Towing a FFH

[airbusguy]

Last year I towed my FFH HyTy behind my rv 1700 miles to AZ with nary a problem in 15F weather. This year ( you may have seen my post under My Battery Problems I added on to someone elses. My bad. ), I had nothing but problems in cold weather. Once in warmer climes, the problems disappeared. In a nutshell, the car was dead after towing for a day or even less - some cases 2 hours. I know the camera defrost was one of the culprits as displayed by the bare spots in the ice on the windshield. I recall now the HVB state of charge indicator was at the very bottom once I boosted the car to start it, even though it was damn near full to start the day. This occurred 3 times ( days) in a row. Once it was warm out, all was well.

I took the car in last week for them to check the 12v battery's condition and apparently it registers great. I originally had thought this might be the culprit due to all the other 12v problems on the board. The more I think about this, the more I think the electrical system shut down because of the HVB charge state, not the 12v. There is no way a 12v battery can be dead 3 times in a row and perform normally thereafter day after day.

The tech at the dealer originally tried to tell me I had the tow package wired wrong, and then I was performing the tow procedure improperly.(Service advisor translations to the work order). End result, there is no accessory postion on a FFH pushbutton start, and due to one of the updates, the electrical system stays alive even with the switch off and transmission in Neutral. The tech tried to place the ignition in the accessory postion on Hybrids on the lot after I had left, and also told Ford hotline the same story. No can do. Apparently some Fusions have an accessory postion, but not the Hybrid. So now I have a car that is untowable in cold weather without mods or boosting. Meagan Ford Tech is looking into this and Ford hotline is aware, but no solution is evident. This post is just a warning to those who tow 4 down that this is not possible anymore in cold weather. I believe the temp is 40F is the magic number that it all falls apart when the heater activates.

I still think the car is great and have high expectations that this problem can be cured, as it was problem free last winter before updates.

It's just a matter of time and priorities to the programmers at Ford. I am in the minority as a towed vehicle owner, so it's probably not high on the list of priorities.

[VonoreTn]

I still have the key start on my 2010 FFH. I am old enough to remember on the 1940 cars they had push button start, then the key start came in in the 50's which was considered an upgrade, but it was on the dash, not the steering column. Then when they wanted to lock the steering wheel when off and in park, they put it on the column. Anyway, I have never considered the push button start to be a feature, just an annoying change back to an old concept. Maybe your FFH needs a way to totally disconnect the HV and LV batteries, but as you say, very few people tow their FFH's. I'm sure some of these experts on this forum can help you with that.

[Griswald]

Can't you simply disconnect the 12V battery or pull a few fuses?

[Easy Rider]

Can't you simply disconnect the 12V battery or pull a few fuses?

Or get a dolly and tow 2-down.

 

Although I have never done that specifically with a car behind a motorhome, I still think the dolly would be a better solution........for several reasons.

[airbusguy]

Griswald

I haven't delved into that yet, as I don't know for sure now that it was the 12v or the HVB. When it occurred, I was more concerned with " getting out of Dodge" rather than doing actual trouble shooting. With the warm weather here, I won't be able to troulbe shoot until the next near-freeze. As I said, the car at present is performing flawlessly except for a noise associated with having the transmission leak repaired and then the thrustwashers inserted - but that's another story.

[airbusguy]

Easyrider

That too is a possibility, but a tow dolly is more of a pain for me. Besides adding more weight to drag around, there is a space problem where we camp.

I'd have to rotate my tires more frequently too lol.

But getting back to my original premise, the car didn't require anything before it was "fixed".

[lolder]

The 12 vdc is charged from the HVB by the dc to dc converter. In "N", the HVB can't be charged so the HVB shuts off when it gets to it's emergency low shutoff point. The 12 vdc then eventually dies. There is always enough left in the HVB to start the ICE after you've jumped the 12 vdc. What about keeping the 12 vdc charged from the towing vehicle? Maybe it's as simple as plugging into the 12 vdc "cigarette lighter" outlet. Connecting to the "jump" points should work.

[acdii]

How about pulling the plug on the HVB and disconnecting the 12v? Only downside is it wipes he computer when you do. I second what Lolder mentioned, your RV should have a +12 accessory feed on the 7 pin plug, you could adapt a harness to wire into the jump point under the hood to keep the battery charged. The car will be powered off the RV for the most part then.

[GrySql]

Solar panel to the 12v battery?

[airbusguy]

Thanks for your suggestions.

All these are pretty good solutions but

A) The weather on the way was not conducive to solar charging at all.

B) The rv alternator charges the house batteries , 550 AHs worth, and would have to have a separate system to avoid cooking the car battery

C) In the first thread I unfortunatly hijacked, I bought a booster pack which uses so little power to start, it still hasn't drained enough to recharge itself. I've also become quite adept at using the manual key?

C) This never happened last year - ever

I'm just warning those who might want to tow this vehicle 4 down, it's not like the manual says now.

On the bright side, Meagan FordService has elevated my concerns and applied a case number to them so maybe this can be resolved on the next appointment. All the dealership requires is a drive in fridge to duplicate the problem??

[FordService]

...On the bright side, Meagan FordService has elevated my concerns and applied a case number to them so maybe this can be resolved on the next appointment. All the dealership requires is a drive in fridge to duplicate the problem

:thumbsup:

I'll be here if you need me. :)

 

Meagan

[lolder]

I think the big alternator of the RV might not be able to fry the FFH battery through the wire gauge of the towing harness. You could also put in a dual battery charging system but the simplest way would be to put a big ( 30 Amp) silicon diode on the charge line to the FFH system. That would introduce a relatively constant 0.7 vdc drop in the voltage. If the big RV alternator was putting out 14.4 vdc that would put 13.7 on the car which wouldn't harm it. Get one at Radio Shack for a few bucks before they go out of business or shop here: http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Discrete-Semiconductors/Diodes-Rectifiers/Diodes-General-Purpose-Power-Switching/_/N-ax1mp/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA592lBRCXy8yl4bjK17wBEiQAg1Az_Xs5u7FMekBfncCISJDPUCx25PngYl0Cy-TTZvFDi0kaAlbA8P8HAQ

This would be a Mouser part # from above site: 863-MBRB3045CT-1G

These might need a heat sink.

Edited January 15, 2015 by lolder

[airbusguy]

lolder

I'll keep that in mind if Ford can't resolve this successfully.

Too late about RS, they filed for bankruptcy protection today.

[lolder]

The diode from "Mouser" is the quickest and cheapest solution. It looks like it's just over a dollar plus shipping. I've bought stuff from them before and they are legit. I don't think RS has filed yet but I don't see any big diodes in their on-line catalog anyway. If you're an Airbus guy you should be able figure the electronic stuff out.

 

At my monthly retired old captains lunch today, Airbus came in for the usual flak from the Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed and Convair ( me ) pilots.

 

Same old score: Thunderstorms 10 :: Airbus 0. There's an emergency AD out on the A 318-321s about upsets and loss of control requiring rapid circuit breaker pulling for two of the three air data systems when they are having icing or other glitches.

Edited January 16, 2015 by lolder

[acdii]

Remind me to stay off big planes for the time being. :)

 

RS going under? Not really surprised, their time has passed since no one builds electronic kits anymore, and MP3 players have pretty much made home entertainment stereos obsolete. Last time I went in for electronic parts, they had very little in stock. I needed some 9 pin serial ends for my RC stuff, and they had a total of 2 female and 1 male. That and the people working there look cross eyed at you when you ask them for some electronic part. Want to confuse them to no end, ask for a flip flop ic.

[airbusguy]

The diode from "Mouser" is the quickest and cheapest solution. It looks like it's just over a dollar plus shipping. I've bought stuff from them before and they are legit. I don't think RS has filed yet but I don't see any big diodes in their on-line catalog anyway. If you're an Airbus guy you should be able figure the electronic stuff out.

 

At my monthly retired old captains lunch today, Airbus came in for the usual flak from the Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed and Convair ( me ) pilots.

 

Same old score: Thunderstorms 10 :: Airbus 0. There's an emergency AD out on the A 318-321s about upsets and loss of control requiring rapid circuit breaker pulling for two of the three air data systems when they are having icing or other glitches.

A

lolder, thanks for the part number

B

Yup, retired off the 330/340 5 years ago and in every sim session we did at least one Direct Law exercise.

C

Should be TRWs=lots, Stupid pilots=0

[airbusguy]

What I can't figure out is how to delete a ghost quote due to my fat fingers on my phone's keyboard :)

[GrySql]

What I can't figure out is how to delete a ghost quote due to my fat fingers on my phone's keyboard :)

Gotcha covered...

[airbusguy]

Thanks GrySql

[lolder]

What I can't figure out is how to delete a ghost quote due to my fat fingers on my phone's keyboard :)

Sometime around 1970 when I was co-pilot on the DC-9, they added a "pitch hold" to the auto pilot that had no air data input. It was to be used if you were so improvident as to get yourself in turbulence and was the solution to jet upsets. The Airbus has that doesn't it? I used it once in moderate plus turbulence descending though a smooth looking cloud layer associated with a deep low that i had been warned about by ATC. Used full ignition and anti-ice and had the FA's secure everything well in advance and everything was fine but it was really rough and would've been hard to hand-fly. No sustained up or down drafts. The layer was about 5K feet thick and looked as smooth as stratus.

[airbusguy]

That was a Douglas thing. I flew the DC10 for a number of years and it had the turb mode on the autopilot.

Without a/p engaged the bus would maintain the attitude you had set - unless it exceeded preprogrammed parameters - ie roll into a steep bank, say 60 degrees, let go of the stick, and it would go back to 33 degrees while maintaining the same pitch. So it always was in a pitch/bank hold state. The inertial reference units were always in the loop, as were the air data computers unless emergency procedures dictated otherwise. Multiple failures would make life interesting.

I can't believe how much I've forgotten in just 5 years.

[acdii]

Sounds like today's pilots would be lost flying a B-17. LOL

[lolder]

You had to hand fly a B-17 in formation but it had an auto pilot that was used by the Norden bombsight and the lead aircraft would use the auto pilot. When not in formation the auto pilot could be used. It did not maintain the altitude. Most modern aircraft auto pilots can land the aircraft. They do it pretty smoothly most of the time. First World pilots seldom use that feature except when required by very low cloud ceilings and visibility when it's use is mandated. "Auto land" has been around about 50 years in some aircraft and is widely installed today.

 

It's usually foggy and the runway is wet when auto land is required so there is very little initial friction when the wheels hit the runway and spin up. Sometimes the only way you can tell the aircraft is on the ground is the cockpit control handle for the automatic wing spoilers moves on command from the wheel spin up; it's that smooth.

 

What has this to do with towing a FFH. Soon you'll be able to tell it where to drive as an autonomous vehicle. These technologies are farther along than most people know. Auto land systems are for the most part "Fail-operational" which means they can tolerate a major component or aircraft system failure and complete the landing. The pilot doesn't have to suddenly grab the controls. GOOGLE has realized this and plans the same philosophy, People are poor backups for real-time automated systems.

Edited January 21, 2015 by lolder

[acdii]

Yep, knew that. Our cars are so close to auto drive now, it is scary. The only thing missing are road markers the car can see at all times. Now do pilots do regular sims where they have to fly the plane, as in a complete systems failure where you are basically on the same level as a b-17?

[TonyHzNV]

Funny you should bring up a B-17. I have a B-17F wallpaper on my computer right now. My Dad was a B-17F bottom turret gunner in WW2. I have tried flying a B-17 in my Microsoft Flight Sim, but you really do need a copilot. There was a lot to it! I joined the Army in November of 1971 and retired in August of 1992. I started out as a Huey mechanic and later went to flight school and became a Warrant Officer. So, the second half of my career was as a (Bell) "Huey" pilot/Maintenance Officer and then a (Sikorsky) UH-60A Blackhawk pilot/Maintenance Officer/Test Pilot. I began flying the Blackhawk in 1985 while assigned to a Medevac detachment in northern Germany that was transitioning from the Huey to the Blackawk. Technology DOES change, and rather rapidly. When I retired, the UH-60L had recently been introduced, but it was pretty much the same helicopter as the "A" model with up-rated T700-GE-701 turbine engines to match the Apache gunships at the time. Even though we see the Blackhawk as the most modern and sophisticated helicopter we have in the Army, you should know that the first "A" models were delivered beginning with model year 1977. Yep, they've been around that long already, 38 years! Anyway, about 5 years ago now, Sikorsky began delivering the newest iteration of the Blackhawk, the UH-60M. This is truly NOT the same helicopter I flew in my day, even though it looks the same from the outside. The fuselage has been lightened up by using carbon fiber, many of it's systems have been "modernized", it has larger and quieter rotor blades, and it now has a fully coupled autopilot, as well as even better engines which, if I'm not mistaken, are up to 2000 shaft horsepower each. One of the biggest advances is the transition to the "glass cockpit". All of those old instruments and caution/advisory panels have been replaced by 2 color LED/LCD screens on each side. You can setup each screen to display whatever you want, kinda like the "MyView" screen on the FFH! There are so many differences, that pilots transitioning to the "M" model from any other Blackhawk model have to go back to Ft. Rucker, AL and attend an official transition course that lasts about 3-4 weeks. From what I've read recently, the very newest "M" models are even "fly-by-wire". I'm not so sure I would be comfortable with that. I think I prefer physical connections like push/pull tubes, cables, and chains. Point being, that I'm sure even I, with a couple thousand hours in the UH-60A, would feel "lost" in the UH-60M. Would sure like to try one out though! Check out the photos of the older cockpit vs. the new. That's the original UH-60A on the left, and the new UH-60M on the right.

 

As far as the simulator, in the Army anyway, we had to "fly" 4 hours a month in the simulator to practice emergency procedures and instrument flight. You had to take annual "check rides" in your birth month every year: a "regular" standardization ride, where you had an oral exam and then demonstrated emergency procedures and explained how the aircraft systems worked, an instrument ride, where you had to plan and fly an actual instrument flight including various approach types, and in my case, a Maintenance Test Flight ride where I had to demo that I knew how to perform all the normal test flight procedures. These check rides all had to be performed in an actual aircraft and NOT in the simulator. I also eventually became a MTF evaluator, where I administered the checkride to other maintenance test pilots.

Edited January 21, 2015 by TonyHzNV