Can I add a subwoofer to a 2014 Titanium?

[Gary Hall]

So I called Crutchfield about adding a subwoofer system to my wife's 2014 Fusion Titanium Hybrid. She has had large systems in her last few vehicles, and does not want to stop here. However, a discussion with Crutchfield left me with some pretty disapointing information. He informed me that if I wanted to add an amplifier, it would have to be 350 watts or less, and a fuse no larger than 30 amps. That is a HUGE disappoinment, as the system we had designed was roughly 2400 watts rms. (Yes, she likes it LOUD.) Please tell me that the gentleman at Crutchfield is incorrect!

 

Gary

[Toz]

Subs can interfere with the Active noise cancellation system. Some members on the forum had to disconnect the ANC mikes so their subs would work. link here http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/7091-disable-active-noise-cancellation/

Edited March 17, 2014 by Toz

[Gary Hall]

Thank you for your responce Toz. After reading through a few other posts around here I did realize that I would need to disconnect the noice cancellation. My primary question here is if I was informed correctly about the car's limitations in supporting a significant amount of boom. I was informed my a gentleman at Crutchfield that the car can only handle an amplifier with a 30amp fuse, and no greater than 300 watts. That suuuuuucks.

[murphy]

2400 watts at 12 volts is 200 amps. The battery in an FFH would last about 30 seconds with that kind of load on it.

[SteveB_TX]

In a non-hybrid you could add any needed batteries and up the output of the alternator to support the extra load. You can't do that in a hybrid. Well, at least not the FFH. :)

[SteveB_TX]

2400 watts at 12 volts is 200 amps. The battery in an FFH would last about 30 seconds with that kind of load on it.

 

If that! I can't even listen to Sirius XM for more than 15 seconds before the battery saver kicks in. The 12 volt batteries in these hybrids really suck! :(

[Toz]

 

If that! I can't even listen to Sirius XM for more than 15 seconds before the battery saver kicks in. The 12 volt batteries in these hybrids really suck! :(

I know this is off topic, but I think they have that fixed now. I have sat in my car listing to the radio/usb/sat for over an hour with no battery saver message. We should do a compairsion to see if your battery and mine are the same.

[acdii]

You can put what ever you want in the car, but I can understand why Crutchfield says they cant, Limits their liability. If they install something that can draw more amps than the charging system can maintain and blows a module, then they can be liable for repairs. Its the CYA answer. The Fusion Hybrid system is carefully designed for efficiency and weight, and since the 12V battery does not need to provide high amps for starting, it has a low CCA, and is basically used to turn on the system relays, and let the DC/DC converter provide the needed current for the car. This converter would be powering your amps, and you draw too many you could damage it, and it is a Very expensive repair. If you add capacitors and a second battery and a way to protect the DC/DC converter, you could put any system you want in it, but at what cost, that is up to your pocketbook.

[SteveB_TX]

I know this is off topic, but I think they have that fixed now. I have sat in my car listing to the radio/usb/sat for over an hour with no battery saver message. We should do a compairsion to see if your battery and mine are the same.

 

I had the reprogramming done that supposedly fixed this issue. No dice. Anyway, my battery model is: BXT 99R 390.

[Gary Hall]

I can't tell everyone how much I appreciate the help. Money is not really an issue here. (Well, not really. lol) When I told my wife what crutchfield had said, she about looked like a kid that had dropped her ice cream cone. I love her greatly and would do anything for her. That being said... :) I have found a couple items on the web and am interested in hearing some opinions...

 

First up, a blue top battery: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1HS0F03925

Not really any difference between the blue-top and its yellow-top brother, other than an extra set of posts on top for connections.

- 900 cold crank amps

- 75 A/h

 

Or perhaps an XS power? http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_38726_XS-Power-D3400.html

- 1000 cold crank amps

- 67 A/h

 

I suspect I would also need an isolator: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_46583_NVX-BIR500.html

500 Amps at 12V constant

700 Amps surge

 

If more than one battery and/or isolator is needed, that would be fine.

 

Now, lets get the notions of rapid depletion out of the way. If the thought process is LOGICAL, cool. If it revolves around how quickly a high power system would deplete the battery/batteries in 30 seconds, then please just don't. Obviously, a high power system is not a "constant" drain. My wife does occasionally like it VERY loud, but just because she CAN, doesn't mean that she always DOES. So even a 1800 - 2400 watt system, does not impose a constant 1800-2400 watt draw on the system. Lets maybe assume a 500-800 watt average "listening level".

 

I know with the system at "high power" that the car's charging system would not be able to keep up with the draw, so maybe multiple batteries are in order.

I also plan on installing a volt meter in the A-pillar to be able to keep an eye on what the auxillary battery/batteries is doing.

 

Please feel free to let me know your thoughts and/or critique the above gear.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Gary Hall

[Gary Hall]

Wow. I found a pretty nice battery at Crutchfield.com. http://www.crutchfield.com/p_122XP3000/XS-Power-XP3000.html?tp=36339#overview-tab

Thing has a 120 Ah capacity.

 

Let's check some math (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Let's assume a 500 watt constant draw (a 1000 watt system at 50%). I know that draw would not be constant, as power draw only occurs during bass notes. (Not sure how to determine average ACTUAL draw until I actually have the system in to test.) So just for kicks, let's say a 500 watt constant draw:

 

500 watts / 12 volts = @ 42 amps

 

120 Ah battery / 42 amp draw = 2.8 hrs

 

So roughly, even at a 500 watt CONSTANT level, a 120 Ah battery could supply enough juice for almost 3 hours.

 

Yes, I understand there are a few minor things here not yet considered. I know that as voltage goes down, current goes up. That's what the fuses (or in this case, breakers) are for.

Also, I have not added in the factor that while the car is "running" (on) the auxiliary battery setup is also slowly charging. (Not sure at what rate the car charges the battery).

 

Ideas / criticisms?

[acdii]

Just think, in 10 years These will be the batteries she will be needing! :) Loud systems are nice, but man do they ever take a toll on your hearing. Still trying to answer the ringing in my ears. LOL What you also have to consider is the added weight of additional batteries, they will directly affect the gas mileage. With some owners still having battery saver errors with short trips, trying to charge 2 batteries could put too much of a strain on the DC/DC charger. Curious as to what the current capacity is on the charger.

[Gary Hall]

THAT right there, is the golden question! Like I said, she doesn't usually listen to it very loud. Just very rarely. She mostly likes a solid "bump".

 

I really don't think the additional weight of a battery is really going to make THAT much of a differance. We are talking about adding around 70 lbs to a car that weighs 3,615 lbs. It's about a 2% increase in weight.

I view a bybrid as a means of saving some gas. I'm not by any means out there shaving weight off of the car for that extra .002 mpg. If that were the case I would make sure nobody ate right before riding in the car so we could save a few pounds on the gross weight. :lurk: lol

 

Yeah, in the long run I expect the vehicle will take a slight hit in the MPGs, but we're okay with that.

 

Now back to your golden question... How capable is the 2014 Ford Fusion Titanium Hybrid's charging system? :detective:

Edited March 21, 2014 by Gary Hall

[lolder]

It's not the size of the 12 v battery that's the problem, it's the DC to DC converter. A Ford document about adding electrical components to FFH's that were to be used in police work said that steady electrical load in some curcumstances was nearly 100 amps and that the DC to DC converter was 120 amps. In Florida people have been shot for having boom-boom cars. You should re-evaluate your priorities.

[Gary Hall]

Adding batteries for high-power systems is not uncommon. In the case of a hybrid, it would appear it might be neccessary to add a battery for even a modest or low-power application. The size (Ah) of a battery is ALWAYS an issue when the power source cannot sustain the load, as the longevity of the playability between charges relies upon the battery's capacity.

 

So the car's DC/DC converter is capable of 120 amps. Now THAT'S helpfull to know. The remaining unanswered question in THAT formula is how much of that the car uses (more specifically how much it DOESN'T use).

 

People being shot in Florida for having "boom-boom cars" is not relevant to this conversation and therefore of no concern to me. I was raised in Detroit and have been stationed in many states (and countries) and have never been shot (or even shot AT) for having a system in my car (or for being white, lol). I find it MORE likely to be shot at for being overly critical. So it looks like we ALL have a little to work on. :hysterical3:

 

It is also not commonplace in a technical forum to criticize someone's search for a solution to a technical problem, reguardless of how unprioritized you may perceive it to be.

 

Who knows? Maybe the only [realistic] solution in this situation is to have the DC/DC converter replaced with a higher power unit (yes, they make them) at a cost of thousands of dollars. It may not be the best or ONLY solution, but it is A solution. (Hopfully not the ONLY one :spend: )

 

My wife is okay with reducing the power expectations of her system-to-be. Our primary goal here now is to figure out what level would be reasonable to US in proportion to the cost. As I said, a second battery, an isolator, and a capacitor are not unreasonable to US.

[Da0ne]

if you are planing on going thru all that trouble i would just get a gas version

[Gary Hall]

Yeah, I would agree with you there. However, she already bought it. Like I said, she's willing to take the power reduction if she has to. (She really loves the car.) Even if the gentleman at Crutchfield was completly correct with the 30 amp / 350 watt restriction (pretty much not gonna find anything over 250 watts with a 30 amp fuse), then I will just work with the most efficient gear I can find.

This Alpine Amp: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500MRVM250/Alpine-MRV-M250.html?tp=35834

With this Infinity Sub: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_1081262W/Infinity-1262w.html?tp=111

The sub being rated for 250 watts RMS at 2 ohms, and the sub's power range to 300 watts RMS with a 93 dB sensitivity, and having dual 4-ohm coils for a 2-ohm setup (parallel) might be the best option for her.

Without going TOO far overboard here, I was basicly looking to see about adding a battery, isolator, and cap to maybe bring the RMS value up to at least around 500 watts.

[lolder]

The DC to DC converter in the FFH is an integral part of the system. It is also water cooled by the electronics cooling system. It would be difficult to get into the high voltage system and add a compatible higher capacity converter. Adding another battery in parallel is the easiest solution if you could find a place for it.

Politically, I don't believe your vehicle audio system should be heard outside of the vehicle which most boomers are. PERIOD.

[Gary Hall]

lolder, thank you for your input. My wife is actually fairly courteous when it comes to loud music. She always turns it down in the subdivision and such. She isn't really so much a boomer as she is a rocker. She likes the Ramones, Green Day, HIM, My Chemical Romance, Pink Floyd, Volbeat, and bands of that nature. Hell, even my father was against auxiliary sub systems until I added a modest sub/surround setup into his home. I started playing piano when I was 5 and trumpet when I was 6. I always try to reproduce the accuracy of sitting back in the middle of the band room. The fact of the matter is, you simply cannot accurately reproduce the lower end of the spectrum without a subwoofer. Music just sounds hollow and incomplete without it. I can truly appreciate your statement. I get pretty aggrivated when I am sitting at a light and the "boomer" in the line is blasting away.

 

As I said before, at this point we are looking to be able to achieve a modest 500 watt system. I have quite a bit of experiance with non-hybrid stereo systems, and NONE with hybrids. So I personally have NO clue how these things would impact the vehicle. If the Crutchfield rep was being cautious (as I'm sure he was) with the 30 amp, 350 watt max, would it be logical to assume that by adding a second battery (which I've never had to do, as upgrading the alternator was always the better option for me), an isolator, and a capacitor that a 500 watt system would be plausible? As I stated before, just because it would have a 500-watt system, does not really indicate that there would be a constant 500-watt draw. 99% of the time she really doesn't have it up all that loud.

 

If I were to use this: http://www.nvx.com/bir500.html

 

and this: http://www.nvx.com/accessories/capacitors-batteries/xhc600.html

 

Wired as such: http://www.nvx.com/media/wysiwyg/BIR500.pdf

 

for a 500 watt RMS stereo, does anyone think it if far too excessive for the car to handle it?

Edited March 21, 2014 by Gary Hall

[lolder]

There's nothing different about the hybrid entertainment system except the FFH has a noise canceling system that uses the system even when it's off. It also obviously doesn't cancel audio that originates in the system but if it senses a louder noise than expected that might complicate the effort. They already probably have a subwoofer but I don't know if it's indididually powered or has active feedback correction that would complicate just tapping off the subwoofer drive into the add on subwoofer system. If the subwoofer is unpowered, you might try to just piggyback on it's low inpedance input and just hook up the power supply directly to the present battery. If it doesn't work, the battery will run down and you'll get a alarm. I wouldn't put the battery paralleling system in. The DC to DC converter system carefully analyzes the battery and if it sees a different battery impedance it might sense a fault. The Ford hybrids are very finicky about the 12 v battery. I don't think there's any room in the engine compartment for another battery. I assume the 2013+ FFH's have the battery up front like the Gen 1's, Prii do not, it's in the trunk and when the battery fails, you cant open the trunk and you have to crawl into it from the back seat to get the hatch open.

Bass takes A LOT of power current sometimes for seconds at a time instead of higher frequency transients that last for milliseconds. The bass peaks are less but as you know need a lot more RMS.

I've been an audiophile for 60 years and currently have a 5.1 home entertainment system with a medium priced Polk subwoofer. I am very pleased with it as it reproduces the cannon fire in "Master and Commander" very well. I have participated in the quest for good bass since the days of Acoustic Research AR 1s, 2s, 3s etc. Bach organ music requires it. Good luck.

Edited March 21, 2014 by lolder

[Gary Hall]

Thank you again for your responses, lolder. The 12V battery is in the trunk behind a removable panel on the left side. Following suit, the second battery would also be in the trunk, mounted into a pocket built into the sub enclosure. What you are pointing out is my primary concern (how the car will respond). My hopes, were that the car would be SOMEWHAT forgiving, based on the fact that the car has multiple "power points" (as Ford calls them). There are three "cigar lighter" style sockets (one up fron, one in the center console, and one in the back seat on the back of the center console) and one 110V AC Power Point on the back of the center console. Per the manual, the "cigar-style" power points are good for 180 watts (15 amps, I believe) (total, I'm sure) and the 110V AC is good for 150 watts (looks like that would be about 1.36 amps). I know these extra "power points" are not the numbers I would need to see, but I was praying that it would mean that the car DID have some tolerances in its DC system.

 

To tell you the truth, I wonder about the source of Crutchfield's information. If they have really been told that the car can safely handle an extra amplifier rated for 30 amps and up to 350 watts (which would be about impossible to find. 250 watts I have found), then I would have to assume that the number is concervative to provide a certain safety cushion.

[Gary Hall]

Oh, and yes, the Active Noice Cancellation WOULD have to be disabled. There are several write-ups on doing this. (It primarily involves disconnecting the three in-cabin microphones.)

[Riggo]

I have no clue on any of this, but would one of these amplified subs do the job?

http://www.bazooka.com/products/mobile/Amplified-Bass-Tubes-Subwoofers-C6/BT-Series-S68

I know these get pretty loud.

[Gary Hall]

Thanks for your reply Riggo. Yes, some of those may work, but [according to Crutchfield] would still need to adhere to the limitations of the 30 amp fuse and 350 watts. Even though it is a small, compact, prebuilt system, it still uses conventional components (a sub and an amp).

[Riggo]

I thought all of those used a 15 amp fuse and were less than 350 watts. No?

So you plug it in and are done with it :). If it isn't loud enough for her then send it back, ha.

I could be totally wrong though and are reading the specs wrong.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Riggo