AWD Hybrid Sedans

[jsolan]

Doing a quick google search for AWD Hybrids only turns up a few luxury cars out of my price range. Is there a technical limitation for putting all wheel drive in a hybrid drivetrain?

 

I'm really hoping that my next vehicle will be another hybrid, but I'd really like an AWD vehicle too. That purchase is likely several years away, but it would be nice to know if any automakers are working on this. Or maybe they exist and I just don't know how to search?

[hybridbear]

Not really practical. Tesla is planning AWD by putting an electric motor on each axle I believe. Isn't the Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD?

[jeffo65]

Subaru makes a hybrid 4x4, as does Toyota, Porsche, GM, Chevrolet, Lexus and Nissan I think. Most are SUVs, but GM/Chevy make a light Hybrid Truck. The trucks gain about a 10% mpg increase over their gas counterparts.

[corncobs]

Not really practical. Tesla is planning AWD by putting an electric motor on each axle I believe. Isn't the Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD?

Don't they have this already for the Model S or am I getting this mixed up with the Model X ?

[hybridbear]

Don't they have this already for the Model S or am I getting this mixed up with the Model X ?

Officially just Model X I think but rumors are that AWD will be offered on the Model S as well.

[hybridbear]

Subaru makes a hybrid 4x4, as does Toyota, Porsche, GM, Chevrolet, Lexus and Nissan I think. Most are SUVs, but GM/Chevy make a light Hybrid Truck. The trucks gain about a 10% mpg increase over their gas counterparts.

most of those are "mild" hybrids though which don't usually justify the cost in fuel savings. I think only the Highlander is a full hybrid with AWD.

[corncobs]

Officially just Model X I think but rumors are that AWD will be offered on the Model S as well.

Yep I just asked my friend Google and there are rumors on the tesla forum that maybe in 2015 they will add AWD for the S after X is ready.

[marklally]

I have thought for many years that adding all wheel drive to a front wheel drive full hybrid would be far more practical than with drive shafts, differentials and the associated clutches and such; in a hybrid the second drive axel would be totally electric of course and only kick in when traction was poor ( much like Ford's present all wheel drive system). It would seem to me that this would be the MOST practical way to design a hybrid pick-up truck, the front axel in the truck would be electric though. I would be surprised if this is not the arrangement when Ford does indeed produce a hybrid truck.

[Waldo]

I have thought for many years that adding all wheel drive to a front wheel drive full hybrid would be far more practical than with drive shafts, differentials and the associated clutches and such; in a hybrid the second drive axel would be totally electric of course and only kick in when traction was poor ( much like Ford's present all wheel drive system). It would seem to me that this would be the MOST practical way to design a hybrid pick-up truck, the front axel in the truck would be electric though. I would be surprised if this is not the arrangement when Ford does indeed produce a hybrid truck.

 

That's how the Lexus RX Hybrid AWD works.

 

The Ford Escape Hybrid was available with AWD, but it was just the conventional driveshaft arrangement. The thing is, if you're buying a hybrid for fuel efficiency, why would you want AWD which just consumes extra fuel? If the FFH was available as an AWD with the same AWD system as the base Fusion, it would probably have an EPA rating around 42mpg. People would compare the 42 to 47 and say that's way too much, I'll stick with the FWD.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Waldo

[kuzzi]

Expanding on what Waldo said, for fuel efficiency AWD is not the way to go. To get the very best efficiency you should have only one driven wheel and no diff. This would be unsafe, so it does not exist (except motorcycles). Even adding an electric motor to each corner of the car to drive a specific wheel would be overkill as whichever wheels were driving, they would have to pull the dead weight of the other motors.

 

The luxury and supercar markets are adding these hybrid drivetrains so the electric motors can act as a supplement to the ICE when it is not providing its best power (as in takeoff, low rpm, low torque, and gear shifting). The new hybrid Mclarens and Ferraris are like this. Same with Audi's LeMans prototype (R18 TDI e-tron Quattro). I can also see this as being very beneficial to rock crawling and towing applications.

Edited March 21, 2014 by kuzzi

[Ted Swing]

Supposedly the Tesla won't lose MPGe in the upcoming AWD Model S, but definitely a hybrid would lose a little.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Ted Swing

[ptjones]

My daughter's boy friend has a Hybrid Mariner AWD and it gets a few MPG less than my FEH. I was able to get 41mpg city with my FEH.

2010 Ford Escape L4, AWD 20-26mpg

2010 FEH AWD 30-27mpg

2010 FEH FWD 34-31mpg

As you can see the FFH AWD got 10mpg better city than non hybrid AWD. It would be nice if Ford would do it again. :)

 

Paul

[hybridbear]

Someone was listening...

 

Check out this article from GCR.

 

They aren't hybrid sedans, but they are still hybrids. Even if mostly "mild" hybrids.

[kuzzi]

Fully loaded Cayenne Diesel AWD cost less than the hybrid

[dalesky]

Diesels are another matter though, and quite prevalent in other countries, as we know. Even the best diesel sedans don't equal the mileage we get, on average with the FFH.

[Texasota]

Diesels are another matter though, and quite prevalent in other countries, as we know. Even the best diesel sedans don't equal the mileage we get, on average with the FFH.

 

I was just reading this article comparing hybrids to diesels. The author seems to have a strong preference for diesels:

 

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/diesel-vs-hybrid-get-answer-might-surprise/

[murphy]

The picture at the top of the article is a Fusion Energi.

[Ted Swing]

 

I was just reading this article comparing hybrids to diesels. The author seems to have a strong preference for diesels:

 

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/diesel-vs-hybrid-get-answer-might-surprise/

A lot of what he says is true (except for claiming that the Passat is a better car than a FFH). He does come across as biased in favor of diesels, though. Diesels are better for high speed highway driving. Hybrids are better for city driving and stop-and-go, moderate speed highway driving. You also don't have to pay as much for gas as diesel in the US.

 

The problem with getting a diesel in the US, IMO, is that there aren't many options in the midsize class. In the luxury segment there are more diesel options (BMW, Audi, etc.) and the cost of diesel compares more favorably to premium gas. However, for a normal midsize, I think Passat's the only option in the US until the Mazda 6 diesel arrives (am I missing any?). I don't consider the Passat to be equal to the FFH. If they made the Ford Mondeo Diesel available in the US, I bet Ford would win some converts, but it's probably not worth the investment given the size of the diesel market in the US.

[Texasota]

Diesels are better for high speed highway driving. Hybrids are better for city driving and stop-and-go, moderate speed highway driving. You also don't have to pay as much for gas as diesel in the US.

 

One thing I think the author neglected to mention in his comparisons is the additional cost and inconvenience of the diesel exhaust fluid (urea) that is seems to be required by these modern diesels. I am no expert on diesels so I don't know if all of them require it or not:

 

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/10/how-much-does-refilling-the-volkswagen-passat-tdis-urea-cost.html

[Ted Swing]

 

One thing I think the author neglected to mention in his comparisons is the additional cost and inconvenience of the diesel exhaust fluid (urea) that is seems to be required by these modern diesels. I am no expert on diesels so I don't know if all of them require it or not:

 

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/10/how-much-does-refilling-the-volkswagen-passat-tdis-urea-cost.html

The upcoming Mazda 6 diesel is apparently clean enough to not require it - something about the unusual compression burning up more of the emissions. However, it has been repeatedly delayed (apparently the power was not considered good enough for the American market). I was originally considering it against the FFH, which I ordered in August. Back then it was to be released any month. I'm glad I chose the FFH, because the Mazda 6 diesel still doesn't have a release date.

 

I believe the rest of diesels sold in the US require the urea system, though.

[kuzzi]

The DEF or Urea solution is not that bad. ~ 20 bucks for 3 gallon buckets (some truck stops sell it out of the pump for ~$4 per gallon) and most people I know only gotta replace it every 5k miles or so. Tuners can delete the computer requirement for it and you can run without it. Since diesels in TX don't need to go through the sniffer treatment for inspection, then there's no downside to tuning it out other than possible warranty issues and knowing you're hurting the environment as much as the Europeans.

 

Our new fire trucks drink it up like its water in the Sahara. They also do the diesel exhaust regeneration where it cleans out the system by making the exhaust suuuuuper hot by pumping diesel directly into the exhaust stream. Whoever decided to put the exhaust pipe near the tool bin on the truck deserves to be shot. Plenty of singed knees and shins from that exhaust (~1200 degrees F). However, these new trucks are extremely quiet and powerful and they have cupholders...CUPHOLDERS!!!

[ptjones]

The fuel economy numbers aren't real for Pussat or FFH, very slanted. FFH still gets better over all MPG's and is cheaper to fillup. No contest. :)

 

Paul

[GrySql]

However, these new trucks are extremely quiet and powerful and they have cupholders...CUPHOLDERS!!!

Things certainly have changed since my first days in the Fire Service.

We didn't have diesel Fire trucks when I started in the 60's, the typical Seagrave or Crown apparatus engine was a Hall-Scott 1091 cubic inch SOHC straight six with a maximum of 2100 rpm.

We'd pull the rpm governor off and could get 2800 rpm and 80 mph out of the ladder truck, the tillerman would be sliding the rear end inside the corners, woohaaa!

We'd leave an 8 tire rubber slide mark around corners.

No enclosed cabs with earphones, seatbelt's or SCBA's, every rig was open to the elements and we just yelled at each other.

 

On the hose wagons there was only one bench seat forward (Engineer & Captain) we Firemen would stand 3 abreast on the tailboard as we responded, hands only, no safety straps.

Over bumps our feet would leave the tailboard and we'd fly up so we could see over the hose bed, then fly out around corners - we'd help each other stay aboard, it was a regular trapeze act.

In the early-70's someone thought a safety belt connected to our turnout coats from the tailboard might, just might, prevent us from exiting the apparatus during responses.

Yeah, and we'd slide real brass poles in the station too, polishing them was not easy.

 

Things deteriorated after that, occupational safety came along.

...Yipes, my wife just threw a bucket of water on me because she saw I was doing THAT again... reminiscing. ;)

Sorry, I strayed off topic.... bad dog.

 

 

BTW, read this review of the Passat TDI.

Edited March 26, 2014 by GrySql

[Kcouture25]

When I was first in the market for a new vehicle several months ago, I considered many options. When my focus centered on fuel economy, I zeroed in on the VW Jetta TDI, Passat TDI, and FFH. To be honest, the FFH came into the picture later. I loved the look and luxury of the Passat TDI. The advertised 40 MPG was extremely appealing too, even when paying more for diesel fuel. In the end though, I am a Ford brand fan first and foremost. When I looked up the FFH and saw the 47 combined MPG, I was immediately interested. When I went home on leave, I made sure to do a test drive. After reading mixed reviews of the FFH, I wasn't sure what kind of mileage I would get. In my 20 minute test drive, 50/50 highway and city roads, I averaged 48 MPG. Additionally, the luxury feel of the cabin had me sold. Better mileage from a cheaper fuel definitely didn't hurt.

 

Some things that shied me away from the VW was the possible repair costs associated with imports (although a hybrid might not be much different), and the fact that I would rather buy an American owned product, even if it's assembled in Mexico. I'm very happy with the decision I made for my first ever new car. There will always be articles that make you question your own decisions, but I put a lot of thought and time into this decision, so I'm comfortable with it. The bulk of my driving will be highway, so I will just have to keep my speeds down to maximize my mileage.

[lolder]

About fire engines, in the early '40's, I was about 4 or 5 and my Dad and I were at the volunteer fire company on Sat morning. He worked for the New Jersey Bell Tel and was older so he had a deferment and didn't serve in WWII. The station fire alarm went off and he was the only driver present and he couldn't leave me alone so off we went in the Ahrens-Fox open cab with me in the right front seat ringing the bell. Just outside of town we arrived at a farm house with flames shooting through the roof. The house was saved and may be there still. That's an engraved memory. The volunteer companies of that day had sparkling antigue engines that they entered in contests.

About noise, one of the engines was a pumper with the big chrome dome in the front and a big 4 cylinder engine with little muffling. I lived a few doors from one of the chiefs. When the sirens went off, we would bike to his house and listen to a chime on his stoop that rang off a two digit code for the location. Off we'd go on our bikes to see it. If we didn't hear the chimes, we'd wait to hear that pumper as you could hear it for miles and we got there that way.

Here's a link to the company and the pumper is the upper right picture:http://www.moorestownfire.org/htmlfiles/history.html

Edited March 27, 2014 by lolder