Your Mileage May Vary (and other rants)

[dalesky]

I was reading through some material from a recent car show (2 weeks ago), and noticed a couple of interesting things. In the Ford all model brochure, every single vehicle shown also had the EPA mileage figures showing, prominently and separately from other text. I noticed that most manufactures did not do this, and in fact some put nothing about mileage for most vehicles.

And, And, Ford is making great looking cars as well! Every time I see a “P”, especially the new small one or the V, I think about what mediocre cars they are, with the exception of mileage and reliability.

Ford should have gone full speed ahead years ago with their hybrids. They don’t compromise any areas of what make cars fun to own and drive. Even their Transit Connect business van stands out.

 

Others of course were often all about more power, while not trying to improve mileage apparently. At least, there was no attempt to show that there were improvements. As long as gas prices are down the adverts in the paper don’t show mileage either usually. Which vehicles sell best when prices for gas are low? Trucks and large SUVs.

 

Here on the forum, most of us are very happy with the fact that we are driving a car that really gives up nothing in the way of features, and lets us save some significant money when buying gas. I have been amazed the last 2 months, that I can almost effortlessly hit 50MPG or even close to 60. Admittedly, I live in a warm climate and it is very flat most places. I also don’t drive during busy traffic times most of the time. Still, even with quite a bit of stop and go, once I get on a roadway with a speed limit of 55, my whole trip will average close to or over the EPA figure.

 

Also in this literature I came across an interesting article about how the EPA tests cars, and the fact that they really test only between 10 and 15 percent of all vehicles that are submitted to them. The rest, and we don’t know which ones they were, are calculated and submitted to the EPA by the car manufacturers. All of the cars tested by the EPA, as most of us know, are tested under conditions that are not actually on a road, with other cars, and with varying weather conditions.

 

There are no tests for a car with 4 people in it. There are no tests for rainy conditions, or snowy roads. No tests for the effect of weight at all, which is more significant the lighter the car is generally. They don’t have different types of drivers, some with an “egg on the pedal”, some with a “lead foot”. Some who tailgate, some who coast as much as possible.

 

The more consistent we are with how we drive, the better our mileage. That’s really my point. We have a car that is designed to give great mileage, and it is largely up to us to work at achieving it, or not. It’s up to us. Kudos to Ford for what they are doing.

[rjent]

Hear him! :)

 

Well said, I couldn't be happier with mine ...

[djminfll]

While I'm not quite able to achieve the MPG figures that dalesky gets, but ever since the software update in August, I am very happy with the MPG on my FFH. My last tankful was 46mpg and that included a bit of family driving with 4 passengers. I also have maintained my lifetime MPG on the dashboard, and within the next couple of fill-ups, my overall lifetime MPG should hit 43mpg (keep in mind, my fully signature represents only from August onward when the software update occurred.)

 

That is why I was so disappointed to read the postings by Richard Goodwin regarding his FFH. it really seems like he got a bad one - not just the MPG factor, but so many quality issues that most of us have not experienced.

Edited December 3, 2013 by djminfll

[djminfll]

To add to the posting above, I filled up earlier today, got 46mpg this fill-up. Since the fill-up, I have been running approx 51mpg on this tankful, and my lifetime MPG average is now 43mpg!

:yahoo: :yahoo:

[hermans]

To add to the posting above, I filled up earlier today, got 46mpg this fill-up. Since the fill-up, I have been running approx 51mpg on this tankful, and my lifetime MPG average is now 43mpg!

:yahoo: :yahoo:

On my FFH lifetime is 44.4, but I expect it will drop like it did last winter. I recently took the the same 1,200 mile trip I did last Summer and averaged 41 MPG. Last Summer it was 45MPG same exact route, but now with snow and ice and the temp never getting above freezing and dipping into the teens. Lots of mountains.

Edited December 4, 2013 by hermans

[lolder]

I took my S. Florida based 2010 to Texas last week. I drove north from Beaumont to Lufkin in 50º F weather at 75 mph against 15 mph winds. I got 30 mpg on that leg. I'm back in Florida with my lifetime 41 mpg. Brrrrrrr ! !

[dalesky]

I think we all agree, if we live in a 'cold' state, Winter can really suck, and not just because of the mileage hit on our cars!

When I moved South I sold or gave away 7 snow shovels and 1 large snow blower, not to mention a rubber squeegee made for mucking out barns, so that I could move the melting show and ice from my garage floor. Of course it would end up on my driveway, and freeze solid so then I had to use the large ice shipper to remove it from the drive. Such fond memories!

Did I mention that Winter usually was close to 6 months long?

[Toz]

I think we all agree, if we live in a 'cold' state, Winter can really suck, and not just because of the mileage hit on our cars!

When I moved South I sold or gave away 7 snow shovels and 1 large snow blower, not to mention a rubber squeegee made for mucking out barns, so that I could move the melting show and ice from my garage floor. Of course it would end up on my driveway, and freeze solid so then I had to use the large ice shipper to remove it from the drive. Such fond memories!

Did I mention that Winter usually was close to 6 months long?

and yet you must have fond memories of winter, after all you drive a reminder of chilly times <Ice Storm HyTi>

[corncobs]

and yet you must have fond memories of winter, after all you drive a reminder of chilly times <Ice Storm HyTi>

Awesome connection Toz LOL

[djminfll]

I always thought I would miss the four seasons, but after being in South Florida for 20 years, I'm now freezing when temps drop below 50F! While I hate the prospect of hurricane threats for 6 months out of the year, I could never go back to shoveling snow, scraping ice off my windshield, worrying about skidding on black ice, and having a build-up of salt and sand on the lower half of the car. And now that I have the hybrid, I like the idea that it never really gets cold, so my mpg are pretty consistent year-round.

Edited December 6, 2013 by djminfll

[dalesky]

I always thought I would miss the four seasons, but after being in South Florida for 20 years, I'm now freezing when temps drop below 50F! While I hate the prospect of hurricane threats for 6 months out of the year, I could never go back to shoveling snow, scraping ice off my windshield, worrying about skidding on black ice, and having a build-up of salt and sand on the lower half of the car. And now that I have the hybrid, I like the idea that it never really gets cold, so my mpg are pretty consistent year-round.

I used to tell people, when asked if I was worried about hurricanes, that I would rather take the chance of one, rather than the certainty of 6 months of Winter every year.

The last hurricane here was '89, and I live inland far enough to be"officially" off of the flood plane. Hopefully!

My house is put together for hurricane winds, and I have window coverings too. And a generator

[timf]

As long as gas prices are down the adverts in the paper dont show mileage either usually. Which vehicles sell best when prices for gas are low? Trucks and large SUVs.

It's amazing how people get desensitized to gas prices. $3 a gallon gas is not low. 5 years ago people were panicking when it first hit that mark. Truck and SUV fuel economy may be slightly improved over where it was a decade ago, but anything under 20 MPG real world is still abysmal. A lot of people may not even give a second thought to the price of gas, but I think it's ridiculous the games oil companies play with the prices.

 

The sooner I can get completely off gas the better, but in the meantime hybrid options need to increase. Car companies still aren't expanding electrified options as fast or wide as they should. There should be more in the crossover realm by now, but they never seem to show up other than pointless mild hybrid setups. I'm happy with my new car, but I would have loved to have bought something for the long term rather than leasing another hold-me-over hoping there are more options in 2 years.

[Texasota]

Car companies still aren't expanding electrified options as fast or wide as they should. There should be more in the crossover realm by now, but they never seem to show up other than pointless mild hybrid setups. I'm happy with my new car, but I would have loved to have bought something for the long term rather than leasing another hold-me-over hoping there are more options in 2 years.

 

 

Electric cars are huge money losers for the manufactures and they are money losers because sales are abysmal. Sales are abysmal because of range anxiety issues and the high cost resulting in very low demand. The depreciation rates of electric cars are also much worse than conventional cars because there is even less market demand for used electric cars. This is unlikely to change until there are huge improvements in battery technology and the price of electric vehicles become competitive with conventional cars.

[hybridbear]

Electric cars are huge money losers for the manufactures and they are money losers because sales are abysmal. Sales are abysmal because of range anxiety issues and the high cost resulting in very low demand. The depreciation rates of electric cars are also much worse than conventional cars because there is even less market demand for used electric cars. This is unlikely to change until there are huge improvements in battery technology and the price of electric vehicles become competitive with conventional cars.

Range anxiety is all in peoples' heads. Range anxiety is why PHEVs are a great option. The manufacturers wouldn't lose so much money on their cars if they would actually try to promote them and sell them. If they trained dealer salespeople to educate consumers on the value of PHEVs and hybrids then they would sell more. If they sold more then their economies of scale would improve leading to less loss and then profit. However, just like GM did with the EV1, the manufacturers try to claim that there isn't demand out there for these cars.

[hybridbear]

 

It's amazing how people get desensitized to gas prices. $3 a gallon gas is not low. 5 years ago people were panicking when it first hit that mark. Truck and SUV fuel economy may be slightly improved over where it was a decade ago, but anything under 20 MPG real world is still abysmal. A lot of people may not even give a second thought to the price of gas, but I think it's ridiculous the games oil companies play with the prices.

 

The sooner I can get completely off gas the better, but in the meantime hybrid options need to increase. Car companies still aren't expanding electrified options as fast or wide as they should. There should be more in the crossover realm by now, but they never seem to show up other than pointless mild hybrid setups. I'm happy with my new car, but I would have loved to have bought something for the long term rather than leasing another hold-me-over hoping there are more options in 2 years.

I agree!! I wish there were more hybrid options in the crossover/SUV segment. For example, a gas Fusion might get 30 MPG and a FFH might get 45 MPG for a certain consumer. That is an increase of 50%! That means they would be buying only 2/3 the gas for the FFH that they would have needed in the gas Fusion. If someone drives 10,000 miles a year that would save them about 111 gallons. However, if you took a crossover that gets 20 MPG and made a hybrid version that gets 30 MPG you're still seeing an increase of 50% in fuel economy, but the gas savings are greater because the 20 MPG vehicle uses more fuel. In this case the person would save 167 gallons of gas over 10,000 miles. If you wanted to save the same 111 gallons per 10,000 miles that the FFH would save someone over a gas Fusion then the crossover would only need to increase from 20 MPG to 25.7 MPG.

 

With their C-Max Energi my parents are saving over $100 per month versus the 2000 Chrysler 300M that was replaced by the C-Max. They're saving over $100 per month (including the electricity cost) even though they don't drive much! That's amazing!

Edited December 8, 2013 by hybridbear

[dalesky]

Range anxiety is all in peoples' heads. Range anxiety is why PHEVs are a great option. The manufacturers wouldn't lose so much money on their cars if they would actually try to promote them and sell them. If they trained dealer salespeople to educate consumers on the value of PHEVs and hybrids then they would sell more. If they sold more then their economies of scale would improve leading to less loss and then profit. However, just like GM did with the EV1, the manufacturers try to claim that there isn't demand out there for these cars.

What makes those truths even more odd is the fact the the average MPG that manufacturers are being required to hit, under CAFE rules, is very achievable. To what TIMF said, yes, why aren't there some true hybrid options for anything other than sedans? I think Honda has a hit coming with their Accord Hybrid, but how about their van or the small SUVs? Honda does sell diesel vans by the way, just not in the U.S.

 

I get why people like bigger vehicles, and I think the demand is there for them to be much more fuel efficient. America will always be the land of long distance drivers, who want to haul people and stuff in comfort.

I live in a tourist area, and I see a majority of visitors driving larger vehicles, not 2 or 4 door sedans. I don't think most of them would care if the vehicle had a diesel or a real hybrid. Subaru has come out with some kind of strange "hybrid" that uses a little electric motor, but really doesn't improve mileage, nor is it a real hybrid. I think they said that they are afraid to compromise the functionality that their customers want.

 

In places I have traveled to in Europe the vehicles are almost always small to very small, and diesel. We probably won't see many diesels, but there are some signs of change finally.

Fuel prices are often significantly higher for diesel, which of course holds down demand for those engines. Maybe with more demand prices will equalize a bit.

[B25Nut]

As has been said here before, the cost of producing a diesel ICE that meets our current pollution standards is the diesel's biggest hurdle.

HB, going from 30 mpg to 45 mpg is a 50% increase. A 100% increase would be 60 mpg.

The 34.5 mpg CAFE standard that goes into effect in 2016 may be doable, but the 54.5 mpg standard for 2025 is pie in the sky.

[Texasota]

Range anxiety is all in peoples' heads. Range anxiety is why PHEVs are a great option. The manufacturers wouldn't lose so much money on their cars if they would actually try to promote them and sell them. If they trained dealer salespeople to educate consumers on the value of PHEVs and hybrids then they would sell more. If they sold more then their economies of scale would improve leading to less loss and then profit. However, just like GM did with the EV1, the manufacturers try to claim that there isn't demand out there for these cars.

 

Timf's post was suggesting that manufactures should be offering more battery-only electric vehicle choices. At least that is how I read his post because of his paragraph that began with "The sooner I can get completely off gas the better...". In the case of battery-only electric vehicles range anxiety is definitely not "all in peoples heads" as these vehicles typically have a range of less than 100 miles and are completely unsuited for a cross country trip.

 

Even the Tesla (which claims a 300 mile range) is unsuited for a cross country trip since there is no network of charging stations and not likely to be any in the foreseeable future. Assuming there was a network of recharging stations very few consumers would be willing to endure a multi-hour layover for recharging during the 500 mile trip to grandma's house. Even if these cars could be recharged in 30 minutes very few consumers would tolerate that when they can fill up a conventional car or hybrid in 2-3 minutes and resume their road trip.

 

Hybrids and plug-in hybrids provide a great solution to the very real range anxiety issue. But battery-only electric vehicles will remain huge money losers for manufactures until they become cost competitive and the battery issues are solved.

[hybridbear]

What makes those truths even more odd is the fact the the average MPG that manufacturers are being required to hit, under CAFE rules, is very achievable. To what TIMF said, yes, why aren't there some true hybrid options for anything other than sedans? I think Honda has a hit coming with their Accord Hybrid, but how about their van or the small SUVs? Honda does sell diesel vans by the way, just not in the U.S.

 

I get why people like bigger vehicles, and I think the demand is there for them to be much more fuel efficient. America will always be the land of long distance drivers, who want to haul people and stuff in comfort.

I live in a tourist area, and I see a majority of visitors driving larger vehicles, not 2 or 4 door sedans. I don't think most of them would care if the vehicle had a diesel or a real hybrid. Subaru has come out with some kind of strange "hybrid" that uses a little electric motor, but really doesn't improve mileage, nor is it a real hybrid. I think they said that they are afraid to compromise the functionality that their customers want.

 

In places I have traveled to in Europe the vehicles are almost always small to very small, and diesel. We probably won't see many diesels, but there are some signs of change finally.

Fuel prices are often significantly higher for diesel, which of course holds down demand for those engines. Maybe with more demand prices will equalize a bit.

You're right! The mild hybrid offerings don't do much to improve fuel economy and often cost too much to be worth it.

 

As has been said here before, the cost of producing a diesel ICE that meets our current pollution standards is the diesel's biggest hurdle.

HB, going from 30 mpg to 45 mpg is a 50% increase. A 100% increase would be 60 mpg.

The 34.5 mpg CAFE standard that goes into effect in 2016 may be doable, but the 54.5 mpg standard for 2025 is pie in the sky.

Oops! I meant that 45 MPG is 150% of 30 MPG. I mixed up my terminology.

Timf's post was suggesting that manufactures should be offering more battery-only electric vehicle choices. At least that is how I read his post because of his paragraph that began with "The sooner I can get completely off gas the better...". In the case of battery-only electric vehicles range anxiety is definitely not "all in peoples heads" as these vehicles typically have a range of less than 100 miles and are completely unsuited for a cross country trip.

 

Even the Tesla (which claims a 300 mile range) is unsuited for a cross country trip since there is no network of charging stations and not likely to be any in the foreseeable future. Assuming there was a network of recharging stations very few consumers would be willing to endure a multi-hour layover for recharging during the 500 mile trip to grandma's house. Even if these cars could be recharged in 30 minutes very few consumers would tolerate that when they can fill up a conventional car or hybrid in 2-3 minutes and resume their road trip.

 

Hybrids and plug-in hybrids provide a great solution to the very real range anxiety issue. But battery-only electric vehicles will remain huge money losers for manufactures until they become cost competitive and the battery issues are solved.

What I meant is that many people think their commute is too long for an electric car when that isn't really the case. In that sense the range anxiety is "all in their head" because they think they drive too many miles to be able to get by with the 80 mile Leaf range, for example. Or they think they drive too many miles a day for a PHEV like a Volt or an Energi to make sense. It took a bit of convincing with my parents for them to realize that they rarely drive more than 20 miles in a day. Because of their driving patterns the Energi is a great option for them. A PHEV with the range of the Volt would've been better, but the Volt is too low to the ground for them so the C-Max was the only PHEV option for them. Because they do a lot of trips less than 4 miles their gas only cars would be always warming up and running inefficiently. With a PHEV they're able to do all this trips on electricity with no penalty for warm-up.

[Texasota]

What I meant is that many people think their commute is too long for an electric car when that isn't really the case. In that sense the range anxiety is "all in their head" because they think they drive too many miles to be able to get by with the 80 mile Leaf range, for example.

Only a very small percentage of consumers will purchase a car with the intended usage being only for a short trip commuter car. To sell to the masses a car has to be practical for both short urban trips and for longer distance highway trips. The idea of buying a separate vehicle dedicated to short urban trips becomes even more unappealing when the battery-only electric vehicle costs nearly twice as much as a conventional car ($35,200 for a Focus electric vs. $18,625 for a Focus SE). These battery-only electric cars are doomed to failure and will continue to be enormous money losers for the manufactures unless these challenges can be overcome. The challenges and problems go way beyond marketing.

[corncobs]

Battery technology will get cheaper and more powerful in the coming years. Regular ICE are a mass product and "very" cheap to make and they have been made and improved for 100 years. Now how old is really usable battery technology?

[ptjones]

Only a very small percentage of consumers will purchase a car with the intended usage being only for a short trip commuter car. To sell to the masses a car has to be practical for both short urban trips and for longer distance highway trips. The idea of buying a separate vehicle dedicated to short urban trips becomes even more unappealing when the battery-only electric vehicle costs nearly twice as much as a conventional car ($35,200 for a Focus electric vs. $18,625 for a Focus SE). These battery-only electric cars are doomed to failure and will continue to be enormous money losers for the manufactures unless these challenges can be overcome. The challenges and problems go way beyond marketing.

I saw an article where Tesla opened a charger Station in Quartzite,AZ and said it was free to use. It only takes half an hour to charge, so you could go from LA to Phoenix with one stop in a Tesla S. Not great, but not bad. The future is coming. :)

 

Paul

[GrySql]

I saw an article where Tesla opened a charger Station in Quartzite,AZ and said it was free to use.

They are putting them up all over.

But we can't use them, those charging stations are a special type for Tesla owners only, and urge Tesla owners to notify them if they see 'other' model cars attempting to use them.

[hybridbear]

Only a very small percentage of consumers will purchase a car with the intended usage being only for a short trip commuter car. To sell to the masses a car has to be practical for both short urban trips and for longer distance highway trips. The idea of buying a separate vehicle dedicated to short urban trips becomes even more unappealing when the battery-only electric vehicle costs nearly twice as much as a conventional car ($35,200 for a Focus electric vs. $18,625 for a Focus SE). These battery-only electric cars are doomed to failure and will continue to be enormous money losers for the manufactures unless these challenges can be overcome. The challenges and problems go way beyond marketing.

Most households have 2+ vehicles. It's perfectly normal to have one vehicle used for commuting and one used for longer distances. I know many people both at work and outside of work who have an SUV for trips with their kids, hauling stuff, etc but they don't drive the SUV daily because of the gas cost. Instead they have a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, etc type car that they use for commuting to save gas. The people who are already taking that approach to their car buying habits are the ones who should be targeted to buy an electric car instead of the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla as their commuter car.

Edited December 9, 2013 by hybridbear

[timf]

Yes, I would like more BEV options on the market now but I realize the technology involved in making a practical electric vehicle is still expensive (see Tesla). Adding more hybrids and PHEVs is key in shifting more drivers towards electrified options and increasing their popularity. The problem remains that auto companies already have billions invested in developing gas power trains that sell well, giving them no incentive to develop alternative energy if not mandated to do so. We have come a long way since the early hybrids that carried hefty premiums that exceeded potential gas savings, but plug-ins are still in this boat.

 

I came very close to purchasing a Fusion Energi, but could not justify the price premium they were asking knowing that I would need to plug in more than once per day in order to cover the 30 or so miles I drive per day in pure electric mode, especially in cold weather. The Volt's range would have been ideal for me, but the car was too cramped and felt cheap. I think the sweet spot for a PHEV would be 40+ electric miles in all seasons. Once you experience the thrill of driving with nothing other than road and wind noise, it's hard to put up with the hum of a gas engine.

 

The best approach for now is to continue expanding the availability of hybrids, particularly to vehicles that share platforms with existing hybrids (i.e. Focus, Escape/MKC, Edge/MKX). Dealers should also be better educated on who best benefits from hybrids, as well as the potential cost savings. I'm sure there are many buyers who may not conventionally consider a hybrid because of association to cars like the Prius, and salesmen likely won't direct them towards one if they aren't already asking for it. I appreciate Ford's continued commitment to hybrids especially when compared to the other Detroit automakers, but there's still plenty of room for improvement.