Your Mileage May Vary (and other rants)

[lolder]

Battery technology will get cheaper and more powerful in the coming years. Regular ICE are a mass product and "very" cheap to make and they have been made and improved for 100 years. Now how old is really usable battery technology?

Well actually electric cars have been around as long as gas ones. The word "really" is the catch and very subjective. The energy density by weight of batteries is still well short of petroleum products. We are in a transition away from petroleum and hopefully other fossil fuels. It's occuring quite rapidly from a societal point of view but slowly from advocates points of view.

[hybridbear]

Yes, I would like more BEV options on the market now but I realize the technology involved in making a practical electric vehicle is still expensive (see Tesla). Adding more hybrids and PHEVs is key in shifting more drivers towards electrified options and increasing their popularity. The problem remains that auto companies already have billions invested in developing gas power trains that sell well, giving them no incentive to develop alternative energy if not mandated to do so. We have come a long way since the early hybrids that carried hefty premiums that exceeded potential gas savings, but plug-ins are still in this boat.

 

I came very close to purchasing a Fusion Energi, but could not justify the price premium they were asking knowing that I would need to plug in more than once per day in order to cover the 30 or so miles I drive per day in pure electric mode, especially in cold weather. The Volt's range would have been ideal for me, but the car was too cramped and felt cheap. I think the sweet spot for a PHEV would be 40+ electric miles in all seasons. Once you experience the thrill of driving with nothing other than road and wind noise, it's hard to put up with the hum of a gas engine.

 

The best approach for now is to continue expanding the availability of hybrids, particularly to vehicles that share platforms with existing hybrids (i.e. Focus, Escape/MKC, Edge/MKX). Dealers should also be better educated on who best benefits from hybrids, as well as the potential cost savings. I'm sure there are many buyers who may not conventionally consider a hybrid because of association to cars like the Prius, and salesmen likely won't direct them towards one if they aren't already asking for it. I appreciate Ford's continued commitment to hybrids especially when compared to the other Detroit automakers, but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

Sometimes the PHEV can be worth it. Take a look at the calculations here. Right now with greater incentives from Ford for the Energi models they make even more sense.

[dalesky]

Most households have 2+ vehicles. It's perfectly normal to have one vehicle used for commuting and one used for longer distances. I know many people both at work and outside of work who have an SUV for trips with their kids, hauling stuff, etc but they don't drive the SUV daily because of the gas cost. Instead they have a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, etc type car that they use for commuting to save gas. The people who are already taking that approach to their car buying habits are the ones who should be targeted to buy an electric car instead of the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla as their commuter car.

I use my Fusion as my commuter and my Mustang as my Hauler- hauling a%# that is!

[dalesky]

Yes, I would like more BEV options on the market now but I realize the technology involved in making a practical electric vehicle is still expensive (see Tesla). Adding more hybrids and PHEVs is key in shifting more drivers towards electrified options and increasing their popularity. The problem remains that auto companies already have billions invested in developing gas power trains that sell well, giving them no incentive to develop alternative energy if not mandated to do so. We have come a long way since the early hybrids that carried hefty premiums that exceeded potential gas savings, but plug-ins are still in this boat.

 

I came very close to purchasing a Fusion Energi, but could not justify the price premium they were asking knowing that I would need to plug in more than once per day in order to cover the 30 or so miles I drive per day in pure electric mode, especially in cold weather. The Volt's range would have been ideal for me, but the car was too cramped and felt cheap. I think the sweet spot for a PHEV would be 40+ electric miles in all seasons. Once you experience the thrill of driving with nothing other than road and wind noise, it's hard to put up with the hum of a gas engine.

 

The best approach for now is to continue expanding the availability of hybrids, particularly to vehicles that share platforms with existing hybrids (i.e. Focus, Escape/MKC, Edge/MKX). Dealers should also be better educated on who best benefits from hybrids, as well as the potential cost savings. I'm sure there are many buyers who may not conventionally consider a hybrid because of association to cars like the Prius, and salesmen likely won't direct them towards one if they aren't already asking for it. I appreciate Ford's continued commitment to hybrids especially when compared to the other Detroit automakers, but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

My neighbor, a single woman, drives a Ford Edge, and upon seeing our hybrid considered the CMAX, but it wasn't quite to her liking. Now if there had been an Edge hybrid option I think she would have bought it. She does a lot of highway driving each year. To your point, there definitely needs to be more real hybrid options for larger vehicles. Ford and a few others are making larger sedans, but that's about it right now.

[corncobs]

Well actually electric cars have been around as long as gas ones. The word "really" is the catch and very subjective. The energy density by weight of batteries is still well short of petroleum products. We are in a transition away from petroleum and hopefully other fossil fuels. It's occuring quite rapidly from a societal point of view but slowly from advocates points of view.

Yes that why the really you are correct. Not sure where I heard that quote from but IIRC there was a number of 20% electric vehicles in the US around 1920. Please correct me with the right numbers guys.

Just because the petroleum became so cheap that electric cars went away.

[GrySql]

I use my Fusion as my commuter and my Mustang as my Hauler- hauling a%# that is!

Ditto....

[GrySql]

I saw an article where Tesla opened a charger Station in Quartzite,AZ and said it was free to use.

I'll take a look when we drive thru Quartzsite, AZ tomorrow, didn't have time this morning on the way to PHX.

Want a picture?

... And yes, we were in Oregon two weeks ago.

Gotta get my 20k oil change when we get back.

[acdii]

Toyota has the only true Hybrid SUV, however the difference is roughly 6 MPG between the ICE only and the HiHY/rxwhateveritis, but the cost difference, even used far exceeds any savings it would generate. All it does is give you that false sense of being green. The lexus twin is the 400H(or whatever it is now) and it was NOISY, and way under powered, and did not get as good MPG as it claimed.

[lolder]

The word "Fuel" is a tricky thing. Electricity and hydrogen are not fuels, they are energy transfer methods. A fuel is something that will produce more energy than it takes to prepair it. Wood snd petroleum products are an example that release stored chemical ( solar ) energy when ignited. Hydroden does not exist on Earth unbound from a molecule so that it can be ignited. Much more energy must be used to produce free hydrygen than it produces. Corn ethanol is similar. Nuclear energy I'm not sure of. Safeguards probably reduce it's net energy output close to a wash.

The ICE underwent a continuous improvement since it's invention through to today. The lead acid battery didn't change much for a hundred years. Better battery technology has only arrived in the last few decades

[hybridbear]

The word "Fuel" is a tricky thing. Electricity and hydrogen are not fuels, they are energy transfer methods. A fuel is something that will produce more energy than it takes to prepair it. Wood snd petroleum products are an example that release stored chemical ( solar ) energy when ignited. Hydroden does not exist on Earth unbound from a molecule so that it can be ignited. Much more energy must be used to produce free hydrygen than it produces. Corn ethanol is similar. Nuclear energy I'm not sure of. Safeguards probably reduce it's net energy output close to a wash.

The ICE underwent a continuous improvement since it's invention through to today. The lead acid battery didn't change much for a hundred years. Better battery technology has only arrived in the last few decades

Great point!!

[dalesky]

The word "Fuel" is a tricky thing. Electricity and hydrogen are not fuels, they are energy transfer methods. A fuel is something that will produce more energy than it takes to prepair it. Wood snd petroleum products are an example that release stored chemical ( solar ) energy when ignited. Hydroden does not exist on Earth unbound from a molecule so that it can be ignited. Much more energy must be used to produce free hydrygen than it produces. Corn ethanol is similar. Nuclear energy I'm not sure of. Safeguards probably reduce it's net energy output close to a wash.

The ICE underwent a continuous improvement since it's invention through to today. The lead acid battery didn't change much for a hundred years. Better battery technology has only arrived in the last few decades

I love the smell of a good science lesson in the morning! Seriously, thanks for the info.