Hypermiling

[rjent]

Hypermiling.

OK, I am confused. I have been reading on Hypermiling in a hybrid. The theory says to accelerate to 50 or so, then coast at neutral battery usage until 30 or so then repeat. According to the articles, "neutral" means so battery usage or no battery charging.

Now, that flys in the face of my understanding of how a hybrid works. I thought that the engine propelling the car at a steady state speed for say a 50/50 duty cycle. The engine gets say 25 mpg during the power cycle and recharging the batteries, then the electric power cycle propels the car at infinite mpg for the same distance effectively resulting in 50 mpg (hypothetical).

So, is the first paragraph accurate? and is the second?

Thanks for any insight ..... :)

 

PS, I know I can get 40 mpg or so out of my classic Corvettes by running up to 70 or so and then putting the manual transmission into neutral and cutting the engine and coast down to 50, then restart and repeat. It does work, pain the the rear, but it does work ....

[B25Nut]

I'm a novice at this, but if paragraph one is correct, I hope there aren't any FFH drivers that use the technique. Being behind someone doing it would bring my road rage to a boil. We should be driving at near a steady state for safety and courtesy reasons. Getting a few more MPGs isn't worth being considered an idiot by other drivers, and it's not the image most of us want the Fusion Hybrid to have.

[rjent]

I'm a novice at this, but if paragraph one is correct, I hope there aren't any FFH drivers that use the technique. Being behind someone doing it would bring my road rage to a boil. We should be driving at near a steady state for safety and courtesy reasons. Getting a few more MPGs isn't worth being considered an idiot by other drivers, and it's not the image most of us want the Fusion Hybrid to have.

I, thank God, live in a state, and an area in the state, that has very light traffic so we can do this without interfering with anyone. I am thinking hypothetically here and technically. Is the second paragraph of the OP correct? I know that a prius, as an example can be hypermiled to 80 mpg or more using 1st paragraph's technique. Basically I am just trying to get my mind around this whole .... hybrid .... thing .... ;)

Edited March 21, 2013 by rjent

[DeeCee]

I'm a novice at this, but if paragraph one is correct, I hope there aren't any FFH drivers that use the technique. Being behind someone doing it would bring my road rage to a boil. We should be driving at near a steady state for safety and courtesy reasons. Getting a few more MPGs isn't worth being considered an idiot by other drivers, and it's not the image most of us want the Fusion Hybrid to have.

Agree whole heartedly. Driving like that is an accident waiting to happen unless you are the only one on the road.Just drive normally and enjoy the ride. I still see 40+ mpg without any special hypermiling effort.

[GrySql]

I feel the term 'hypermiling' is a broader paint brush than just one way of optimizing the hybrids potential.

There are several techniques that can help any driver in any car get better mpg's, and some that only apply to hybrids.

Using the EV portion of the hybrid to maximize the cars mpg's is hypermiling, to me anyway.

 

Moderation in building up speed coming down a hill and bleeding off a little speed going up a hill shouldn't bother other traffic.

In fact, it is the most common thing that happens with most cars in hilly terrain, the Prius and other small displacement economy cars are (in)famous for that.

Vehicles towing trailers and 18-wheelers usually do the same thing. My normal highway driving is with Cruise Control and this phenomenon is very apparent.

 

I think what we are trying to do is increase the SOC on the way down and let the EV system help the car on the up, thereby achieving the maximum mpg's.

That, in fact, is what the FFH's Eco Cruise Control is supposed to be doing, a slight slowing going up and storing HEV SOC on the way down.

Your Corvette analogy is what the FFH's computer does, turns off the ICE when coasting, letting the eCVT build up the SOC for the next objective.

 

Any extreme driving tactic in traffic is dangerous but your state's 'light' traffic offers you a chance to try just about anything.

Around dense (cars and brains) traffic like we have my mileage suffers because I don't pay as much attention to my hybrid driving skills as I should.

I end up just driving the way that fits my temperment and pleasure.

 

Hybridbear has shown some mathematical examples in actual gallons used at varying mpg's.

I love that way of thinking about what my car is doing.

Being aware of the hybrids capabilities and using good techniques can make a difficult trip very pleasurable.

A few extra gallons in a long trip is not quite as important to me as getting there happy and comfortable, my FFH allows me high mileage doing that.

I get to have the cake and eat it too... :)

Edited March 22, 2013 by GrySql

[rjent]

I feel the term 'hypermiling' is a broader paint brush than just one way of optimizing the hybrids potential.

There are several techniques that can help any driver in any car get better mpg's, and some that only apply to hybrids.

Using the EV portion of the hybrid to maximize the cars mpg's is hypermiling, to me anyway.

 

Moderation in building up speed coming down a hill and bleeding off a little speed going up a hill shouldn't bother other traffic.

In fact, it is the most common thing that happens with most cars in hilly terrain, the Prius and other small displacement economy cars are (in)famous for that.

Vehicles towing trailers and 18-wheelers usually do the same thing. My normal highway driving is with Cruise Control and this phenomenon is very apparent.

 

I think what we are trying to do is increase the SOC on the way down and let the EV system help the car on the up, thereby achieving the maximum mpg's.

That, in fact, is what the FFH's Eco Cruise Control is supposed to be doing, a slight slowing going up and storing HEV SOC on the way down.

Your Corvette analogy is what the FFH's computer does, turns off the ICE when coasting, letting the eCVT build up the SOC for the next objective.

 

Any extreme driving tactic in traffic is dangerous but your state's 'light' traffic offers you a chance to try just about anything.

Around dense (cars and brains) traffic like we have my mileage suffers because I don't pay as much attention to my hybrid driving skills as I should.

I end up just driving the way that fits my temperment and pleasure.

 

Hybridbear has shown some mathematical examples in actual gallons used at varying mpg's.

I love that way of thinking about what my car is doing.

Being aware of the hybrids capabilities and using good techniques can make a difficult trip very pleasurable.

A few extra gallons in a long trip is not quite as important to me as getting there happy and comfortable, my FFH's allows me that.

I get to eat the cake... :)

 

Outstanding answer/post Mr./Mrs. Sql!

 

It is not my intention of "hypermiling" the FFH. I am trying to get my mind around how the theory works. I am very technical (my wife says something about anal or something like that ... ) and I like to understand the reasons why, not just the results.

 

It just seemed to me that hypermiling the prius NOT using battery was counter productive, but after thinking about it, you are saving the energy "expense" of recharging the batteries. That is still a mystery to me. I has always seemed to me that the battery charge/recharge cycle is actually counter productive. Hilly terrain, yes, I can see using the inertia of the vehicle to regen, but on flat ground, I still don't get how we can "rubberband" the hybrid drive by charging and recharging and draining and redraining a set of batteries to get us better mileage.

[GrySql]

Using the term 'the way down' can mean coasting, braking or anything that allows the SOC to rise.

Inversely, 'going up' can mean accelerating, cruising on level or uphill terrain or anything that lowers the SOC.

It is becoming apparent to me that these new generation FFH's like the SOC to be above half way, doing whatever driving technique that keeps the SOC high is where you'll get the best mpg's in a properly running FFH.

Using the ICE to charge the HEV is not the best use of the system, but it's a necessary part of it.

The technology that lies behind that observation I will leave for more qualified folks, as a 1st time hybrid owner this is a learning curve for me.

 

BTW, Mrs. Sql does not hypermile, she is old school - get in, drive, get out - all done!

Me, as Mr. Sql, well, sometimes I feel like a nut. The FFH does it's best for both of us.

 

 

[lolder]

"I still don't get how we can "rubberband" the hybrid drive by charging and recharging and draining and redraining a set of batteries to get us better mileage. "

 

You can't that's why getting the SOC up high so the system is reluctant to go into EV may work the best below 62 mph. I don't know how you can keep it there if the system wants the SOC lower.

[acdii]

I'm a novice at this, but if paragraph one is correct, I hope there aren't any FFH drivers that use the technique. Being behind someone doing it would bring my road rage to a boil. We should be driving at near a steady state for safety and courtesy reasons. Getting a few more MPGs isn't worth being considered an idiot by other drivers, and it's not the image most of us want the Fusion Hybrid to have.

And here is the reason I was not so thrilled with how it was explained to me on how this car needs to be driven to get what they were getting. I never had to drive this way to get good numbers in the other 3 I owned. It is also the main reason I created that video, to show what I was shown in order to get 40 MPG for their road test in order to say, Sorry, nothing wrong. I can't drive like that, and I dont like it when others do either. I also bet none of you guys who are doing good with them drive like this, am I correct?

 

After some experimenting with different techniques I am able to do slightly better than I was before, and hoping with warmer weather that I can do much better. The SOC seems to be the biggest detriment to my particular car, the higher the SOC the better it gets.

[rjent]

I think code_warrior's video proves my point. Flat ground, no hills, sustained speeds for close to 30 miles and he get close to 50 mpg. The car will do it, I just don't understand the physics of it .... ;)

 

You can't that's why getting the SOC up high so the system is reluctant to go into EV may work the best below 62 mph. I don't know how you can keep it there if the system wants the SOC lower.

 

And here is the reason I was not so thrilled with how it was explained to me on how this car needs to be driven to get what they were getting. I never had to drive this way to get good numbers in the other 3 I owned. It is also the main reason I created that video, to show what I was shown in order to get 40 MPG for their road test in order to say, Sorry, nothing wrong. I can't drive like that, and I dont like it when others do either. I also bet none of you guys who are doing good with them drive like this, am I correct?

After some experimenting with different techniques I am able to do slightly better than I was before, and hoping with warmer weather that I can do much better. The SOC seems to be the biggest detriment to my particular car, the higher the SOC the better it gets.

Edited March 22, 2013 by rjent

[Code_Warrior]

I think code_warrior's video proves my point. Flat ground, no hills, sustained speeds for close to 30 miles and he get close to 50 mpg. The car will do it, I just don't understand the physics of it .... ;)

I think I understand it but I am not sure if I can explain it. But here is an attempt.

 

When your car is going 40 MPH you have a 4 cylinder engine that is producing more power than is needed. You could go 40 MPH with a 1 cylinder engine. A 1 cylinder engine however would have poor acceleration so it would take a long time to get to 40 MPH, hence, a 4 cylinder engine is needed for the acceleration, not the steady state speed.

 

So, when your 4 cylinder engine is driving the car at 40 MPH, you can put an electrical generator on it and produce electricity with very little additional fuel consumption because the engine is producing more energy than required to go 40 MPH.

 

The critical factor in all this is gear ratio and the engineers seem to have this figured out with an amazing transmission.

[B25Nut]

I hope all 2013 FFH owners get to get this series of posts, especially GrySql's, which I feel covers over 90% of what needs to be said about the subject.

[mokee]

It's interesting Code_Warrior cites 40 mph in his explanation. Since 2000, I put significant numbers of miles on 7 new Ford products . All of them have had a mpg sweet spot at or around 45 mph.

[rjent]

When I just read this it reminds me of an article I read in the 70's in Mother Earth News, that talked about some peeps that actually replace the AC compressor with a 7 hp Briggs and Stratton one cylinder thumper, to prove the point that at highway speeds, even in the huge boats we were driving back then, the engine only needs to make 3 or 4 HP to MAINTAIN level ground (the rest of the HP from 7 was driving the dead weight of the freewheeling engine). They got my attention back then (I was in my 20's).

 

What you said makes perfect sense. There is going to be wasted KW's with the four cylinder engine at cruise, so .... why not recharge the batteries with it.......

 

Brilliant! :hi5:

 

Great post! :worship:

 

Thanks!

I think I understand it but I am not sure if I can explain it. But here is an attempt.

When your car is going 40 MPH you have a 4 cylinder engine that is producing more power than is needed. You could go 40 MPH with a 1 cylinder engine. A 1 cylinder engine however would have poor acceleration so it would take a long time to get to 40 MPH, hence, a 4 cylinder engine is needed for the acceleration, not the steady state speed.

So, when your 4 cylinder engine is driving the car at 40 MPH, you can put an electrical generator on it and produce electricity with very little additional fuel consumption because the engine is producing more energy than required to go 40 MPH.

The critical factor in all this is gear ratio and the engineers seem to have this figured out with an amazing transmission.

[acdii]

It does make perfect sense, and when working correctly look what it can achieve!

[elle]

What you're describing is called "pulse and glide" and some people take it to extremes. You don't have to do it this way to see results. I use P&G but I will only allow about a 5-7 MPH variance in speed. So speed up to 45, coast for 10 seconds in EV, and accelerate slightly again. I still get some mileage improvement but I'm not holding up traffic or making other drivers angry doing it.

Edited March 24, 2013 by elle

[acdii]

That is basically how I drive too. Works well in my 2010 but for some odd reason not in "my" 13, but appears its working fine in everyone elses. Very light throttle maintain speed within a few MPH, coasting but not taking the foot completely off, but keeping it so that there is no activity on the battery. No hard accelerating but aggressive enough not to get bubba riding your back side. Once up to speed back out of it until the instant is hovering around the 40 MPG mark in the 10, EV switching in the 13. Keeping battery around 50% at highway speeds seems to work best too, might be different in others cars though, so this last part needs to be confirmed.

[lolder]

It actually takes 12-15 hp. to drive these midsize cars 50 mph. These ICEs are always run at the slowest RPM and almost wide open throttle that will produce the power required. The FFH can run very efficiently at 15 hp. When you get below that the ICE efficiency starts to drop off and that's when the generator load is added and the EV cycling becomes more efficient. The problem with the 2013 is it allows EV cycles at too high a speed.

[rjent]

I didn't realize there was a problem.... Care to enlighten me. :)

 

I also disagree about the hp needed but it is a moot point. The fact that it needs a small amt of hp to propel the car is really all that matters ....

 

It actually takes 12-15 hp. to drive these midsize cars 50 mph. These ICEs are always run at the slowest RPM and almost wide open throttle that will produce the power required. The FFH can run very efficiently at 15 hp. When you get below that the ICE efficiency starts to drop off and that's when the generator load is added and the EV cycling becomes more efficient. The problem with the 2013 is it allows EV cycles at too high a speed.

[ace8726872]

I didn't realize there was a problem.... Care to enlighten me. :)

 

I also disagree about the hp needed but it is a moot point. The fact that it needs a small amt of hp to propel the car is really all that matters ....

 

I think the reason why FFH can return such great MPG numbers is due to its ability to go into EV at high speeds. I think the driver has to use EV judiciously because running EV at the wrong time can drain the battery really fast, forcing the ICE to charge th battery which leads to poor MPG. So I think it is more of a driving style issue rather than the fact that EV can run at high speeds in FFH.

 

However, it is just my humble opinion and I would love to learn new things from others who are more qualified!

[hermans]

This AM I made an 8.6 mile trip. Cold engine and I put the heat on before I left the garage and turned on the seat warmers. All but 2 miles was on the interstate until my destination. I set the eco-cruise at 57 as soon (55 MPH speed limit) as I got on the interstate and got 48.9. The return trip was 47.2.

 

Edit - The outside temp was 33 degrees, calm morning. We are getting a bunch of snow and crap tomorrow. Shoot that damn groundhog.

Edited March 24, 2013 by hermans

[rjent]

This AM I made an 8.6 mile trip. Cold engine and I put the heat on before I left the garage and turned on the seat warmers. All but 2 miles was on the interstate until my destination. I set the eco-cruise at 57 as soon (55 MPH speed limit) as I got on the interstate and got 48.9. Te return trip was 47.2.

God that is phenomenal!

 

That was going to be my next question. So by your experience, if a person was willing to drive at 60 mpg (eco cruise) would the car show over 40?

 

Our small town here in New Mexico is 70 miles to the next "shopping size" town and 150 miles to Albuquerque. We had to go to the 70 mile away town this weekend to get some power equipment batteries rebuilt. On the way back we set the cruise to 60 and came home (remember we have light traffic and really not getting in nobody's way, although we were passed by about 20 cars or so). Very comfortable and pleasant drive (I am getting old LOL) and we got 28.7 in the Pontiac. Being retired and not needing to get somewhere in a hurry helps.

 

I have high hopes. :)

 

BTW, I pulled one of the Corvettes out this AM to make up for it ..... :shift:

[hybridbear]

I think I understand it but I am not sure if I can explain it. But here is an attempt.

 

When your car is going 40 MPH you have a 4 cylinder engine that is producing more power than is needed. You could go 40 MPH with a 1 cylinder engine. A 1 cylinder engine however would have poor acceleration so it would take a long time to get to 40 MPH, hence, a 4 cylinder engine is needed for the acceleration, not the steady state speed.

 

So, when your 4 cylinder engine is driving the car at 40 MPH, you can put an electrical generator on it and produce electricity with very little additional fuel consumption because the engine is producing more energy than required to go 40 MPH.

 

The critical factor in all this is gear ratio and the engineers seem to have this figured out with an amazing transmission.

 

Exactly. One issue with our cars though is how on the highway at speeds less than 62 they will go into EV mode on level ground and that doesn't appear to work as well as just staying with the ICE running and the HVB nearly full. It makes sense for our cars to do EV mode going downhill at highway speeds, but not on level ground.

 

I'm excited to see how our mileage is this weekend going to Wisconsin because the temps will be around 50...finally!!

[ace8726872]

Exactly. One issue with our cars though is how on the highway at speeds less than 62 they will go into EV mode on level ground and that doesn't appear to work as well as just staying with the ICE running and the HVB nearly full. It makes sense for our cars to do EV mode going downhill at highway speeds, but not on level ground.

 

I'm excited to see how our mileage is this weekend going to Wisconsin because the temps will be around 50...finally!!

 

50F. Brrrrrrrr! That's freezing!

 

The only thing better than owning my 2013 FFH is to own it in warm Southern California! Sorry hybridbear and all the other folks who have to brave the freezing weather.

 

Yeah, yeah, SoCal is nearly bankrupted and it is one of the most expensive areas in the country to live, public school systems is questionable, air is dirty, frequent freeway shootings, blah blah

[Toz]

50F. Brrrrrrrr! That's freezing!

 

The only thing better than owning my 2013 FFH is to own it in warm Southern California! Sorry hybridbear and all the other folks who have to brave the freezing weather.

 

Yeah, yeah, SoCal is nearly bankrupted and it is one of the most expensive areas in the country to live, public school systems is questionable, air is dirty, frequent freeway shootings, blah blah

Ha! thats funny, I lived down in San Diego for 11 years before I moved up to Eastern Wa. I do miss the warm weather, but I live in a house that's paid off, and that would have never happend on my income in SD.