Fords credibility.

Edited October 21, 2015 by GrySql

[Texasota]

I imagine Ford is aware of this but keeps the facts secret until the 'next' PCM update, or something of the sort. We've had a lot of updates and while I am guessing, I doubt if a complete list of the real corrections are published publicly (I don't blame Ford if that is true).

I think this is true and not only in the automotive industry. It is true in the software industry and in particular operating systems software. Revealing details on what is being fixed in some cases would cause unwarranted worry and overreaction resulting in more damage that the actual problem itself.

[corncobs]

There is no change in surface. The surging happens on perfectly smooth, dry pavement. It would not be surprising or an issue if it happened on uneven surfaces. It is an issue because it happens on flat, smooth, dry surfaces.

While I agree that it can happen on flat, dry surfaces it's much more likely and noticeable on uneven or wet surface.

Anyway it's the same base problem with one wheel turning faster than the other causing the interruption in regen-braking.

[hybridbear]

While I agree that it can happen on flat, dry surfaces it's much more likely and noticeable on uneven or wet surface.

Anyway it's the same base problem with one wheel turning faster than the other causing the interruption in regen-braking.

When braking on an uneven surface the tires may momentarily lose contact with the road surface. This could lead to a tire locking up when it is not in contact with the pavement. This would trigger the ABS to kick in, removing regen. This is normal behavior. It doesn't matter if you're going straight or turning for this feeling on rough pavement. You will feel a lurch in this situation because the tire(s) are losing contact with the pavement. Tires cannot provide stopping power when they are airborne. This is not the issue we are discussing here. Let's please not confuse this "operating as designed" behavior with what is described in this thread.

 

When braking and turning, the "operating as designed" behavior appears to be that when the difference in wheel speed reaches a certain threshold, the car reduces regen braking & blends in the friction brakes. This transition should be seamless & imperceptible. Since our car had the 14S21 & 15E03 recalls completed this transition has become perceptible. This is the issue. The car is "operating as designed" to reduce regen while turning, the problem is that there is now a momentary delay between when regen is reduced and when the friction brakes are engaged. There shouldn't be a delay. The transition should be smooth & unnoticeable. Had any of us noticed that regen braking goes away when turning before this? No, we hadn't. That shows that the transition was working properly for everyone in the beginning. It's only recently that these issues have begun to be reported.

 

Either way, I'm done with it. We'll be getting rid of the Fusion next summer when the Focus Electric lease ends & I will never buy another Ford product. Ford is now on my black list of automobile manufacturers, along with Toyota for their stupid promotion of fuel cells.

[FordService]

...

 

Hello... @FordService... are you there??? I sure miss Ashley. She was our first FordService rep on the forum & she seemed to be the only one who actually cared & bothered to try. Remember all the things Ashley found out for us?? Oil viscosity, detailed technical explanations of how things worked... The cynical side of me thinks that she did too good a job of providing customer service so Ford took her away.

 

I'm here, I promise. I still talk to Ashley on occasion (she works with schools now), and I'll be more than happy to let her know how much she's missed. The way we get our information is a little different now than when she was here, so I'm not always able to get the same level of detail she could.

 

I don't work directly with engineers, but I can send this up to your customer service manager to see if there's anything on their end. Please send me your VIN, mileage, best daytime phone number, full name, and dealer name/location. I'll work through your posts to make the case notes, but if there are key items you want to make sure I document, please let me know.

 

Meagan

[lolder]

There was a discussion over five years ago on the older FFH forum that the downfall of these cars might be the nature of the independent dealer service system and it's inability in the light of the opaque closed software nature of the cars to repair or solve problems. We have seen that many times. Tesla's model may become the future.

[hybridbear]

I received a phone call from someone at Ford this morning. They said that the engineer's decision is final & that Ford will not investigate this any further. He said the case is closed. I tried to tell him that the information written by the engineer is factually inaccurate. He said that Ford stands behind their engineers & they will not change their decision.

Edited October 23, 2015 by hybridbear

[tr7driver]

Boo Ford!

[GrySql]

Boo Ford!

+1

[corncobs]

Boo Ford!

+1

[FernMTL]

Seems like an known issue for a few of us. Me, it happens almost everytime time I turn left while braking under 30 km/h. That's everytime I enter my driveway. Happens a few time on a straight line. Feels like there's no more baking power for a fraction of second (like the car was sliding).

I bet It's similar to your symptoms?

[hybridbear]

Ron Powell was the CSM who called. His customer service was terrible. I tried to explain to him that the data used by the engineer to reach his conclusion was incorrect. I asked him, how can we fix this inaccuracy? He said, "Ford stands by our engineers. We will not review this any further. The engineer felt his data was accurate & that is the position of Ford."

 

I'd encourage everyone with this issue to do an NHTSA report. If you have a supportive dealer, like ours, I'd also ask that you please have the dealer report this issue to Ford.

 

I will be contacting a lemon law attorney. I have data that proves that this behavior is not normal & isn't present in all vehicles. But Ford doesn't want to listen.

[hybridbear]

TEST DROVE VEHICLE WITH CUSTOMER. THE CUSTOMER STATES HE CAN FEEL TRANSITION FROM REGEN BRAKING AND HYDRAULIC BRAKING. WHEN DRIVING WITH THE CUSTOMER, THE DRIVING INVOLVED SHARP TURNS AT 15-20 MPH, NEARING AN ABS EVENT. DURING SOME PORTIONS, STEERING ANGLE EXCEEDED 400 DEGREES. THE TRANSITION FEELING WAS MINIMAL AND WAS OCCURING DUE TO THE AGGRESSIVE TURNING AND BRAKING BEING PERFORMED BY THE CUSTOMER. THE VEHICLE IS OPERATING AS DESIGNED.

To reach 400 degrees of steering angle, the wheel must be at almost full lock. I can't recall the exact number now, but full lock was about 430 degrees, I think. This means that the 400 degrees that he used as the basis for his conclusion is when I was making a U turn at less than 5 MPH. Steering angle when the surge happens in the regen transition is about 1/4 turn of the steering wheel.

Edited October 25, 2015 by hybridbear

[machoman1337]

Although I haven't experienced anything like this (or maybe I just didn't notice), thank you very much Hybridbear for your very impressive research efforts. I don't doubt that this is a real problem, and it's quite unprofessional for Ford to just refuse to continue investigating the matter.

[Darkside]

Good Luck with the Lemon law. You will need to have had your vehicle in multiple times for the same issue and I also suggest bringing it to multiple dealers. Ask me how I know this? The car I had previously (Chevy Cruze) had a anti-freeze issue where it always smelled of anti-freeze after driving it and turning it off. I had it in 15 times for them to try and correct it (twice it came back with more problems than when I dropped it off). They too sent out their "engineer" and I was told it was normal to smell that. So the next letter to Chevy stated that any engineer that tells me a sealed system is supposed to smell like anti-freeze should not be an engineer. I got compensated for the car through an attorney, then I was going to trade it but figured since I got a settlement they wouldn't do much for me so I traded it in on this Fusion. Called the dealer back and told him not to worry about me bringing the car back in and that I solved the problem......Ford Fusion.

[hybridbear]

I spoke to a supervisor today. Every time he called was not a time when I could talk & then I got sick with a bad cough which hindered me from being able to call him back & not be coughing non-stop. He was very pleasant, although he couldn't do anything. I explained everything to him & he was able to read all the comments on the Ford Hotline about our car & the notes from Jeff (the field engineer). He seemed to understand my concerns based on Jeff's notes. But he also said that they (the customer service people) have no authority to question an engineer's determination or request that he take a look at something again. Basically, the engineers are considered infallible within Ford & no one is allowed to question their decisions. Not the dealership, not the customer, not Ford Customer Care.

[hybridbear]

I would request that everyone who experiences this file a complaint with the NHTSA. I agree that this is a wonderful community & that we have done a lot to help solve issues for Ford since these cars were introduced in 2012. The more similar complaints that we send to the NHTSA, the higher the likelihood that they will be noticed. Writing the complaints in a way that is factual & professional should have the most impact. Please use this link to file a complaint.

 

The text of my complaint can be found in this post. This post contains what dtw-dave said in his NHTSA complaint. If enough complaints are sent to the NHTSA this may become the subject of a recall. Thanks everyone for your help to make sure Ford knows that this issue needs to be fixed. :worship: :thumbsup:

I would again ask that everyone who experiences this behavior file an NHTSA complaint. Reading through the complaints you can see that they work. There are complaints about steering gear motor bolts, door latches, airbag lights, and more, all of which became recalls. Please file a complaint & help make this issue more visible so that Ford is forced to admit that it exists & to fix it.

[dtw-dave]

Keeps happening to my wife's '13. Left ... right ... straight. Very disappointed, to say the least.

[Griswald]

Personally, I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

 

Can you detect this transition? 100% YES, and I can even duplicate it nearly 100% on demand.

 

Does the car ever go out of control? NO, not even for that few thousandth's of a second.

 

Has anyone ever crashed because of this? No, not that we have ever heard of.

 

Do the tires get hot and explode? No

 

Does the car burst into flames because of this issue? No

 

Does the gas tank explode? No

 

Does the car rapidly accelerate into a building? No

 

Does the ignition shut itself off and cause crashes? No

 

Does the airbag explode and cut itself? No

 

Are tens of thousands of customers annoyed by this issue? No

 

Its just a quirk, nothing more. I can live with it. Doesn't take away what a great vehicle this really is. If Ford decides to re-program, I will get it done if I ever have a need to visit the dealer, but wouldn't go out of my way to have it re-flashed.

 

JMO...

[hybridbear]

Personally, I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

 

Can you detect this transition? 100% YES, and I can even duplicate it nearly 100% on demand.

The problem is that this was not an issue since day 1 of production. This is an issue that Ford created through one of their other updates. That is the problem. This is the nail in the coffin for me. I will never buy another Ford & now I tell everyone to avoid Fords.

[Waldo]

The problem is that this was not an issue since day 1 of production. This is an issue that Ford created through one of their other updates. That is the problem. This is the nail in the coffin for me. I will never buy another Ford & now I tell everyone to avoid Fords.

 

But that's all speculation on your part because that's how it went on YOUR car. These kind of bugs are usually the result of variability from one car to the next. For example there must be some parameter in the software that assumes a certain level of expected braking friction. Of course every car will be different, and the difference between the actual and expected friction will vary. It could be that difference that is the source of this bug. It could be that the new software assumes a different base parameter, so while there will still be variation from one car to the next, the amount of difference on YOUR car is now worse, triggering the bug, while on many other cars it is actually better, thus avoiding the bug. If it's not brake friction it could be variability in the wheel speed sensors, tire diameters, brake booster actuators and all kinds of stuff that just happens to come together the wrong way.

 

Now I may be totally off since I have no idea what the real root cause is, but my point is that until you know the root cause, you can't make assumptions that it's really the software update that caused it based on a few posts in this forum.

 

For the record, I've been driving around for a month or so on the latest update and haven't ever experienced the issue.

[Texasota]

The problem is that this was not an issue since day 1 of production. This is an issue that Ford created through one of their other updates. That is the problem. This is the nail in the coffin for me. I will never buy another Ford & now I tell everyone to avoid Fords.

Having worked in the software engineering field for 31.5 years I know very well that making a change to fix a problem frequently affects another area of a software system. Sometimes the side affect is known/understood and other times the side affect takes you completely by surprise even though you tested it to the best of your ability. If this braking issue was introduced by a recent software change or fix, then Ford may have known about this side affect or it may have caught them by surprise.

 

I know I faced software dilemmas where there was no "perfect" solution. Solution "A" would have a particular side effect and solution "B" would have another side effect. No matter what we did some customers were going to be unhappy and we had to make a decision knowing that it would not be a perfect solution.

 

I have not experienced this braking phenomenon in my FFH or else it is so subtle that I have not noticed it. But, based on my understanding of the problem it does not seem like it is causing a safety or significant driveability issue. Only my opinion and I hope I expressed it respectfully.

[hybridbear]

But, based on my understanding of the problem it does not seem like it is causing a safety or significant driveability issue.

I feel it is a safety issue. The car surges forward. With winter coming & traction decreasing, this could cause a major issue.