A FFH in my future?

[akirby]

Unfortunately, I didn't know about the holdback when I bought my RAV4 in '07. It certainly wasn't factored into Edmunds' pricing.

 

As for the floor-plan interest, I know about that. I also have read that the best time to buy a car is at the end of the month when that interest is coming due, because the dealers and their salespeople are under pressure to move cars off the lot both to meet the payments and to avoid still more interest payments the next month. My feeling is that flooring charges are part of their risk and represent a buyer's leverage. And when you go up against car salespeople and their sales managers, who negotiate with customers on a daily basis (compared to the customers, who only do it every seven years on average), you need all the leverage you can get. If I can get them to sell me the car I want at a few hundred dollars over invoice, I'll do it. With no disrespect to the car dealers, that's the way the "game" is supposed to be played. And as for the profit on a $4,000 HDTV (and who sells those things for that price any more?), when was the last time you tried to haggle with Best Buy?:redcard: I'm just saying ...

 

Do you agree that the dealer should make a fair profit on each vehicle? For me that means starting the negotiations at dealer invoice and not trying to go after the holdback unless it's a vehicle the dealer has had trouble selling and needs to get rid of it even at a loss. Then again I usually buy on X plan but even without it my dealer gives me a fair price without haggling.

[AptosDriver]

Do you agree that the dealer should make a fair profit on each vehicle? For me that means starting the negotiations at dealer invoice and not trying to go after the holdback unless it's a vehicle the dealer has had trouble selling and needs to get rid of it even at a loss. Then again I usually buy on X plan but even without it my dealer gives me a fair price without haggling.

Sure, the dealer should make a fair profit. But I would be inclined to start at invoice minus holdback, with the expectation that I would actually be "giving" part of that back, and there's the dealer's profit. But before I would begin any of that, I would make sure that I was going through the dealer's fleet manager and not a regular floor salesperson. I used Triple-A's buying service for the RAV4 and did a no-haggle deal with the Toyota dealer's fleet manager. His price was lower than Edmunds' "true market value" -- what most people paid for my car. But as I later learned, it was higher than CR's bottom-line price, essentially by the amount of the holdback.

 

Edmunds true market value for a fully loaded FFH is $32,327. Consumer Reports' "bottom-line price" for the same car, including a deduction for the current $847 holdback, is $31,833, $494 less than Edmunds. But if you add the dealer holdback back into the car's cost, the CR price jumps $32,680 -- higher than the Edmunds price, which may include some of the holdback. Thus, I might use Edmunds' price as a marker for what's "fair" and "take a walk" if the dealer insisted on more. Used in tandem, both services are complementary and can be helpful.

 

On the other hand, CR now has a buying service. You pick the car with options you want and click on "find dealers." I just did that for a fully loaded FFH and came up with three price quotes, ranging from $31,833 to $32,633. The fine print on the Web page says that the dealers "may be willing to match" their respective quotes. The lowest-price dealer, 50 miles from us, may in other words match the CR bottom-line price -- $31,833. The closest dealer to us may close the deal for $31,933, recovering about 12 percent of the holdback. So in this context,with the exception of the highest-bid dealer, it would seem that Edmunds true market value is anywhere from $647 to $747 on the high side, meaning most people have been paying too much for the car. So I would be more inclined to go the CR route, actually. Moreover, armed with this knowledge, I'd probably go first to the actual nearest Ford dealer, about 8 miles from us on the local freeway.

 

As for the X-plan, I'd have to buy 100 shares of Ford stock and hold them for six months before I could get in on that deal. I would want to move on this car before then, I think. I'll have to take another look at the X-plan pricing before I make that decision.

 

By the way, this discussion has been very helpful to me, because without your continued prodding I might not have considered all the factors I just laid out in the immediately previous paragraphs. So, thanks!

:)

[akirby]

Sure, the dealer should make a fair profit. But I would be inclined to start at invoice minus holdback, with the expectation that I would actually be "giving" part of that back, and there's the dealer's profit. But before I would begin any of that, I would make sure that I was going through the dealer's fleet manager and not a regular floor salesperson. I used Triple-A's buying service for the RAV4 and did a no-haggle deal with the Toyota dealer's fleet manager. His price was lower than Edmunds' "true market value" -- what most people paid for my car. But as I later learned, it was higher than CR's bottom-line price, essentially by the amount of the holdback.

 

Edmunds true market value for a fully loaded FFH is $32,327. Consumer Reports' "bottom-line price" for the same car, including a deduction for the current $847 holdback, is $31,833, $494 less than Edmunds. But if you add the dealer holdback back into the car's cost, the CR price jumps $32,680 -- higher than the Edmunds price, which may include some of the holdback. Thus, I might use Edmunds' price as a marker for what's "fair" and "take a walk" if the dealer insisted on more. Used in tandem, both services are complementary and can be helpful.

 

On the other hand, CR now has a buying service. You pick the car with options you want and click on "find dealers." I just did that for a fully loaded FFH and came up with three price quotes, ranging from $31,833 to $32,633. The fine print on the Web page says that the dealers "may be willing to match" their respective quotes. The lowest-price dealer, 50 miles from us, may in other words match the CR bottom-line price -- $31,833. The closest dealer to us may close the deal for $31,933, recovering about 12 percent of the holdback. So in this context,with the exception of the highest-bid dealer, it would seem that Edmunds true market value is anywhere from $647 to $747 on the high side, meaning most people have been paying too much for the car. So I would be more inclined to go the CR route, actually. Moreover, armed with this knowledge, I'd probably go first to the actual nearest Ford dealer, about 8 miles from us on the local freeway.

 

As for the X-plan, I'd have to buy 100 shares of Ford stock and hold them for six months before I could get in on that deal. I would want to move on this car before then, I think. I'll have to take another look at the X-plan pricing before I make that decision.

 

By the way, this discussion has been very helpful to me, because without your continued prodding I might not have considered all the factors I just laid out in the immediately previous paragraphs. So, thanks!

:)

 

Name one other retail industry where the buyer comes in knowing the dealers actual cost and begins negotiating the price from that point.

 

A $2000 piece of furniture is at least 40% profit. Clothing may be even higher. Why shouldn't a dealer make $1000 profit on a $40K vehicle?

[runutzzzzz]

You don't need CR's service - everyone knows that holdback on Fords is 3%. But if you're going to factor in holdback into the dealer's cost then you also need to factor in floor plan (interest on the money the dealer borrows to pay Ford for the vehicle). This can easily exceed the 3% holdback after just a few months.

 

It amazes me how much some people despise the dealer making a few hundred bucks on a car sale. Consider that the profit on a top of the line $4000 HDTV is probably way more than the dealer actually makes on a $40,000 car sale.

 

 

In "most" cases you are wrong on the TV analogy. With competition fierce retailers are lucky to make 5 points on them!

 

I believe the dealer needs to make a profit, heck without profit they wouldn't be around very long! Most dealers will not sell you a car for a loss unless it's a really old unit, last years model or a oddly equipt unit. Dealers make most of their profits off used cars, service and other products.

 

When I shop for a new car, I email all my local dealers with the price I want to pay (usually $250 over "true" cost) and at that point it's take it or leave in. I have never not gotten a deal that I have set my mind on.

 

 

Aptos,

 

If you are looking for "fun" to drive in the Camry then RUN the other way. It is a very boring car. The FFH is faster, "Punchier" and handles a lot better! The FFH handles the mountains better and gets better MPG while doing it. I travel to western MD from NoVA often and in the TCH I would avg 38 MPG round trip, the FFH would avg 42 MPG round trip.

 

One other thing about the FFH, it is a LOT easier to keep it in EV. The TCH was very difficult to do, some times you would have to come to a complete stop for 20 seconds to get it to EV mode. With the FFH you also have a gauge which will tell you have hard you can accelerate before EV kicks off.

Edited December 25, 2010 by runutzzzzz

[AptosDriver]

Aptos,

 

If you are looking for "fun" to drive in the Camry then RUN the other way. It is a very boring car. The FFH is faster, "Punchier" and handles a lot better! The FFH handles the mountains better and gets better MPG while doing it. I travel to western MD from NoVA often and in the TCH I would avg 38 MPG round trip, the FFH would avg 42 MPG round trip.

 

One other thing about the FFH, it is a LOT easier to keep it in EV. The TCH was very difficult to do, some times you would have to come to a complete stop for 20 seconds to get it to EV mode. With the FFH you also have a gauge which will tell you have hard you can accelerate before EV kicks off.

Thanks for that good information. I like this car. I just wish there were more of them on the road. I've decided in any case to wait until I can accumulate the cash I need to self-finance the purchase of a fully loaded FFH, apparently the only way to get leather seats and a sunroof. That will take me most of 2011, by which time the 2012s will be out.

[Zzyzx]

Thanks for that good information. I like this car. I just wish there were more of them on the road. I've decided in any case to wait until I can accumulate the cash I need to self-finance the purchase of a fully loaded FFH, apparently the only way to get leather seats and a sunroof. That will take me most of 2011, by which time the 2012s will be out.

 

 

All the same, thanks for posting on this site. Your questions and others' responses reaffirmed for me that I made the right decision in purchasing a 2011 FFH. :happy feet:

[mirak]

Thanks for that good information. I like this car. I just wish there were more of them on the road. I've decided in any case to wait until I can accumulate the cash I need to self-finance the purchase of a fully loaded FFH, apparently the only way to get leather seats and a sunroof. That will take me most of 2011, by which time the 2012s will be out.

 

In my opinion, you're much better off in the long run going the fully-loaded route with the Nav, even if you have to save up a bit longer. It's a great nav system, plus the touch screen adds a lot of fun interactivity to the car's various features (not just Nav, but also music, climate, phone, etc.) and will help your re-sale value.

 

Not sure when the 2012s will roll out, or what new features we can expect. Maybe its worth waiting for.

[AptosDriver]

All the same, thanks for posting on this site. Your questions and others' responses reaffirmed for me that I made the right decision in purchasing a 2011 FFH. :happy feet:

I'm glad I could be of help. :rolleyes: