Disappointing first fill up

[corncobs]

Not sure if I am convinced but will give it a try next time I am in a large parking lot.

I don't think I'm wrong to say you won't be the only one trying this after Waldo's comment ;)

[GrySql]

Mr. Pozar explains, “You are capacitively coupling the fob to your head. With all the fluids in your head it ends up being a nice conductor. Not a great one, but it works.”

 

Insane... LOL! Thanks Waldo.

So, the more water in your head the better the range...

This explains a lot of other things too.

 

Fun contest at the next FFH rally in your area.

Let's all stand in a row, park our cars out of range of the FOB's and start walking towards the car.

The first one to have their car doors unlock is the winner, or loser - depending on your point of view. :lol:

 

Boy, the possibilities are endless.... :)

--

** How did we get so far off topic?

Please, somebody start a new Topic on this key FOB phenomenon, it is a classic.

Edited March 27, 2015 by GrySql

[Easy Rider]

I find that holding the FOB as high up in the air as I can also increases the effective range.......and makes me a little less nervous. ;)

[CCalvinN]

Just a quick update. Reminder; my original issue was gas mileage compared to my previous car. I wanted to get 'as good as' or 'better' gas mileage than I was in a 2012 Ford Focus. The Focus was getting between 32 and 34 mpg in the winter and between 37 and 40 in the summer. I think if it weren't for the remote starts, I'd have been close to the winter mpg. WITH the remote start I'll take the trade of a warm car vs the few mpg lost. We're not yet in summer, but I can already see that I'll easily exceed the 37 to 40 numbers. My last fill up was just over 43mpg and we haven't gone past the mid 60s yet (unless the AC absolutely kills the mpg).

 

So at this point I'm satisfied.

 

Now I'm going to move on to just how much I can trust the in car computed mpg. The Focus was constantly about 5% off. Sometimes high, sometimes low. But close enough that I could use it to monitor my fuel efficiency and stop keeping track myself. Using Fuelly will help as I just realized I could add a 'note' to each fill up to record what the car's computed mpg was. I've only done this for the past two fill ups and have had differing results.

 

This past fill up was 501.40 miles, 11.484 gallons, for a 43.66mpg. The car at the time was reporting 42.9 miles per gallon.

 

The previous fill up was 473.80 miles, 12.018 gallons, for a 39.42mpg. The car at the time was reporting 43.1 miles per gallon.

 

Now I don't really care if the computer is off either high or low, so long as it's consistently around the same. My back of the napkin math tells me that this past result was about 2% off (low), while the previous tank was about 9% off (high). I'm not going to make any conclusions based on only two fill ups. I can't even say for certain that I didn't remote start the car at least once during that previous tank and that alone could be the big difference. But it's something I'll be tracking for awhile.

 

Right now I'm driving the car in a fairly consistent manner tank to tank. Work, home, a little around town driving. Next month, however, I'll be taking a 1500 mile journey down to Texas and back. Has anybody noticed if the car's computed mpg is any better/worse when it's several tanks worth of pure interstate highway driving as opposed to city/country-highway driving?

[Charrua]

I've been recording Fuelly MPGs for over 2 years and the Fusion computer reports 5% better MPG on average.

[acdii]

Your discrepancy is due to the fillups, and not really the computer. The filler on these cars is goofy, as you can see by quite a few threads regarding fuel tank size. Depending on pump fill rate, angle of car, temps, etc. you can put more or less fuel in at every fill, so one fill clicks off with a not so full tank, next fill fills up more than the last tank by a gallon or more. I gave up long time ago trying to decipher just when it shuts off and just fill to the first click and done, next tank will compensate for shorting, and over a dozen fills it all averages out.

[CCalvinN]

I agree that the discrepancy is going to be due more to the filling up procedure. If I weren't as anal retentive as I am I'd probably just go with the dash numbers. BUT... I love to have numbers backing up my assumptions. I assume that after 7 or 8 fill-ups, I'll see a fairly close deviation and will then stop measuring it by hand. Thankfully I've filled up my cars in the same way for years. Hand hold the pump and let it go as fast as it can until it clicks off. Wait a beat or two (maybe 3 seconds), then add more fuel slowly increasing the flow rate until it clicks off. Wait a beat or two and fill it up again with increasing pressure. On my Lumina the 2nd and 3rd actions barely got any fuel in. On my Focus the 2nd would get maybe 1/4 gallon in while the 3rd would click off almost immediately. On the Fusion between the 2nd and 3rd actions I'm getting almost another whole gallon in.

 

As long as I'm posting, I'll put this here too: My last fill up was my best yet. 488.7 Miles and 11.09 gallons for 44.39 mpg. The dash was saying 45.6 mpg. That's about a 3% deviation.

 

I really can't wait to see what very hot temperatures do. When it's hot out I tend to run the heck out of the AC.

[lolder]

Let it stop automatically all the time. Don't put anymore in. The car computers are 4-5 % high but the odometer is about 2.5% low so the net is 2 % high which is 1 mpg.

[md13ffhguy]

Let it stop automatically all the time. Don't put anymore in. The car computers are 4-5 % high but the odometer is about 2.5% low so the net is 2 % high which is 1 mpg.

Totally agree. I was playing the click game for a while, but eventually convinced myself it was pointless. It may even be counterproductive...

[hybridbear]

Sometimes you get a pump where even on the lowest speed setting it clicks off immediately and won't put any gas in. That's the most annoying.

[CCalvinN]

A couple observations. I now have over 10,000 miles in Ginger. Her Summer fuel economy is impressive and meets my desire (i.e. better than the Focus); between 41 and 46 mpg. My last fill up was my best. 522 miles, 11.422 gallons, 45.7 mpg. Using the AC does have an affect, but not nearly as much as wind or even rain. While the heated seats (and steering wheel) in the winter allowed me to heat the cabin less, the cooled seats don't seem to give as great an effect. I believe it's because the cooling effect doesn't spread as easily... it stays focused between my thighs and lower back.

 

I have been keeping track of the FFH's reported fuel economy as well as my hand computed fuel economy for 16 fill ups now (about 8000 miles). Enough that I can start playing with the numbers.

 

A quick reminder, I do try to fill up at the same pump at the same gas station whenever I can. I try to fill up in the same manner all the time. While there are differences of opinion on the methodology (stop filling at the first click, pump at full speed, slowly increase the pressure, top off for two clicks....) I believe consistency helps alleviate those differences.

 

Out of 16 fill ups, the car's reported mpg has been high 12 times. It's ranged from only 0.5% high to 9.4% high. When it has been lower, it's been 1.8%, 0.3%, 2.5%, and 1.1% low. When I average all the differences up it's an average of 2.8% high. When I computed these numbers for the Focus I did so on an old spreadsheet. I'd keep the receipts for every fill up and update the spreadsheet as needed. Once I had it's reporting error (it was about 5% off!) I stopped recording it and just used the car's computed mpg. Now that I've been using fuelly for 24 fill ups it's become habit... so I'll keep using it and keep updating the numbers as necessary.

 

The car is saying I have a lifetime average of 41.4 mpg. Fuelly is saying 39.1 mpg for the same period. That's about a 5.9% difference, but the car's average wouldn't include remote starting the car in winter, while fuelly does.

 

Putting all of these numbers into one big pot and stirring them up equates to me being very happy. I'm happy with the overall fuel efficiency (better than the Focus), and I'm happy with the reporting error (2.8%).

 

One general question I have... how exactly does a car figure out it's mpg? The obvious math seems simple enough; miles driven divided by gallons of gasoline used. The miles driven is easy enough to measure with the odometer, but how does it calculate gallons of gas used? Is there a flow sensor measuring how much gasoline is pumped? Is it computing based on how much gasoline is in the tank? I ask because I'd like to know where the errors come in. Obviously there are many weak points when doing the hand calculations... which station, which pump, which pumping method, temp at time of pumping... but what are the weak points for the computer? I'm not asking because I want to work on eliminating those weak points. I'm just curious.

[murphy]

I don't know for certain but the computer has to fire each fuel injector so it should know how much fuel has been put through each injector. The problem with this method is the accumulation of errors. A one drop difference is insignificant for a single charge but for a million charges it can be very significant.

 

In 9th grade science class all of the students were asked to measure the length of the classroom using a 12" ruler. The total length varied significantly because of the difficulty of moving the ruler exactly 12" for the next measurement.

[CCalvinN]

I figured this would be a good time to update this thread. I now have over 18,000 miles on Ginger. The summer months have been very good to my MPG. Fuelly now reports the complete average as 41.2 mpg, while Ginger herself reports 43.2 mpg. I don't think I'll get that up to 43.3 mpg before the cooler temps take their due.

 

Unfortunately I won't get a full year of consistent driving to test out my newfound hybrid happy driving techniques in the winter. If you recall, I bought the car in February and was surprised at how low the fuel economy was. I now believe that a very good portion of that low economy was due to my driving technique. In two weeks, however, I'm changing work locations. My daily near 100 mile commute is going to change to a daily 13 mile commute. Where almost my entire drive to and from work now is on a long stretch of 55 mph 'highway', it's going to shift to either all city traffic or a majority 75 mph stretch of interstate. Either of which alone would change the mpg. The worrying part to me is that with such a short commute Ginger will barely get out of the 'warm up' stage and will therefore drink a lot of gas.

 

But hey... instead of filling up once a week, I should be able to go over a month between fill ups! If I really like this job, I may look at trading out Ginger for a Fusion Energi. I'd absolutely LOVE getting the majority of my trip from electrons instead of hydrocarbons!

[tr7driver]

CCalvinN, We have a C-max Energi in addition to the FFH. My commute is about 7 miles each direction and the Energi is perfect for me. I have only purchased gas for it three times in 14 months (7K miles), mostly due to road trips. This year I have used more gas in my lawn mower than the C-max. (The dash reports 185 mpg, I have no idea how that is computed) However, in the winter, you end up running the ice to defrost the windows and warm the cabin. While the Energi can use the battery for climate control, heat is very inefficient, AC is much more efficient in the summer. However, the Energi will let you pre-heat/pre-cool while plugged into a L2 charger, but I never bought one, I'm fine with the L1 that came with car. Read the energi forums and try to determine if it is a good fit for you. If so, it is even more amazing than the totally awesome FFH. If the Fusion Energi had a hatch back opening like the C-max instead of a small trunk lid, cargo space due to the battery placement would be much less of an issue and I would have likely gone that route.

 

With current low gas prices and high interest in SUV's and Trucks, dealer discounts and the tax credit on new PHEV's make both Ford Energi models, especially 2015's (and new 2014's if you can find them) very competitively priced. In some instances you can buy the Energi for less than the Hybrid taking the tax credit into consideration. Trade in value is another story, so plan to keep it a few years or consider a lease.

 

Also, consider your electric rate. The national avg. is said to be 11 cents/kwh. I'm on a variable hourly rate plan so I can charge at home at night for about 3 cents/kwh, so my monthly bill has only gone up about $6. I also can charge for free at several locations around town. I don't know how long that will last, but I take advantage of it every chance I get. Ah hour plugged in at the gym gets me back to a full charge for free and motivates me to go there daily. It don't get much better than that.

 

It also helps if you have a garage to charge inside. On a lightener note, being a creature of habit, I find myself checking the oil in the C-max every week as part of my vehicle maintenance routine, even thought the ice hasn't started since June. The oil change interval is 20K miles.

[lolder]

I figured this would be a good time to update this thread. I now have over 18,000 miles on Ginger. The summer months have been very good to my MPG. Fuelly now reports the complete average as 41.2 mpg, while Ginger herself reports 43.2 mpg. I don't think I'll get that up to 43.3 mpg before the cooler temps take their due.

 

Unfortunately I won't get a full year of consistent driving to test out my newfound hybrid happy driving techniques in the winter. If you recall, I bought the car in February and was surprised at how low the fuel economy was. I now believe that a very good portion of that low economy was due to my driving technique. In two weeks, however, I'm changing work locations. My daily near 100 mile commute is going to change to a daily 13 mile commute. Where almost my entire drive to and from work now is on a long stretch of 55 mph 'highway', it's going to shift to either all city traffic or a majority 75 mph stretch of interstate. Either of which alone would change the mpg. The worrying part to me is that with such a short commute Ginger will barely get out of the 'warm up' stage and will therefore drink a lot of gas.

 

But hey... instead of filling up once a week, I should be able to go over a month between fill ups! If I really like this job, I may look at trading out Ginger for a Fusion Energi. I'd absolutely LOVE getting the majority of my trip from electrons instead of hydrocarbons!

You'll be driving at higher speeds where the ICE should run anyway despite the 86 mph max EV limit. Above about 40-50 mph the ICE is more efficient. Let us know what happens.

[talmy]

But hey... instead of filling up once a week, I should be able to go over a month between fill ups! If I really like this job, I may look at trading out Ginger for a Fusion Energi. I'd absolutely LOVE getting the majority of my trip from electrons instead of hydrocarbons!

 

Yes, what really counts are gallons/year and not miles/gallon. I've gone from a 20 mile (each way) commute to a 1 mile commute. I'm driving a Camry hybrid and my commuting mileage is around 20mpg even in the summer. Other trips pull it up to about 30 mpg. But I only have to fill the tank once a month or less.

 

I've read about people who go out of their way putting on extra miles just to get higher mpg figures, but consume more gas doing it. Makes no sense!

 

As for plug-in hybrids or electric vehicles, it sure looks like good sense for me (or you), however there are other factors in the equation. You need to take into account the total cost of ownership. A gas-guzzler that has low purchase cost and depreciation would likely be cheaper when the cost of fuel is just a minor factor. I figured that Camry required about 70,000 miles to break even over the gas version. Got 125k on it now, but at my current driving rate it would take about 25 years.

Edited October 28, 2015 by talmy

[CCalvinN]

 

Yes, what really counts are gallons/year and not miles/gallon. I've gone from a 20 mile (each way) commute to a 1 mile commute. I'm driving a Camry hybrid and my commuting mileage is around 20mpg even in the summer. Other trips pull it up to about 30 mpg. But I only have to fill the tank once a month or less.

 

I've read about people who go out of their way putting on extra miles just to get higher mpg figures, but consume more gas doing it. Makes no sense!

 

As for plug-in hybrids or electric vehicles, it sure looks like good sense for me (or you), however there are other factors in the equation. You need to take into account the total cost of ownership. A gas-guzzler that has low purchase cost and depreciation would likely be cheaper when the cost of fuel is just a minor factor. I figured that Camry required about 70,000 miles to break even over the gas version. Got 125k on it now, but at my current driving rate it would take about 25 years.

 

 

I completely agree on the gallons/year vs miles/gallon. The two route options I have are roughly the same miles, so the miles/gallon would be a good measure when comparing. The only difference would be time as the highway would be much quicker. But as I'm saving roughly 2 hours a day in commute, I think I can spare the extra 5 minutes to take the city route... if it's more efficient.

 

As for the total cost of ownership, I kind of agree. I don't look at exact cost savings when I look at higher efficiency, nor do I look at payoff point for extra efficiency. I just want to use as little gas as possible without sacrificing comfort (hence me not riding a bike!) So I look at what I can afford. If a car costs me more, but is still in my affordable sweet spot I'll get it. If I could have afforded a Tesla S (and get over range anxiety), I would purchased that.

 

When I got my FFH I briefly considered the Energi but it was just a bit more than I could afford when it was optioned out as I wanted. Two things could change that. 1) it's less expensive now. Through January 4, they have a $6000 incentive on FFE. With that incentive it's cheaper than the FFH. 2) A lease is now an option. With my previous commute putting about 24,000 miles/year a lease just wasn't cost effective. I actually had the salesman run the numbers and a lease was $150 a month more. But now I should sit very comfortably under 10,000 per year.

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of getting an Energi. The biggest factor will be how much of my current loan I'll have to just eat. My current pay off is just a touch under $34,000 (I rolled a bit of my previous loan into this one), and Kelley Blue Book says my car is worth $19,750 for dealer trade in. I'm not sure rolling $14,000 over will ever be cost effective. I might have to wait a year or two to catch up on the depreciation.

[Waldo]

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of getting an Energi. The biggest factor will be how much of my current loan I'll have to just eat. My current pay off is just a touch under $34,000 (I rolled a bit of my previous loan into this one), and Kelley Blue Book says my car is worth $19,750 for dealer trade in. I'm not sure rolling $14,000 over will ever be cost effective. I might have to wait a year or two to catch up on the depreciation.

 

The fuel saved by switching to an Energi will never offset the depreciation hit of trading in. The amount of money you owe and the value of your car are not in any way related. You need to only focus on the difference in value of what you have vs what you will pay for the Energi. That amount is likely to be somewhere around $10,000, probably about 50 years worth of fuel for you.

[hybridbear]

13 miles one-way should be long enough for the car to get warm. Grille blocking will help reduce the time it takes to warm up the ICE in the winter. The highway route will do a better job of getting the ICE warm in the winter. In the summer, with limited warm up times, the city route will likely use significantly less gas. In the winter, I would imagine that the difference will be minimal. In the winter the city route may even use more gas because the ICE will run when you aren't moving solely to provide cabin heat.

 

If you want to go PHEV and commute 13 miles each way on electricity, don't go for an Energi. A Volt would be a better fit. There are great deals on the leftover 2015s. If you are a multi-car household you could look at keeping the FFH & replacing the other vehicle with a PHEV.

 

Edit: I just re-read your post & it sounds like 13 miles is your new round-trip distance, not one way. 6.5 miles one way will definitely not get the ICE warm in the city, but should still get it warm on the freeway.

Edited October 29, 2015 by hybridbear

[CCalvinN]

It's been just under a month with the new job/commute. Sadly I'm not even going to try and make any type of correlation between fill-ups/mpg/efficiency between the long commute and short commute nor the highway/city routes. Two things have come into play that make getting solid numbers in this short period futile. The first is the temperature shifts; there have been a few days where the temp just barely got past freezing, and there have been a few days where the temp didn't go below 50. That's a big difference on how much the engine runs to warm itself and the cabin up. To make it worse, I've occasionally utilized the remote start on some of those cold mornings. The second thing is where I fuel up the car. The vast majority of my fuel ups in the past have been at one particular gas station at one particular pump. That station is now 45 miles away and I'll hopefully never drive past it again. So I'm still trying to find a new 'regular' station and pump.

 

So I can't necessarily say how much of a drop in mpg my new short commute is responsible for as the cold is assuredly responsible for a large portion of it. Because I was still learning how to drive the hybrid efficiently during the cold first months of ownership, I probably won't have good numbers to compare against until April of next year.

 

The car has suggested 43.7 mpg and 37.1 mpg for the two fill-ups in November. Fuelly has told me I got 46.4 mpg and 31 mpg for those same fill-ups.

[Griswald]

Here are my observations on a short commute and MPG.

 

My commute is not much different than yours, and my lifetime average is now 43.9. Two big differences between a long trip and a short trip in the way you need to treat this car. The first is use momentum as much as possible, speeding up a little bit to clear a hill and then coasting to maximize time in EV mode works very well. The second may or not be important to your commute, don't let the ICE run at highway speeds if you can avoid it, again, pulse and coast works very well on short highway drives. This is the exact opposite of letting the ICE so all of the work when taking a longer highway trip. There just isn't enough time to fully charge your battery on a short highway trip.

 

If you are really into numbers and data, I would suggest an Ultragauge. I bought one at the beginning of last year and have gone from 43.1 to 43.9. Watching the data and closely monitoring your drives will take some practice, but is worth it IMO.

 

One other thing to remember with short commutes, really get to know the ride, learn where a light touch works and where you can afford to press harder. What really surprised me is how easily this car can drop into the 10's of MPG or single digit MPG with a small difference in speed. Also, quickly accelerating does not put as much a penalty on this car as I assumed it to.

[md13ffhguy]

I stopped trying to be consistent at the pump. I just pump, record the results, and drive on. This car is so sensitive to variables, that it makes it very difficult to make precise correlations. Basically, for me, it's highly efficient in warmer weather and less so when cold. That, and other factors...

Edited December 9, 2015 by md13ffhguy

[CCalvinN]

Here are my observations on a short commute and MPG.

 

My commute is not much different than yours, and my lifetime average is now 43.9. Two big differences between a long trip and a short trip in the way you need to treat this car. The first is use momentum as much as possible, speeding up a little bit to clear a hill and then coasting to maximize time in EV mode works very well. The second may or not be important to your commute, don't let the ICE run at highway speeds if you can avoid it, again, pulse and coast works very well on short highway drives. This is the exact opposite of letting the ICE so all of the work when taking a longer highway trip. There just isn't enough time to fully charge your battery on a short highway trip.

 

If you are really into numbers and data, I would suggest an Ultragauge. I bought one at the beginning of last year and have gone from 43.1 to 43.9. Watching the data and closely monitoring your drives will take some practice, but is worth it IMO.

 

One other thing to remember with short commutes, really get to know the ride, learn where a light touch works and where you can afford to press harder. What really surprised me is how easily this car can drop into the 10's of MPG or single digit MPG with a small difference in speed. Also, quickly accelerating does not put as much a penalty on this car as I assumed it to.

 

 

I can appreciate some of the suggestions. But with the temperatures the way they are, I can't get the car to drop into EV mode before I exit the highway. The engine immediately turns on and stays on through me exiting the highway. According to the exits, I'm only on the highway for 2 miles. This isn't just true of my commutes... I can only rarely get the battery down below 50% because the engine is running most of the time. I know that a lot of that is me getting heat from the engine... but no matter the cost to my mpg, I'll have my cabin nice and toasty comfortable. The auto climate control is set to 64 degrees and unless I'm remote starting the car, the commute is too short for it to really warm up.

 

As for taking advantage of momentum... the stretch of highway I use is more or less a valley between my entrance and exit. While getting up to speed I'm already going downhill. Plus the traffic is quite dense in the area so my overall speed is more determined by the number of tractor trailers at that particular moment. My 'desired' speed would be 75mph, but the trucks vary between 55 and 65. There isn't enough room to pass them safely and efficiently so I just get a comfortable distance behind them and stay there.

 

I know there are people out there that want to maximize their fuel efficiency. That want to get the most mpg out of their vehicle as possible. I see many here and see their numbers... I don't need to try it for myself. I just want to drive the car as I want to drive it and see what MY mpg can be. Since I bought the car in February of 2015, I've gotten used to braking slowly (I get consistent brake scores in the mid to upper 90s), and have taken my lead foot away on starting acceleration... although I still accelerate from most lights and stops faster than just about anybody else! So I don't think that an ultraguage is in my future.

 

I WILL, however, get used to the various areas on the commute and expect to see some gain there. The one area that sticks out in my head is when I exit the highway on the way to work. It's a bad intersection with just a stop sign (cross traffic doesn't stop at all). I take a left turn up a fairly steep hill onto a 45mph stretch of road where most people are already speeding up to the 55mph zone on the other side of the highway. I can fit into the traffic flow fairly easy but it means almost flooring the gas pedal. What I'm getting used to is just how much space I need to accelerate at a more normal level. It'll take time but again, I'm sure I'll get good gains. The only problem will be the continuing dropping temperature and whether or not I'll actually be able to SEE the gains.

 

Thanks for the advice!

[Griswald]

The Ultragauge is just data. The more data you can see (and use) the easier it becomes to drive this car.

 

I strongly recommend it, even if it is just for the "cool" factor. Also, it fits like it was made for this vehicle.

[DeeCee]

To me, the easy way to drive this car is to engage the ACC at the posted speed limit and enjoy the ride. Don't get overly obsessed with the mileage. I probably use the ACC 80% of the time I drive and my lifetime mileage as reported by the cars computer is 48 mpg after 52,000 miles of relaxing and enjoyable driving.