Yes .......more issues with my FFH

[lolder]

Well you can duplicate the problems pretty well. I notice the HVB SOC is at the top. That's not normal, it should be near the middle or lower part of the gauge except for cold weather starts and downhill braking or reconditioning events. The average mpg never budges from zero. The ICE power seldom showed. I expect Ford is trying to identify the cause rather than shotgun replace most of the computers. They should be doing that, not you. They should find you a FFH loaner or other vehicle acceptable to you. This car is not close to functioning normally. Individual things like no regen braking with high HVB SOC are normal but why is the SOC high? Zero avg. mpg. is never normal. EV power at a stop is not normal, etc. Good luck.

[akirby]

And you would deal with this same situation differently? But we'll never know because.....as I once again may I point out.........you don't even own a Hybrid Fusion.

 

This has nothing to do with owning a Hybrid. The same thing could happen to any vehicle. I wouldn't DO anything differently - I just wouldn't write lengthy rant after lengthy rant about it using words like "Russian Roulette" and "loaded gun" while continuing to drive the car.

 

I've made my point and you're obviously not going to change, so I'll just ignore you from here out as you requested. Maybe when this is all over you can calm down and realize that maybe you over-reacted just a bit. Or not. Whatever.

[BAT BEAR]

Well you can duplicate the problems pretty well. I notice the HVB SOC is at the top. That's not normal, it should be near the middle or lower part of the gauge except for cold weather starts and downhill braking or reconditioning events. The average mpg never budges from zero. The ICE power seldom showed. I expect Ford is trying to identify the cause rather than shotgun replace most of the computers. They should be doing that, not you. They should find you a FFH loaner or other vehicle acceptable to you. This car is not close to functioning normally. Individual things like no regen braking with high HVB SOC are normal but why is the SOC high? Zero avg. mpg. is never normal. EV power at a stop is not normal, etc. Good luck.

 

The computers need to be replaced in this car. If I were the dealer and saw this video, I would swap out the computers, boards, memory, reload OS, etc. It's a time consuming mess. With new technology, these things are bound to happen, that is just the nature of the beast. I build computers as part of my job and I see glitches happen, esp on the higher end, newer stuff.

 

Best off is to have this car shipped to the lab in Michigan for diagnostics.

[rpreuss]

Well you can duplicate the problems pretty well. I notice the HVB SOC is at the top. That's not normal, it should be near the middle or lower part of the gauge except for cold weather starts and downhill braking or reconditioning events. The average mpg never budges from zero. The ICE power seldom showed. I expect Ford is trying to identify the cause rather than shotgun replace most of the computers. They should be doing that, not you. They should find you a FFH loaner or other vehicle acceptable to you. This car is not close to functioning normally. Individual things like no regen braking with high HVB SOC are normal but why is the SOC high? Zero avg. mpg. is never normal. EV power at a stop is not normal, etc. Good luck.

 

Oldschool,

 

I just watched both of your videos. I own a FFH and can relate to one thing that is generally common to all the problems you report. Your video display is lagging quite obviously from what you are saying in the audio.

 

Being a software engineer, I would say something is drastically wrong with the program or computer running it.

 

One thing I noticed on another thread is that you had the braking firmware update done a couple of weeks ago. Did your problems start after that or before?

 

When the car is "running ok" is the display lagging?

 

One very obvious display of the lagging is how the transmission display is way behind your actual selection. Displaying "P" while you are in gear, etc. In fact, at one point it is actually playing "catch-up" as it follows what you did slightly earlier (based on your narration).

 

I am assuming that the you-tube playback is, in fact, what your actual video shows, and is not suffering from "audo lag" where the sound track is not in sync with the video.

 

Anyway, I don't think your problem is with the computer and the software. Unless some sensor somewhere is slamming the CPU with false hits and causing it to service the interrupts. But, I am just a computer engineer and am purely guessing.

 

I hope you get this resolved ASAP. The Ford people should look closely at your videos and not need some codes to read out.

 

Good luck

[lordyourjosh]

Thanks for uploading the videos, and I'm still sorry you're having these problems.

 

One thing I want to toss in - I wouldn't slam the engineers of the FFH too much. If there were problems endemic to the FFH, we would have a lot of people on this forum complaining, you would read bad reviews in the long-term test articles in magazines, etc. This is also likely why they don't have an instant fix for you. First off, I'm not an engineer (I'm a IT guy, though) but from their standpoint "the system works fine as designed". That is pretty accurate since problems are few and far between on these cars. Trust me on that, because internet forums have a way of magnifying problems (people are more prone to come online and complain all over the place if there is a problem, so one person's issue can look like 100). Now they have to try to figure out WHERE the problem is you're having and what is causing it. Bad wiring? A bad sensor? Bad circuitry? Did it happen in assembly or was it "bad" from the time the part was supplied to Ford? Is the hardware good but somehow the software loaded with an error? I'm certain they want the answer as bad as you do.

 

I'm just curious if you've called the Ford Customer Service line listed in the warranty book. You could also tell the dealer you want to talk to the person in charge of service issues for your region. That might help you out, though I'd be careful with lines like "remember the Pinto" - I think you'll catch more flies with honey in this case.

 

Good luck!

[rpreuss]

This has nothing to do with owning a Hybrid. The same thing could happen to any vehicle.

 

Regarding Oldschool's problems, you could not be further from the truth.

[Zacher]

OldSchool,

 

That second video was a good one. It almost seems like (as others have mentioned) the Dash display is behind or Laggy. That one point where it was in Park for a long time nearly co-incided with the amount of time you sat in Park only minutes before. I wonder if you where to try something like this with a stop watch:

 

Start the Car, sit for 30 seconds.

Position the car for a Full Acceleration (ie back out of driveway find stretch of road). Wait 1 minute and let the gauges settle.

Perform a full Acceleration for 30 seconds, slowly stop the car using regen brakes, and pull over and put in Park. Now sit and watch your gauges, see if they show the sudden power acceleration, followed by the stopping (regen brake, charging arrow up) and then stop, and the gear shifter shifts from D to Park.

 

This obviously won't diagnose anything but might begin to give a clearer idea for the Ford people looking at your car.

 

Zacher

[sullied]

Good grief! How are they supposed to fix a problem that they can't find - without some help? This is no different than software troubleshooting. If there are no codes or errors to be found, then you only have 2 choices. Try to identify a potential root cause given the description of the symptoms (which isn't always easy) or put in traps to gather more data when it does happen. Sounds like they're doing everything they can to try to find and fix the problem.

 

Some people think you should just be able to wave a magic wand and fix anything in 5 minutes, but that's not usually the case. I think you're overreacting and need to calm down a bit.

There's other way of troubleshooting that don't put innocent people at risk. They can throw parts at it at their own expense to figure out which one was faulty and then troubleshoot that faulty part themselves on a closed track or something. There's no reason to put a known malfunctioning car on the road. Period.

[akirby]

Regarding Oldschool's problems, you could not be further from the truth.

 

Please explain. Non hybrids have computer problems with similar symptoms including the engine dying. How is this so different?

[oldschool1962]

Oldschool,

 

I just watched both of your videos. I own a FFH and can relate to one thing that is generally common to all the problems you report. Your video display is lagging quite obviously from what you are saying in the audio.

 

Being a software engineer, I would say something is drastically wrong with the program or computer running it.

 

One thing I noticed on another thread is that you had the braking firmware update done a couple of weeks ago. Did your problems start after that or before?

 

When the car is "running ok" is the display lagging?

 

One very obvious display of the lagging is how the transmission display is way behind your actual selection. Displaying "P" while you are in gear, etc. In fact, at one point it is actually playing "catch-up" as it follows what you did slightly earlier (based on your narration).

 

I am assuming that the you-tube playback is, in fact, what your actual video shows, and is not suffering from "audo lag" where the sound track is not in sync with the video.

 

Anyway, I don't think your problem is with the computer and the software. Unless some sensor somewhere is slamming the CPU with false hits and causing it to service the interrupts. But, I am just a computer engineer and am purely guessing.

 

I hope you get this resolved ASAP. The Ford people should look closely at your videos and not need some codes to read out.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

Thanks for that....I've been screaming the computer is screwed up since day two of ownoing the car. But I'm not a programmer so.........

 

I see what you mean about the lagging but as that goes.......that was something that I think was totally coincidental. There were things happening on saturday like the IC, Bliss, Cross traffic, airbags, cruise all going haywire as well as functions that were happening simultaneously that would not under any circumstances happen that way. Like the Blue Arrows lighted at the same times as the ICE power bar at full. The Bliss was the first to go during that incident at 10 minutes into the drive and everything else went about 30minutes into the drive.....+ or -

 

The Regen issues have been happening for sometime now. The dealer first noted that the brake system went to hydraulic only during a service visit because I could tell the brakes were all hydraulic and no regen. I documented this in a post and also explained that it happened when the Regen Icon failed to appear, battery levels were 1/2 or below + or - and the car was adequately warmed up as in driving for more that an hour or so. They did the firmware update after 2 additional visits and things got better for a a short time....the rest of the day. I also posted what was about 6 cycles of the ignition being turned on and off before it returned to it's prior state. I have to say that I always thought that was software as that's how it was explained.....learned something new.

 

I went into the dealer today and spoke to the Tech that worked on it. He had the car an put close 200 miles on it. I asked him some specific and he confirmed what I asked. The brake pedal was crisp and flawless, the brakes worked well and all of the systems seemed to function as they were designed. He also stated that prior to taking the benchmark snap shot with the BB, he allowed the entire system to reset itself. This was done through the modules or when he allowed the battery to be disconnected what I think he said was over night? Anyhow from what I can gather, after I reached what I think was 6 key cycles.....the car started to lose it's driveability.

 

I took two snap shots of the IC. I was actually looking at something else and it caught my eye. t is almost the same scenario I had when I first bought the car. Two small and seemingly insignificant glitches in the dash. But then I noticed a change in the pedal for the brakes. It was no longer crisp and responsive but soft and sluggish.

 

As the car was designed.....it handles great. I do like to have some fun with ramps and merging even though it is a hybrid. And with that in mind.....the hybrid thing.........the get up in go when you are already moving is pretty good so I did. This time the same thing happened as Saturday when I mentioned the acceleration. I guess the best way to describe it this time was it flattened out. Sort of like an old HP V-8 that didn't have the right carbeuration.

 

There is a ton more info but in the interest of trying to keep things below a Tolstoyian novel I'll stop there.

 

Because the Dealer could not email the video I gave them........ and at Tazzboo's suggestion....... I burned a DVD of the video and gave it to the Service Manager. He's going to FedEx it to Ford today or at least hope he doesn't forget.

 

I did want to address one last comment to Akirby. I just don't want to get into the petty nitpicking of what tone I should or should not use when submitting posts here.

 

With that said........ Yes any vehicle can stall yet there is one huge difference between a hybrid....at least what I've seen in the Prius and FFH since we own one of each......... and any other non-hybrid vehicle regarding it stalling out. That is you can put your car in neutral and try to start it. In a Hybrid, you need to be stopped and in park (the FFH and topped with your foot on the brake with the Prius). It is a design feature because there is no clutch or torgue converter system. So starting would just spin the CVT like starting an old 4spd in 4th gear.

 

Maybe I misunderstood some things I read but theoretically the traction motor is designed to take over when the system senses the ICE is not running like when you run out of gas. Normall it tunrs off the ICE at stoplights, while coasting, in EV mode..........But........ if you are over the threshold speed for the Traction motor 47mph....... it will not engage.

Also what would happen if you had to abruptly reduce speed from I don't know....what are they doing on the Perimeter these days......80?.......... to 45 just to see if you do have what would be limited power anyhow with the traction motor. That'd make a real mess if you were on the Top End around the 285/85 interchange. Regardless of the road....unless it's an isolated road.....the consequences are all relative should there be heavy traffic. The similairties between the FFH and the FF end with the body styling and maybe a couple other interior panels or items.

 

I've gotta take a break......my brain is about to overload with all the crap that is happening. I do apprecieate the feedback and support in solving the issue.

 

I think someone said don't be too hard on the Engineers and I did dial back a couple of my comments above in another post. Sarchasm is a great thing unless you're really peeved.

 

I'll provide some info after I take the car in to have the BB downloaded and reprogrammed or.....should something major happen......Other than that I've addressed all I can in my posts to date....unfrotunately they are scattered throughout a couple other topics.

 

I'll see ya'll later.

Edited February 25, 2010 by oldschool1962

[Blue Oval]

I wrote here awhile back when you first reported your complaint and I gave my non-engineering opinion that your problems could be due to a faulty computer module. Since then I've continued to read along only to learn Ford service techs have been busy testing and ruling out many possibilities and yet your car is still plagued with what some have called gremlins and I have called demons.

 

First of all I have to suggest you ignore certain individuals, in particular the non-hybrid guy with the old Fusion who seems to have reading comprehension issues. Upon investing thirty grand on a problem-plagued new car, you have every right to be upset and your writing is (hopefully) therapeutic so don't change your style. Its good to vent. Secondly, I watched your videos and the second one especially illustrates your contention, proving your car is seriously ill. Thirdly, I agree with you and don't understand why Ford hasn't simply thrown the towel in by now and replaced your FFH permanently with a brand new one! Let them take your old one back to Michigan or Hermosillo or wherever they want to and find out what went wrong, fix it and then give it to a Ford executive to drive for a year or two. It would be a great public relations/good will gesture. The dealership's service techs and you could all go out together and celebrate with a nice meal. A win-win for everyone! Another happy ending...oh wait, I think I was dreaming again! Well, some dreams do come true...don't they?

 

PS: regarding your 2nd video, I was glad to hear the "70's on 7" Sirius channel playing in the background...I enjoy that channel, too.

 

Good Luck with your car. One way or another, I hope all of your problems are soon resolved.

[rpreuss]

Please explain. Non hybrids have computer problems with similar symptoms including the engine dying. How is this so different?

 

Hi Akirby,

 

I guess I should have explained my response then.....

 

You are absolutely correct, non hybrids certainly do have computer problems that include the engine dying. I was referring to what he had shown in his videos. It looked like the computer program was causing a tremendous lag between what was displaying on the gauges and what was going on. Like a PC that takes way too long to do what should run pretty fast.

 

My statement was based on the fact that everything in the Hybrid is fully controlled by the computer. The gauge display, the starting and stopping of the engine (With attention to the crankshaft position for a quick re-start) as often as every 10 seconds or so, the regenerative braking, the transitions from regen to hydraulic braking, the transitions from EV to ICE, adjusting the high voltage levels to the two MG's for power, the complex algorithms to handle the eCVT (Which controls the energy flow of the ICE and two Motor/Generators). And lots more? I'm no expert. This is just what I have picked up on the forums and my own experience with my FFH.

 

In a standard ICE vehicle (non hybrid) basically, all the computer is doing is controlling the fuel air mix of the engine based on the various sensors. I realize there is more, but nothing like controlling the Hybrid system to maximize fuel economy.

 

That's all I meant. Looking at Oldschool's videos, it looks like the computer is laging way behind in displaying what it is doing with all it's functions.

 

So all I was saying was that to say his problems are no different than any normal vehicle is a stretch. I did not mean to be insulting. I was just trying to point out that the computer and related software in the Hybrid is far, far more complex and "busy" than a standard Internal Combustion Engine system. Unfortunately, sometime in this media, we are too short and curt in our responses.

 

No Offense Meant. :beerchug:

[akirby]

Hi Akirby,

 

I guess I should have explained my response then.....

 

You are absolutely correct, non hybrids certainly do have computer problems that include the engine dying. I was referring to what he had shown in his videos. It looked like the computer program was causing a tremendous lag between what was displaying on the gauges and what was going on. Like a PC that takes way too long to do what should run pretty fast.

 

My statement was based on the fact that everything in the Hybrid is fully controlled by the computer. The gauge display, the starting and stopping of the engine (With attention to the crankshaft position for a quick re-start) as often as every 10 seconds or so, the regenerative braking, the transitions from regen to hydraulic braking, the transitions from EV to ICE, adjusting the high voltage levels to the two MG's for power, the complex algorithms to handle the eCVT (Which controls the energy flow of the ICE and two Motor/Generators). And lots more? I'm no expert. This is just what I have picked up on the forums and my own experience with my FFH.

 

In a standard ICE vehicle (non hybrid) basically, all the computer is doing is controlling the fuel air mix of the engine based on the various sensors. I realize there is more, but nothing like controlling the Hybrid system to maximize fuel economy.

 

That's all I meant. Looking at Oldschool's videos, it looks like the computer is laging way behind in displaying what it is doing with all it's functions.

 

So all I was saying was that to say his problems are no different than any normal vehicle is a stretch. I did not mean to be insulting. I was just trying to point out that the computer and related software in the Hybrid is far, far more complex and "busy" than a standard Internal Combustion Engine system. Unfortunately, sometime in this media, we are too short and curt in our responses.

 

No Offense Meant. :beerchug:

 

I understand all that although the computer in non-hybrids now controls the timing, the throttle, the fuel injection, the transmission, the gauges and almost everything else including starting the engine for you. But I understand your point and yes, the symptoms displayed are probably unique to the hybrid.

 

However - my point was only in reference to the danger aspect (Russian Roulette, loaded gun, endangering innocent bystanders, etc.) of having the engine die on the highway. Lots of vehicles lose power at highway speeds for a variety of reasons and are unable to be restarted (bad alternator e.g.).

 

I apologize for overreacting. I guess I have a pet peeve about folks ranting and raving and exaggerating problems. But if that makes the OP feel better then I'll just ignore it.

 

I agree this is a serious problem that needs to be fixed and I'm glad Ford is working on it. I'll just leave it at that.

[oldschool1962]

I understand all that although the computer in non-hybrids now controls the timing, the throttle, the fuel injection, the transmission, the gauges and almost everything else including starting the engine for you. But I understand your point and yes, the symptoms displayed are probably unique to the hybrid. However - my point was only in reference to the danger aspect (Russian Roulette, loaded gun, endangering innocent bystanders, etc.) of having the engine die on the highway. Lots of vehicles lose power at highway speeds for a variety of reasons and are unable to be restarted (bad alternator e.g.). I apologize for overreacting. I guess I have a pet peeve about folks ranting and raving and exaggerating problems. But if that makes the OP feel better then I'll just ignore it. I agree this is a serious problem that needs to be fixed and I'm glad Ford is working on it. I'll just leave it at that.

Amazing.......simply amazing. I'd like to say thank you for the distraction from my exaggerated issues. Wish I could ROTF so I could LMFAO guess the smilies will have to do it for me. Edited February 26, 2010 by oldschool1962

[akirby]

Amazing.......simply amazing. I'd like to say thank you for the distraction from my exaggerated issues. Wish I could ROTF so I could LMFAO guess the smilies will have to do it for me.

 

You really don't know how to accept an apology, do you? Amazing, simply amazing.

[oldschool1962]

You really don't know how to accept an apology, do you? Amazing, simply amazing.

 

I didn't realize you were apologizing directly to me and didn't think I needed one mainly because it didn't register that high with me Except maybe for the Drama Queen reference not once but twice. So you understand.....As an Executive Chef that is something I have never allowed anyone to call me also having lived in and around and worked in the Restaurant industry of Atlanta area for many, many years.........when it was used it was never a term of endearment or sarcasm.

 

But on the lighter side and and quite frankly it was a nice distraction from the issues I am having with the vehicle. It's all opinions and perceptions here............. So to put this to an end I accept any apology you made and also apologze myself.

[DTJJK96]

Well, I've been doing a lot of reading about oldschool1962 problems with his vehicle and thought maybe it was just an isolated case until my wife said last night that she had a display problem with her vehicle just yesterday. I am wondering if it is the start of something similar to oldschool1962's problems.

She has had no problems until this occured. What she said happened was she was in a parking lot and wanted to get the attention of another couple she wanted to talk to so she honked the horn. She then got out of the car to talk to them and when she got back in the car the display had changed and the average MPG's had gone to zero. She reset the display to what she had set it at before and came home. She has an appointment next week to get the brake situation taken care of and will mention it at that time to the service people. I have been reading this forum and have read of others having this glitch happen to them.

My question is, is there a sevice bulletin that anyone knows about which my wife should mention to the sevice people when she brings her vehicle in next week?

 

Thanks, in advance for any replies.

Edited February 27, 2010 by DTJJK96

[oldschool1962]

Would have provided this post last night but in the middle of it our oven caught fire while in Self-clean. Seems the stones that were in it had soaked up some grease and...............not a great evening at all.

 

 

Yesterday afternoon I inadvertently hit the button for the black box and caused it to take a snap-shot. What a waste it was. Basically the whole thing was a waste of time but the Dealership said they eliminated the IC from the equation.

 

They reprogrammed the BB to look for about a dozen other things from throttle pressure to brake pedal pressure. The vehicle has been acting strange since I hooked it up. By strange I mean operating like it never has before. Keep in mind that I take the same routes at almost the exact same time everyday Monday thru Friday with added trips on M,W and F. During our ride to swim practice I was able to travel almost 2 miles with the vehicle staying in EV mode. At least that was what everything showed me and I never heard the ICE start up. There was a good amount of braking for the battery regen and it also accepted a charge quite well.......meaning that normally the battery is slow to recover but yesterday everything happened unbelievably well. Also..... first time ever....... I was able to accelerate to 30mph in full EV mode from the same stop light that I get stuck at 3 times a week.

 

At first a thought lashed that .....nahhhh....couldn't be the black box and what it was programmed to have go thru it.......could it? I understood that the BB was just a recorder and also called back to see just out of curiosity if......it would alter the vehicle. The Service manager confirmed it was just a recorder. But to all you computer guru's out there......

 

Could the BB actually take something and maybe take out something that was weird? I know it acts like a return loop so.......would it "straighten our" the signal of a bad module or modules?

 

I know I am not nutz but if the vehicle drove the way it did yesterday......I would not have issue with it. I did take a snap shot of when things were working as such and we'll see.

 

This morning I needed to go get a ton of air freshener candles from Lowe's. The vehicle performed almost the same except less EV mode due to warm up. I also noticed that every time I restarted the car....the Regen icon.....would not come on until four depressions of the brake pedal. Yesterday it was instantaneous not matter what. I discussed this in other topics and all of the attributes of how the car operated were similar to what was mentioned there. It's just that it was odd that it was exactly 4 brake pedal depressions every time today.

 

I did another snap shot because things started to fall off and just didn't seem the way they were yesterday while on the same roads. Have two snaps left.

 

Something else I noticed was that the vehicle acted this way right after the brake reprogram for about the same amount of time and inconsistency.

 

Maybe there's actually a pattern building here.

Edited February 27, 2010 by oldschool1962

[chriscard25]

Just curious, have they replaced the 12 volt battery?

[VonoreTn]

I was thinking these problems had nothing to do with my FFH, until my Wife told me today that as she pulled out of the garage, all the mpg data re-zeroed. That's the first time that has happened in the 6 months we have owned the vehicle, with ~11,000 miles on it.

[FtLewis2002]

You really don't know how to accept an apology, do you? Amazing, simply amazing.

 

There seems to be quite a few people who have their panties in a bunch around here. I don't get it.

[seamusbleu]

This morning I needed to go get a ton of air freshener candles from Lowe's.

Too much information.

[oldschool1962]

Too much information.

 

With the week we had and after the fire in the other night.........If I don't interject a bit of outside info........ I think I'm gonna go.....for lack of a better description....postal on someone or something.

 

If you missed it........... the air fresheners were to cover up the burnt smell that permeated the house. Thyen again you probably didn't and my funny bone was removed due to................

 

To stay on topic nothing to report today. Cleaned up more of the mess and didn't drive the car much so........If I don't drive the car then there's nothing wrong with it. Funny how that works. Just taking lessons from the Ford folks with the codes.

[oldschool1962]

Oh yeah....forgot to mention that yes....they did replace the 12v battery last week on Tuesday. The IC glithced again shortly there after. I think I mentioned it in a post above but it's all starting to run together at this point.

[BAT BEAR]

Just curious, what are the oven stones for? Are they there to retain heat and allow for more even cooking?