FFH has a 14.1gal Fuel Tank

[ptjones]

FFH has an actual 14.1gal fuel tank (Topped Off), not 13.5gal. like the OM states. I would think 13.5gal. would be a minimum value. This turned out to take more time than I thought, because there is about 1.7gal. left in the tank when I got to 0miles to Empty. So after putting 28mi. on the FWY, I had to put another 54mi. (82mi Total) on the car trying to run out gas which took another hour and half thinking I would run out at anytime. At 80mi. I was thinking how many gallons does this car hold, it was never going to run out!

 

When it finally did, it was a non event, it switched over to EV. It gives you a red triangle message to find safe place to stop, I hit OK button to remove the message and EVed it 2miles to a gas station. No big deal. I did have 2gal gas can in the car just in case. Curiously when I restarted the car with gas in it, it started in EV mode and didn't go to ICE mode till after I got going. :)

 

Paul

[md13ffhguy]

You managed to run out of gas with enough battery to run 2 miles on EV alone? Sounds quite lucky to me.

[GrySql]

FFH has an actual 14.1gal fuel tank (Topped Off), not 13.5gal. like the OM states. I would think 13.5gal. would be a minimum value. This turned out to take more time than I thought, because there is about 1.7gal. left in the tank when I got to 0miles to Empty. So after putting 28mi. on the FWY, I had to put another 54mi. (82mi Total) on the car trying to run out gas which took another hour and half thinking I would run out at anytime. At 80mi. I was thinking how many gallons does this car hold, it was never going to run out!

 

When it finally did, it was a non event, it switched over to EV. It gives you a red triangle message to find safe place to stop, I hit OK button to remove the message and EVed it 2miles to a gas station. No big deal. I did have 2gal gas can in the car just in case. Curiously when I restarted the car with gas in it, it started in EV mode and didn't go to ICE mode till after I got going. :)

 

Paul

When the Fuel Pump Assembly (FP) Reservoir runs dry the PCM sends an OFF signal to the Fuel Jet Pump and shuts the fuel injectors off.

When you put at least one gallon of fuel in the tank the PCM senses this and pulls fuel thru the bottom Reservoir Flapper Valve and primes the Fuel Pump. Once FP Reservoir pressure is up the Reservoir check valve holds the fuel at the FP manifold, waiting for the PCM to send an ON signal. When the Crankshaft Position Sensor sends a signal that the ICE is spinning and requiring fuel the PCM energizes the entire ICE Fuel System.

 

The lag when you restarted the car was the FP Reservoir filling and the Fuel Pump pressurizing the Reservoir. Once pressure was up the ICE could then run. Edit: The PCM has to check the entire fuel system too before it will allow it to operate.

 

Anyway, that's my simple take on the whole thing.

Edited December 17, 2014 by GrySql

[GrySql]

BTW, you daredevil, 14.1 gallons you say...

How many gas nozzle clicks did that take?

[Waldo]

How do you know all of that 14.1 gallons went into the tank? The extra .6 gallons is likely filling up your evap canister and the filler neck

[Easy Rider]

FFH has an actual 14.1gal fuel tank (Topped Off), not 13.5gal. like the OM states. I would think 13.5gal. would be a minimum value.

 

I hope that little experiment was really of some value to you.......because it certainly didn't tell ME anything that I needed to know.

 

As a matter of fact, "topping off" your tank can be a bad thing to do, depending on exactly what you did.

So can running the tank completely dry (hard of fuel pumps).

That is just one of the reasons that they encourage you about every way that the can to fill up when there is still a couple of gallons left.

[ptjones]

When the Fuel Pump Assembly (FP) Reservoir runs dry the PCM sends an OFF signal to the Fuel Jet Pump and shuts the fuel injectors off.

When you put at least one gallon of fuel in the tank the PCM senses this and pulls fuel thru the bottom Reservoir Flapper Valve and primes the Fuel Pump. Once FP Reservoir pressure is up the Reservoir check valve holds the fuel at the FP manifold, waiting for the PCM to send an ON signal. When the Crankshaft Position Sensor sends a signal that the ICE is spinning and requiring fuel the PCM energizes the entire ICE Fuel System.

 

The lag when you restarted the car was the FP Reservoir filling and the Fuel Pump pressurizing the Reservoir. Once pressure was up the ICE could then run. Edit: The PCM has to check the entire fuel system too before it will allow it to operate.

 

Anyway, that's my simple take on the whole thing.

Nice to see someone do their homework and put out some useful information. This is the first time that I have seen the EV come on first, the 5times I had this happen in the CMAX the ICE came on instantly.

 

BTW, you daredevil, 14.1 gallons you say...

How many gas nozzle clicks did that take?

The car wasn't level when I filled up so the first click with speed setting was 13.3gal. The next was 13.8gal at slow speed and then a couple more to 14.1gal. I probably could have squeezed another 1/10th or so.

 

You managed to run out of gas with enough battery to run 2 miles on EV alone? Sounds quite lucky to me.

I was trying to keep the SOC around 75%, no luck involved here, I had 2gal. gas can in the car. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

How do you know all of that 14.1 gallons went into the tank? The extra .6 gallons is likely filling up your evap canister and the filler neck

You need to read the OM " Note: A fuel spillage concern may occur if overfilling the fuel tank. Do not overfill the tank to the point that the fuel is able to bypass the fuel filler nozzle. The overfilled fuel may run down the drain located below and in front of the fuel filler door." This didn't happen when I filled up.

 

 

I hope that little experiment was really of some value to you.......because it certainly didn't tell ME anything that I needed to know.

 

As a matter of fact, "topping off" your tank can be a bad thing to do, depending on exactly what you did.

So can running the tank completely dry (hard of fuel pumps).

That is just one of the reasons that they encourage you about every way that the can to fill up when there is still a couple of gallons left.

This was a TEST to see what the actual capacity of the fuel tank is. It is good info for someone who inadvertently forgets to check their Miles to empty (fuel gauge) so at least they know they have 1.5gal. past 0 miles to empty. So now you know if it ever comes up. :)

 

Paul

Edited December 17, 2014 by ptjones

[GrySql]

The car wasn't level when I filled up so the first click with speed setting was 13.3gal. The next was 13.8gal at slow speed and then a couple more to 14.1gal. I probably could have squeezed another 1/10th or so.

That was an interesting test.

I put in 13.4 gallons one time, I was about 25-30 miles past Empty, an accident of conditions. The car was pretty new and the gas nozzle clicked off at about 11 gallons, I set the nozzle to super slow and it kept going until the 13.4 reading clicked the nozzle off.

Since that happened I fuel at my convenience but still don't like to push things because we live in earthquake country and having worked in emergency services I like to keep the cars tanks above the 1/4 mark, just a precaution most don't consider. This car will go a long way on a 1/4 of a tank.

Edited December 17, 2014 by GrySql

[ptjones]

I don't recommend running of fuel, because it can be very inconvenient, but now you don't have to sweat it when you get to 0E. :)

 

Paul

[Waldo]

You need to read the OM " Note: A fuel spillage concern may occur if overfilling the fuel tank. Do not overfill the tank to the point that the fuel is able to bypass the fuel filler nozzle. The overfilled fuel may run down the drain located below and in front of the fuel filler door." This didn't happen when I filled up.

 

This was a TEST to see what the actual capacity of the fuel tank is. It is good info for someone who inadvertently forgets to check their Miles to empty (fuel gauge) so at least they know they have 1.5gal. past 0 miles to empty. So now you know if it ever comes up. :)

 

Paul

 

Isn't that the same OM that says it's a 13.5 gallon tank? Or are you the authority on what is correct in the OM and what is not? Of course you didn't fill it beyond the filler nozzle, the fuel pump will always shut off before it gets to that point, unless the pump is broken (which happened to me a couple weeks ago on my MKT). With a properly functioning pump and capless fuel system, it is impossible to overfill beyond the nozzle. That doesn't mean fuel isn't still staying in the fill pipe.

 

Seriously, I don't know why you needed a test to confirm anything. Ford specifications are that there is 1/16th of a tank left when the gauge hits E. This is the same on every Ford.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Waldo

[ptjones]

Well lets see 1.7gal / 13.5gal= 1/8th of a tank to be accurate for a FFH. FORD doesn't have to be accurate, just cover themselves which they do usually. MPG's being one of the exceptions. IMO a lot of people would rather know than guess. :)

 

Paul

[Texasota]

As a matter of fact, "topping off" your tank can be a bad thing to do, depending on exactly what you did.

So can running the tank completely dry (hard of fuel pumps).

That is just one of the reasons that they encourage you about every way that the can to fill up when there is still a couple of gallons left.

He performs these tests on rented or borrowed cars. He could care less about damage or reduced lifespan to the fuel system and emissions components.

 

Or are you the authority on what is correct in the OM and what is not?

That appears to be the case. The parts of the OM that supports his theories and testing are correct and proper. The parts that do not fit his narrative are incorrect or simply legalize.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Texasota

[ptjones]

Actually used the OM as starting point and after checking with my service manager it was determined that what I was doing wouldn't cause any problems. OM doesn't say this would cause any problems either. Like you keep ignoring the facts your car runs out of gas many times when it goes into EV mode every time you drive it. Explain that one away. :)

 

Paul

[Easy Rider]

IMO a lot of people would rather know than guess. :)

 

And my opinion is that the VAST majority of owners don't care.......because they stop to fill up even before the bell and warning messages appear. Then most of the rest do it AT the appearance of a warning. That leaves maybe .00001 percent who tend to ignore the gauge and BOTH visual warnings and continue on anyway.

[ptjones]

And my opinion is that the VAST majority of owners don't care.......because they stop to fill up even before the bell and warning messages appear. Then most of the rest do it AT the appearance of a warning. That leaves maybe .00001 percent who tend to ignore the gauge and BOTH visual warnings and continue on anyway.

That's your opinion not mine, still think most would like to know. :)

 

Paul

[Texasota]

Like you keep ignoring the facts your car runs out of gas many times when it goes into EV mode every time you drive it. Explain that one away.

In post #3 (http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9610-ffh-has-a-141gal-fuel-tank/?p=90792) GrySql provided a detailed description of what happens when the Fuel Pump Assembly (FP) Reservoir runs dry. I suspect GrySql found this in a shop manual or similar resource.

 

Are you saying this is what happens to our FFHs everytime it cycles between the ICE and EV? I could be wrong, but I suspect that is not even close to what happens during normal driving and to characterize the normal cycling between ICE and EV the same as running the gas tank dry would be incorrect.

[Texasota]

That's your opinion not mine, still think most would like to know.

 

I'm curious if you had this same fascination with the conventional cars (ICE only) that you have owned or driven in the past? If not, why not? What is it about a hybrid that makes this such an important issue where everyone wants to know the results of your tests?

[GrySql]

I think the OP likes to puzzle things out and has fun with it. He invented a way to keep the ICE warmer in winter with his plastic grille blocker, then sold some to others for his cost (or less). He pioneered that type of cold weather mpg help for winter climate owners and deserves our thanks.

His testing methods in this case may not meet with some peoples ethics but he's doing it because he is that .0001 percent of folks who just like to know things.

The OM is one source of information but this Forum has found it contains a few errors.

 

To stay technical, the only time the FFH actually runs out of fuel in when the tank is empty.

The EV/ICE transition is not a random act, it is a complete fuel system control strategy for the 27 different ICE engine control components.

I'll quote this part:

"The fuel system supplies the fuel injectors with clean fuel at a controlled pressure. The powertrain control module (PCM) controls the fuel pump and monitors the fuel pump circuit. The PCM controls the fuel injector ON and OFF cycle duration and determines the correct timing and amount of fuel delivered."

[Texasota]

I think the OP likes to puzzle things out and has fun with it. He invented a way to keep the ICE warmer in winter with his plastic grille blocker, then sold some to others for his cost (or less). He pioneered that type of cold weather mpg help for winter climate owners and deserves our thanks.

His testing methods in this case may not meet with some peoples ethics but he's doing it because he is that .0001 percent of folks who just like to know things.

The OM is one source of information but this Forum has found it contains a few errors.

 

To stay technical, the only time the FFH actually runs out of fuel in when the tank is empty.

The EV/ICE transition is not a random act, it is a complete fuel system control strategy for the 27 different ICE engine control components.

I'll quote this part:

"The fuel system supplies the fuel injectors with clean fuel at a controlled pressure. The powertrain control module (PCM) controls the fuel pump and monitors the fuel pump circuit. The PCM controls the fuel injector ON and OFF cycle duration and determines the correct timing and amount of fuel delivered."

I like your post, GrySql. Diplomatic and well stated.

 

And, yes, I view a deliberate disregard for the property of others that has been entrusted to you as an ethical problem. The reasons for doing it are irrelevant and do not justify it. Obviously this is my opinion and I am speaking only for myself. Enough said on this subject.

[ptjones]

In post #3 (http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9610-ffh-has-a-141gal-fuel-tank/?p=90792) GrySql provided a detailed description of what happens when the Fuel Pump Assembly (FP) Reservoir runs dry. I suspect GrySql found this in a shop manual or similar resource.

 

Are you saying this is what happens to our FFHs everytime it cycles between the ICE and EV? I could be wrong, but I suspect that is not even close to what happens during normal driving and to characterize the normal cycling between ICE and EV the same as running the gas tank dry would be incorrect.

I do have the shop manual and the only thing that I see as different mechanically is the fuel in the fuel line isn't pressurized because fuel pump can't pump air. From the injectors forward it would appear to be the same. :)

 

Paul PS BTW last I checked there has been 211 views to this thread so far, apparently there are quiet a few curious about their tank size. :)

Edited December 18, 2014 by ptjones

[Waldo]

I do have the shop manual and the only thing that I see as different mechanically is the fuel in the fuel line isn't pressurized because fuel pump can't pump air. From the injectors forward it would appear to be the same. :)

 

 

But that's a BIG, BIG difference. If the computer commands injectors to open and the pressure isn't what is expected, the fuel injector won't inject as much fuel as the computer intends and you will have a lean condition. Going suddenly lean while the engine is under load can cause detonation which can lead to engine damage. On my RX7 turbo it was a well known issue that running out of fuel while on the track and running under boost would produce a blown apex seal almost every time. Now the piston rings in the FFH and just about every other ICE of the last 50 years are much more robust than the apex seals in an RX7 and the FFH doesn't have boost so the chances of causing damage are much less, but a controlled shut down by the computer is a much different scenario than running out of fuel.

[Easy Rider]

apparently there are quiet a few curious about their tank size. :)

 

An assumption that might not be true either.

Maybe there are just curious to see why anyone would bother !! ;)

[jeffo65]

apparently there are quiet a few curious about their tank size. :)

 

I am more entertained with the squabbling back and forth than the actual size of the tank. :)

 

But thanks for the research on the size of the tank.

[SteveB_TX]

:lurk: :lurk: :lurk: