Used FFH: Good deal?

[maroonhoo]

I'm dealing with a car dealership for a used FFH. It's fully loaded with BLIS, navi, leather, etc. It has under 10,000 miles and is in great condition. According to KBB, the trade in value is about $22k. The dealership is listing the car on the lot at $28,990, but their internet price is $26,900. Both are overpriced, although the internet price is more reasonable. According to KBB, the retail price for this car used is just over $26,000. I've got them to come down to $25,500, but they won't certify it so that I can buy it as a certified pre-owned unless I pay the full $26,900.

 

Considering the trade in value for the car is about $22k, they're making a pretty big profit here - much bigger than they would get on a new FFH right now, which generally seem to sell just a little over invoice. Should I go for it? I made the mistake of tentatively agreeing to the $25,500, but I just think that's still overpaying by a thousand or two. Is this a good deal?

 

Also, since the car is still under factory warranty and is being sold by a dealership, should I take it to an outside mechanic or another Ford dealership to have it inspected/ checked out before buying?

 

Thanks!

[VonoreTn]

I would definitely drive it and make sure that everything works, including installing your phone on sync and making sure it works (needs to be bluetooth compatible cell phone). I'm not sure that their "certified" is any better than the factory warranty that will come with it, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. At $25K I think that is reasonable. 10K miles is not that hard on a FFH, it's just at it's first oil change, the engine hasn't been run/loaded near as much as in a normal vehicle.

 

Also see if you can get the deal I got on a used Mustang at a Dodge dealer once, three days to return it warranty, no questions asked. After buying it, I took the car to a local Ford Dealer, he ran computer checks on it and found that the title had been branded. That means it had been either stolen, major rework, or bad accident, and no Ford warranty would apply. I returned it the second day and got a full refund.

[akirby]

Just because KBB says trade-in is $22K doesn't mean that's what they paid for it. They might have paid a lot more, they might have paid less. Bottom line is it doesn't matter. If they bought it for $1 should they sell it for $2? You're basically paying full retail price for a used car that's in short supply and high demand. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not a fair price given the market conditions. No different than paying MSRP for a new one. If you don't like the deal then don't take it.

[maroonhoo]

I would definitely drive it and make sure that everything works, including installing your phone on sync and making sure it works (needs to be bluetooth compatible cell phone). I'm not sure that their "certified" is any better than the factory warranty that will come with it, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. At $25K I think that is reasonable. 10K miles is not that hard on a FFH, it's just at it's first oil change, the engine hasn't been run/loaded near as much as in a normal vehicle.

 

Also see if you can get the deal I got on a used Mustang at a Dodge dealer once, three days to return it warranty, no questions asked. After buying it, I took the car to a local Ford Dealer, he ran computer checks on it and found that the title had been branded. That means it had been either stolen, major rework, or bad accident, and no Ford warranty would apply. I returned it the second day and got a full refund.

 

Thanks for the advice. Did Ford charge you to run the computer checks, and if so, how much?

 

I think I'll definitely try to negotiate the three-day return period. That's a great idea. Thank you for sharing.

[maroonhoo]

Just because KBB says trade-in is $22K doesn't mean that's what they paid for it. They might have paid a lot more, they might have paid less. Bottom line is it doesn't matter. If they bought it for $1 should they sell it for $2? You're basically paying full retail price for a used car that's in short supply and high demand. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not a fair price given the market conditions. No different than paying MSRP for a new one. If you don't like the deal then don't take it.

 

It's not a matter of "if you don't like the deal then don't take it." I'm seeking advice from others who have bought this car to find out if FFH owners would find this a good deal. And you're right, it's no different than paying MSRP. The problem I have with that is that no one is -- scratch that -- no one should pay MSRP for a FFH right now. I've seen several dealerships selling them at just above invoice, which is why I'm averse to paying retail. If I wouldn't have to pay retail on a new one, reason follows that I should at least question paying retail on a used model. That said, I understand FFH is in high demand and used ones are rare, which is why I was seeking the advice of others. My question didn't imply that if they bought it for $1 then they should sell it for $2. But I think one should consider the wholesale value of a car. You have a starting point for negotiations (MSRP), and there's a baseline somewhere around invoice (what the dealer paid). Everyone looks at invoice and factors that into the negotiation, so why shouldn't I at least consider the trade in value? Both invoice and trade in value are proxies for what the dealer paid for a vehicle, so looking at trade in value versus MSRP is fair game.

[bbf2530]

It's not a matter of "if you don't like the deal then don't take it." I'm seeking advice from others who have bought this car to find out if FFH owners would find this a good deal. And you're right, it's no different than paying MSRP. The problem I have with that is that no one is -- scratch that -- no one should pay MSRP for a FFH right now. I've seen several dealerships selling them at just above invoice, which is why I'm averse to paying retail. If I wouldn't have to pay retail on a new one, reason follows that I should at least question paying retail on a used model. That said, I understand FFH is in high demand and used ones are rare, which is why I was seeking the advice of others. My question didn't imply that if they bought it for $1 then they should sell it for $2. But I think one should consider the wholesale value of a car. You have a starting point for negotiations (MSRP), and there's a baseline somewhere around invoice (what the dealer paid). Everyone looks at invoice and factors that into the negotiation, so why shouldn't I at least consider the trade in value? Both invoice and trade in value are proxies for what the dealer paid for a vehicle, so looking at trade in value versus MSRP is fair game.

 

Hi maroonhoo. :D Just to straighten out a misconception you have mentioned several times now: "Invoice" price is not what a Dealer pays for a new vehicle. While New Car Dealers would be happy to have people believe that, in reality they pay much less for a new vehicle than the Factory Invoice Price. In fact, quite a bit below "Invoice Price".

 

Without getting into a lot of useless detail, there is a "holdback" amount built into the new vehicle price, and the Dealer is reimbursed that "holdback" cost by Ford when they sell a vehicle. For example, the "holdback" on a Fusion Hybrid would probably be in the $1,200-$1,400 range. In other words, the Dealer would have paid $1,200-$1,400 less than the "Invoice " price for the vehicle..

 

Hope this clears up any pricing confusion.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

[maroonhoo]

Hi maroonhoo. :D Just to straighten out a misconception you have mentioned several times now: "Invoice" price is not what a Dealer pays for a new vehicle. While New Car Dealers would be happy to have people believe that, in reality they pay much less for a new vehicle than the Factory Invoice Price. In fact, quite a bit below "Invoice Price".

 

Without getting into a lot of useless detail, there is a "holdback" amount built into the new vehicle price, and the Dealer is reimbursed that "holdback" cost by Ford when they sell a vehicle. For example, the "holdback" on a Fusion Hybrid would probably be in the $1,200-$1,400 range. In other words, the Dealer would have paid $1,200-$1,400 less than the "Invoice " price for the vehicle..

 

Hope this clears up any pricing confusion.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

Hi bbf2530! Thanks for replying. I know about holdbacks (something I learned from this forum, I believe), which is why I said that the baseline for negotiations is somewhere around invoice, but I didn't know what the holdback on the FFH was around $1200-$1400. That's quite a bit of room they have. Dealers would have you believe that you're robbing them by buying it at $500 above invoice!

 

All in all, I think I'm getting a decent deal. The dealer is now trying to tack on doc fees that were included in the price according to the ad I responded to. Jeez. They're going to try to beat out of me every dollar they can. :finger:

[akirby]

It's not a matter of "if you don't like the deal then don't take it." I'm seeking advice from others who have bought this car to find out if FFH owners would find this a good deal. And you're right, it's no different than paying MSRP. The problem I have with that is that no one is -- scratch that -- no one should pay MSRP for a FFH right now. I've seen several dealerships selling them at just above invoice, which is why I'm averse to paying retail. If I wouldn't have to pay retail on a new one, reason follows that I should at least question paying retail on a used model. That said, I understand FFH is in high demand and used ones are rare, which is why I was seeking the advice of others. My question didn't imply that if they bought it for $1 then they should sell it for $2. But I think one should consider the wholesale value of a car. You have a starting point for negotiations (MSRP), and there's a baseline somewhere around invoice (what the dealer paid). Everyone looks at invoice and factors that into the negotiation, so why shouldn't I at least consider the trade in value? Both invoice and trade in value are proxies for what the dealer paid for a vehicle, so looking at trade in value versus MSRP is fair game.

 

Sorry, but you said yourself that you thought you were overpaying by a couple thousand and I was just trying to point out that

 

1) you don't really know what the dealer actually paid for it. KBB can be off by several thousand dollars - it all depends on local market conditions which kbb doesn't really take into account.

 

2) there is no way to empirically determine a "good price" per se for a used car. It all depends on the local supply and demand and the condition of the car itself.

 

Bottom line here is it sounds like the dealer has given you their final price. I'm sure if you don't take it then someone else will so don't expect the dealer to give you a better price unless it sits on the lot for awhile.

 

The real question is would you rather have this used one for $22,500 or a new one for whatever they're selling for. That's your call.

[maroonhoo]

Sorry, but you said yourself that you thought you were overpaying by a couple thousand and I was just trying to point out that

 

1) you don't really know what the dealer actually paid for it. KBB can be off by several thousand dollars - it all depends on local market conditions which kbb doesn't really take into account.

 

2) there is no way to empirically determine a "good price" per se for a used car. It all depends on the local supply and demand and the condition of the car itself.

 

Bottom line here is it sounds like the dealer has given you their final price. I'm sure if you don't take it then someone else will so don't expect the dealer to give you a better price unless it sits on the lot for awhile.

 

The real question is would you rather have this used one for $22,500 or a new one for whatever they're selling for. That's your call.

 

True, akirby. But there's nothing like feeling like you've been taken for a ride. :P

 

I agree there's no way to empirically determine a good price for a used car, so asking on this forum is the best way for me to determine if the sale price is a fair one. It sounds like you, and the others that have replied, think this is a decent if not good price, and I appreciate you all weighing in.

[akirby]

Normally you could comparison shop the same used vehicle at different places, but this is probably the only one out there so all you can do is compare it to a new one and decide whether it's worth the discount or not.

[seamusbleu]

I'm dealing with a car dealership for a used FFH. It's fully loaded with BLIS, navi, leather, etc. It has under 10,000 miles and is in great condition. According to KBB, the trade in value is about $22k. The dealership is listing the car on the lot at $28,990, but their internet price is $26,900. Both are overpriced, although the internet price is more reasonable. According to KBB, the retail price for this car used is just over $26,000. I've got them to come down to $25,500, but they won't certify it so that I can buy it as a certified pre-owned unless I pay the full $26,900.

...

What you are describing is a FFH with the 502A package. I think I got a good price on one just recently at around $29K (plus tax and license). Based on that, they are asking you to give up roughly 2/3 year of ownership and mileage for around $2K. That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. If you are considering spending that much money, I'd say buy a new one.

 

Now considering the $25.5K price, I don't know what a "certified pre-owned" designation offers over and above what the full factory warranty that is still in affect provides. Still, based on that price giving you a roughly $3500-$4000 savings, that still doesn't seem compelling to me.

 

Personally, (with admittedly very little time to think about it) I'd probably need it around $24K before I'd go for it.

 

My $0.02.

[maroonhoo]

What you are describing is a FFH with the 502A package. I think I got a good price on one just recently at around $29K (plus tax and license). Based on that, they are asking you to give up roughly 2/3 year of ownership and mileage for around $2K. That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. If you are considering spending that much money, I'd say buy a new one.

 

Now considering the $25.5K price, I don't know what a "certified pre-owned" designation offers over and above what the full factory warranty that is still in affect provides. Still, based on that price giving you a roughly $3500-$4000 savings, that still doesn't seem compelling to me.

 

Personally, (with admittedly very little time to think about it) I'd probably need it around $24K before I'd go for it.

 

My $0.02.

 

If only I could find one used for $24,000 with the 502A package. [sigh]

[acdii]

Take KBB for what its worth, a guide line. KBB is for consumers, dealers don't use KBB, they use Black Book. There is a huge pricing difference between the two. KBB does not take into account availability. The fact you found a used Hybrid is rare. A car like that the dealer can ask what he wants, and get it. The 2009 Camry Hybrid I trade in, I got 23K for it, they sold it for 26K, I paid 28,500 for it. It had 34,000 miles on it too. With the numbers you show, 25K is a good deal on this car. Around here, if you can get a FFH for under sticker you are doing well, they aren't dealing on them like the other models.

 

Do this, go to a Ford dealer and price out a new one, see what kind of deal you can get, but if you really want this car, don't wait too long as someone will snap it up. Shoot I wish I could have found a used one when I was looking, but I am quite happy with my Sport.

[Grey]

In your financial equation, don't forget the $850 tax credit on a new one.

 

Ask the service advisor at the dealership to run an OASIS report on the VIN of the car you are considering and request the warranty history (Just to see if it had big problems.)

[fsb99]

In your financial equation, don't forget the $850 tax credit on a new one.

 

Ask the service advisor at the dealership to run an OASIS report on the VIN of the car you are considering and request the warranty history (Just to see if it had big problems.)

 

Minor point but maybe there are some differences in maintenance also. For example, due to regenerative braking, you may save some $$ by not having to change your brake pads/turn rotors as often as a non-hybrid.

 

Also, hybrids may qualify for smog check exemptions.