Yes .......more issues with my FFH

[oldschool1962]

If things get too hairy, remind them of how Ford handled the Pinto back in the 70s.

 

Funny you should mention that sullied............That was one of the examples I gave of how manufacturers have just buried their heads in the sand all the while saying......... "there's nothing wrong.....Pinto's don't blow-up". I think that's why we have to consumer watch groups we now have....unfortunately......they're becoming like the rest..........all about the money. It's all big business now so......

 

Didn't the Mustang have issues with the accelerator pedal in just the last few years too....and all Ford did was deny the issue like Toyota just did.

 

Here's a new take on an old saying........ You can fool some of the people some of the time...... but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. I won't be fooled again.

 

 

I just don't buy into what anyone in Big Business dishes out anymore.......

Edited February 23, 2010 by oldschool1962

[oldschool1962]

Even though we seem to have the Dealership helping us get the situation resolved or at least looked at, and even though they are diligently pursuing answers from Ford Engineers, I expect there will come a time that they will have to just throw their hands in the air since they can't proceed with repairs because they don't know what to do or they can't get authorization from Ford so they are reimbursed. I've come to this conclusion from the fact that the system has yet to present a code for any of the issues.

 

I understand that yesterday.....the dealership sent off the video we took over the weekend of the Instrument cluster. I also don't expect anything to come of that other than the Engineers saying that's normal too and without a code........there's nothing wrong. We are still working on getting those posted here so everyone can see.

 

I have filed a complaint with the NHTSA, BBB and have spoken to Lemon Lawyers. We are submitting paperwork to them as we speak.

 

I can't wonder how long things will take. I also believe that if they....all these engineers and Hybrid Guru's that are supposed involved with things...... can't figure things out with-in a couple days time.....they are no better than any of us at knowing the systems.....and they designed the flucking thing. Most troubling thing is I've been told that Ford has had this program for 16 years now and appears to me they know little or nothing about things......that's some learning curve I'd say. Imagine going thru 16 years of life and still not know how to................tie your shoe's. I picture the whole group sitting on a store porch somewhere up around north woods Georgia with a frickin banjo..............

 

If that sounds harsh it's because I'm not trying to score points with these........"enjuneers". They aren't on my side to begin with so I figure.............if they aren't with me......their against me.

Edited February 24, 2010 by oldschool1962

[oldschool1962]

Well....that was a quick response from Ford....on the BBB filing that is.

 

I just got off the phone with some rep from Ford about my vehicle. Not a Dealership person but someone from Ford. I guess they are installing a "Black Box" that I have to operate. I get to push a button when something goes wrong or acts up. So this means I have to drive the vehicle with all of the things that are going on and remember to push a button .......if the vehicle does any of the issues that we are having. So I'm supposed to remember to push this button if the POS happens to stall while driving let's say on the interstate. Right...........

 

I guess...and to quote the Ford rep or as best as I can remember what he said because my ear drums kinda went numb from the blood pressure spike when he told me ......we have to exhaust all options before moving forward. The vehicle has produced no code so there's nothing wrong with it. So this means that putting myself and or my family in danger of some catastrophic incident is part of exhausting all options. I want to be reasonable but that's far over the line of me being reasonable.

 

I'm still waiting for a call from the Dealership and I'll have a candid discussion with them as well but I need ya'll to sever as witness here..........

 

I swear by all that I am.........if any harm should come to me, my family or an innocent by-stander while "exhausting all options" driving this vehicle, Ford Motor Company is going to wish they never sold me a vehicle.

 

Any good Attorneys out here? PM me.

[akirby]

Good grief! How are they supposed to fix a problem that they can't find - without some help? This is no different than software troubleshooting. If there are no codes or errors to be found, then you only have 2 choices. Try to identify a potential root cause given the description of the symptoms (which isn't always easy) or put in traps to gather more data when it does happen. Sounds like they're doing everything they can to try to find and fix the problem.

 

Some people think you should just be able to wave a magic wand and fix anything in 5 minutes, but that's not usually the case. I think you're overreacting and need to calm down a bit.

[EntropyAvatar]

I don't understand how the vehicle could be having so many problems and not generate a code. Is it possible that some of the processors get into a bad error state and clear the codes when they reset? Or when it's malfunctioning the data connections are so messed up it can't properly record an error?

 

You'd really think that such obvious problems would leave error codes all over the place.

Edited February 24, 2010 by EntropyAvatar

[FFHdriver]

I don't understand how the vehicle could be having so many problems and not generate a code. Is it possible that some of the processors get into a bad error state and clear the codes when they reset? Or when it's malfunctioning the data connections are so messed up it can't properly record an error?

 

You'd really think that such obvious problems would leave error codes all over the place.

I had a blackbox installed on a Buick I owned to find a reason for a error message. I had to "push a button" to get it to record. I did and it did and problem was solved. If you can't push a button while driving, or have someone push it for you, you really have problems.

Edited February 24, 2010 by FFHdriver

[lordyourjosh]

Have you had an opportunity to post the video you took of the incident dashboard incident?

[EntropyAvatar]

I had a blackbox installed on a Buick I owned to find a reason for a error message. I had to "push a button" to get it to record. I did and it did and problem was solved. If you can't push a button while driving, or have someone push it for you, you really have problems.

 

I think that the black box is probably the best option at this point to get to the root of the problem. I'm just surprised (read: dumbfounded) that the existing error-reporting system says nothing is wrong.

Edited February 24, 2010 by EntropyAvatar

[akirby]

I think that the black box is probably the best option at this point to get to the root of the problem. I'm just surprised (read: dumbfounded) that the existing error-reporting system says nothing is wrong.

 

The PCM can only set codes when it detects something operating outside of normal parameters. There are a lot of malfunctions that can occur that don't appear to the PCM as a fault.

 

As an analogy - consider a display on a PC that is faulty. The display could be blinking on and off but the operating system doesn't know there is a problem so it won't issue an error message. These cars use sophisticated computer modules and bus communications. It's not like 20 years ago when there was just a PCM and a dozen or so sensors.

[akirby]

And just to add - the lack of error codes doesn't mean that everything is ok. Just like if you go to the doctor and they take your temperature, blood pressure, etc. and they're all normal it doesn't mean you're not sick.

[oldschool1962]

Good grief! How are they supposed to fix a problem that they can't find - without some help? This is no different than software troubleshooting. If there are no codes or errors to be found, then you only have 2 choices. Try to identify a potential root cause given the description of the symptoms (which isn't always easy) or put in traps to gather more data when it does happen. Sounds like they're doing everything they can to try to find and fix the problem.

 

Some people think you should just be able to wave a magic wand and fix anything in 5 minutes, but that's not usually the case. I think you're overreacting and need to calm down a bit.

 

Hmmm..........nevermind. I think I'll take the high road here. But before I do..................from my perspective.............and knowing thet perspective is 100% reality.........I really don't think I'm over reacting. But why does it bother you that I do........you don't have skin in this game where as I do.

[oldschool1962]

I had a blackbox installed on a Buick I owned to find a reason for a error message. I had to "push a button" to get it to record. I did and it did and problem was solved. If you can't push a button while driving, or have someone push it for you, you really have problems.

 

Again the high road but ......... before I do..........Can you guarantee that while trying to find or push the button if the car were to stall while I'm on

I-95.....a road that is traveled almost daily............I won't cause or be the cause of a wreck? With a car that is functiong properly it's like dodge ball out there on a good day and good day's don't happen often om I-95. I'm glad that no matter what....any situation you should happen to be thrown into behind the wheel.....you're capable of preventing any sort of mishap.

 

Again from my seat there is the potential for a huge issue....given the circumstances i experience on a daily basis.

Edited February 24, 2010 by oldschool1962

[Oman]

Ok, so they want you to drive around in a car that you feel is unsafe, and that I think most people would agree with that. I don't actually want this to happen since I love my FFH, but if I were in your shoes I would be calling channel 9 news for a good Wednesday story on how Ford wants to risk your life to be their diagnostic guinea pig when even the dealer has seen the issue and agrees that it is a safety concern. If they get the dash and car acting crazy on film I think Ford might be in a bit of hot water considering what is happening right now with Toyota. That is also why channel 9 (or whatever) might be especially interested in your little story right now.

 

Maybe you might want to mention to Ford that news whatever is coming for their own "black box" visit.

 

Jon

 

 

Hmmm..........nevermind. I think I'll take the high road here. But before I do..................from my perspective.............and knowing thet perspective is 100% reality.........I really don't think I'm over reacting. But why does it bother you that I do........you don't have skin in this game where as I do.

[lolder]

Ford cannot identify the issue. Let them drive the car with the "black box" for a few weeks.

[akirby]

Hmmm..........nevermind. I think I'll take the high road here. But before I do..................from my perspective.............and knowing thet perspective is 100% reality.........I really don't think I'm over reacting. But why does it bother you that I do........you don't have skin in this game where as I do.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've done, I just don't see the need to be a drama queen about the whole situation (e.g. not being able to push a button). This type of thing happens to all makes and models and it sounds like they're trying to get enough information to solve the problem for you. I was just trying to point out why this is difficult to diagnose and why no codes were set. It's not that uncommon.

 

I hope you get it fixed. I also hope you'll dial back the drama a bit.

[fsb99]

Ford cannot identify the issue. Let them drive the car with the "black box" for a few weeks.

 

This was my thought. Did you propose this to the Ford rep? Just tell them you don't feel safe in the vehicle and like suggested, mention that you are going to contact a local news station. I'm sure that will get their attention. Car safety is a very hot topic. Ask for a temporary FFH loaner. I bet it will change your experience greatly. I may be assuming too much here, but seems to me that Ford would benefit from troubleshooting and fixing this problem - let them do the "experimenting." As you said, it happens fairly often so they should see it almost right away.

[seamusbleu]

I've tried to follow this issue. From what I've read, the car has been experiencing gremlins primarily in the display area. Has there been any loss of drive-ability issues? Specifically, anything that effects the braking, acceleration or steering? Those are the critical safety areas. If not, I would probably be willing to drive with a black-box (the probably is because I don't know the details) rather than live without the car for extended periods of time.

 

I'm also curious to see the video of the malfunctions. If it captured an obvious malfunction of the display, that's as much evidence of a problem as any error code! If it's good enough, a youtube posting should give Ford all the incentive necessary to get your problem fixed. If it was me, I'd work with my dealer, and Ford, to help them help me. I'd take that approach as long as they were making a good faith effort to get to the bottom of the problem. I think the black box offer is proof that they are working with you. Only after every other avenue had been exhausted would I go the youtube route.

[oldschool1962]

The black box is currently in the car and was programmed to watch for Instrument cluster issues. The reason for that is that....per the Tech and this sounds about right to me too.........the cluster is just a display mechanism like a computer screen. It can only take the data provided to it from the various modules and display what that info is. If it's programmed to watch the IC then it will snap shot everything designated to the IC or that's the qist of what I understood. There is a problem with the Black Box and Hybrids though. They can only program it to watch one area at a time and get 4 each... 50 second snap shots......30seconds prior to pushing the button and 20 seconds after. That will stay that way for two weeks or until something happens. I have one snap shot already today. But it wasn't nearly at the level of this weekend.....more like what happened the second day I owned the car.

 

In two weeks it will be reprogrammed for the drive-ability. The drivability being why it stalled while doing 45mph, the regenerative and hydraulic brake issues as well as the sluggish performance over the weekend.

 

Thanks for the support? but.............."Drama queen"??????? That's enough of that. But it would seem you have pushing buttons down...........just not gonna be mine right now. Although......... I will ask....have you actually read all the posts? If you missed it.......I've explained that we've been having more than just one or two isolated driveability issues and the car has already stalled one time at hwy speeds. That is why I am so pissed off and about trying to push a button. It's also me and my family that Ford Tech support is playing Russian Roulette with. Because face it....any car that experiences instrument cluster issues like we have, had issues of loss of acceleration, braking or completely stalls is nothing more than a loaded gun pointed at the heads of the vehicles occupants not to mention adjacent drivers. Who know's maybe you'll get a chance with your FFH yet. Although this is not something that I would hope you nor anyone else would have to go through. Believe it or not I do have other things I'd rather be doing than this. As far as this being a normal thing.....no wonder Detroit is in the shape it's in.

 

I like the news idea and it just so happens that our neighbor has friends that work for CBS here in Richmond. Never had an opportunity like this.....where the circumstances are at the time of heightened issues. After I talk with the Dealer tomorrow will determine what my next call will be. Want to give them a chance first since we have an understanding about the "Liability Issues" It's just the decision has to come from a higher power and that power was having some medical issues today with a detached retina

 

The Dealer, to their credit, did fore-go factory approval and replaced the LV battery. They blew off the main tester that Ford wants them to use and used their old shop tester and found the battery had inconsistencies during 6 tests. Every other one produced a faulty battery. By the way.....the indicator eye was red. The shop has done a dozen things that deserve credit. Both the Service Manager and the Service Tech have been working on this car and the associated issues for weeks. All I see if Ford looking at them and saying they are crazy too. Unfortunately......the Engineers stated .......or something close to this.....that this (changing the LV battery) would have no bearing on things as the HV battery runs the systems of the vehicle. The service tech also took the IC out and re connected all the points of contact with conductive grease and checked everything. The Dealer is trying to set things right.

 

There was a hiccup with the black box tonight though. It powered down at some point in time while I was waiting for the DW at swim practice. I noticed it when I went to hit the button for a display issue and it was off. I had to wait for it to power up again and then I pressed the button. I don't know if it took info since it was off the 30seconds prior to me pushing the button. I'd guess it was off longer than that but I am only certain that it needed to be on for 30seconds ahead of time and it wasn't Know whata mean Vern????

 

Edit:

I am really trying to provide video but I just looked at the smaller of the two and it 127mb the second is 317mb. I haven't figured out how to get that out there yet but we are working on it.

Edited February 25, 2010 by oldschool1962

[akirby]

It's also me and my family that Ford Tech support is playing Russian Roulette with. Because face it....any car that experiences instrument cluster issues like we have, had issues of loss of acceleration, braking or completely stalls is nothing more than a loaded gun pointed at the heads of the vehicles occupants not to mention adjacent drivers.

 

Forget Drama Queen - you're now the Drama Czar! And yes, I read every post - twice. You're over-exaggerating the safety issue. If you REALLY thought this was such a safety issue you wouldn't be driving the car.

 

It's a royal pain-in-the-ass problem that Ford is trying to fix. Nothing more.

[oldschool1962]

Forget Drama Queen - you're now the Drama Czar! And yes, I read every post - twice. You're over-exaggerating the safety issue. If you REALLY thought this was such a safety issue you wouldn't be driving the car.

 

It's a royal pain-in-the-ass problem that Ford is trying to fix. Nothing more.

 

Allen,

 

At first I wasn't going to reply.......no way to win but then again I'm not trying to. Not to reply sends an automatic signal that I'm embarrassed you might be right. Well I'm not because after some thought...........maybe there is a part truth to what you say but only part......mainly because you are dealing with only part of the information and or knowledge of the circumstances and no experience what so ever.

After having the car for the day and letting the gravity of the situation sink in.....I probably should not have taken the car after what had happened over the weekend. In it's current state? I can't answer that because it's not doing anything like the weekend. But what's done is done. All I can do is stress my concerns and hope that nothing happens on the way back to the Dealership tomorrow. Basically the same approach to things I have been taking on a daily basis because Ford keeps telling me there is nothing wrong with my car. Still we have experienced different and judging by how everything proceeded for the last few weeks I doubt it will act up that severely tomorrow but then again I'm not an expert and I'm in part relying on the experts to take my concerns into account. I expressed my concerns to both Ford and the Dealership and they both felt that taking the car was okay. Ford insisted on it. How they feel tomorrow after they have a chance to think about it......just as I have.........and it may be a different story.

 

Trying to get a point across or convey information anywhere on the web is just about impossible for many reason. One I can think about is because there's nothing tangible about it. It's all heresy and conjecture until someone reaffirms or validates the information provided. But their's always some one that mucks up the works with............well what you are doing. No matter what though........I'm certainly not going to share everything that is going on especially when I'm dealing with every Richard Edward that decides to climb down from what ever part of Stone Mountain they are standing on. Because my emphasis of certain things doesn't agree with you then you have the option of not participating........ especially since you don't even own a Hybrid. It's great to have access to the entire site but maybe you should stick to a vehicle you have more experience with instead of gumming up the works for some of us who nay be just venting some steam so they don't.................but it's great to be you....right? And you would deal with this same situation differently? But we'll never know because.....as I once again may I point out.........you don't even own a Hybrid Fusion.

 

Get out of my face or get off this topic.

 

Here's the first video we shot. It's not the better one but it takes an hour to upload. The better one of twice the size so I will have to add it later.

 

Video link removed.........car reaquired by Ford.

Edited July 9, 2010 by oldschool1962

[lolder]

It's a little hard to keep track on the video because you move the camera back and forth from the nav screen to the instrument panel. If you can get a steady shot of only the instrument panel, it should confirm what this video seems to show, very aberrant behavior. Why was the HVB at such a high SOC? Once around the block with behavior like this should convince anyone.

[oldschool1962]

It's a little hard to keep track on the video because you move the camera back and forth from the nav screen to the instrument panel. If you can get a steady shot of only the instrument panel, it should confirm what this video seems to show, very aberrant behavior. Why was the HVB at such a high SOC? Once around the block with behavior like this should convince anyone.

 

 

Lee,

 

I went for the easy upload. The second video that is currently uploading is a bit better. The quality is not gonna win us any awards but we were trying to do the best we could. She was also focusing on the Nav screen trying to get the malfunction it was doing but not with much success. The streets are bumpy, there are wash gully's at the intersections and the cars brakes were acting up so the DW was getting bounced around the back seat pretty good. At one point she actually got jammed into the front seats and on the floor when I tried to stop. This was the first time I heard the narration. Playback on the computer from the file didn't have any and I didn't know there was any narration. Would've done a better job at trying to direct the DW in shots. The second video also shows more inf. This was shot with the video function of our 35mm digital Cannon so not bad all in all.

 

I actually found a third vid from when I was sitting outside the Walgreen's. It's hard to tell what's happening but if it will take....I'll try and upload it too.

 

Oh yeah....make sure ya'll go to full screen option. It really does make a difference in seeing things.

Edited February 25, 2010 by oldschool1962

[Zacher]

Hey OldSchool,

 

Sorry to hear all the troubles you're having. Might be a dumb question, but have they tried updating/re-programming the PCM or CMOS chip from a backup or factory copy? Just my quick thought as a computer guy. I just took mine in last week for the ABS/PowerTrain Customer Satisfaction reprogram.

 

Anyways, good luck man, that vid sums up all your great explanations you've been posting.

 

Zacher

[oldschool1962]

Zacher,

 

The dealer pulled data from every module and ad far as I know they ran the reprogram that was supplied by Ford for the issues. Not sure if they reran it. The Dealership seels to be very much by the book with this one as far as what they are and are not doing per Ford Tech line. If Ford Tech line doesn't give them the approval......it's not going to get done.Except fot eh LV battery that is. I can see the Dealers side to a point since they have eaten what I am guessing to be 3 of the RO's that have been generated and the work associated with them. We're talking several hours or a couple days of little to no pay for the Tech and the Shop

 

Here's the second video clip. Had to do this one overnight. How anyone sites here and downloads videos to youtube all day is beyond me.

Link removed. Car reaquired by Ford Edited July 9, 2010 by oldschool1962

[oldschool1962]

For what it's worth......

 

 

As most of you know and have been yourselvs.....right now I am just a po'd consumer. So some of the references I may make to the Engineers like I can picture them all sitting on a porch in Somewhere North Georgia holding banjo's is basically a vent.

 

I have had several friends over the years that are or were Engineers. Some of them graduated from Georgia Tech, some from MIT and some from other schools and for the most part they have all been very qualified in their Fields and smart individuals. Trouble is when they become part of the system that is handling things the way I perceive them to be. Look at Toyota. Up until yesterday it was probably one of the worlds leaders in integrity and quality but they got caught doing what they called "not hiding information....we just didn't share it properly". Unfortunately that is hiding information. People took them for their word and people were injured, maimed or killed because of their vehicles. I understand there's risk associated with driving a vehicle but I'd like a fighting chance that the vehicle is not going to be the cause only because some one put profits ahead of me or my family and friends using a depleted loss calculation.

 

I'm not saying what is or will be the case with mine but I am experiencing issues and Ford, like Toyota is taking the stance that there is not an issue.

 

They may be working like Banshees' behind the scenes to figure out things, and then again they may not. But what has set me off and started me looking at all scenarios is the way they have reacted to the situation that have been presented to them.

 

If there was something I would want Ford to do at this point is to replace my vehicle. Replace it with a vehicle that has a production date where none of these earlier issues are cropping up. If that's not possible........ a model where there is no chance of this happening again.....then they need to issue me a full refund. Maybe I'm grasping at straws with the last one but may I remind everyone that the first casualties of the Toyota debacle were told there was nothing wrong with their vehicles or what was told to them was not the actual cause.

 

Food for thought here.........Big problems are just a group of simple problems that were ignored. Well....would ya look at that....I've had nothing but simple problems.......until recently.

 

 

It's all one industry and that industry....like others around it.....has shown the propensity to think alike when it comes to profits....... make as much at whatever and whoevers expense........... Fine, Make a dollar, make a hundred a thousand or a million it's all relative to what your doing and selling. But don't lie or withhold info at our expense to make sure the margin stays padded. Mistakes and ultimately the correction of those mistakes are nothing more than the cost of doing business. I'll buy your products and use your services as long as I perceive a reasonable value or am treated with respect and dignity. Stop any of it and I'll just go away. This is Fords last second chance with cars.

 

I may be part of an ever shrinking "Middle class" but let me say if we can ever get our act together......the 2% of and ya'll messing us need to rethink things.......... That day may be sooner than you think.

Edited February 25, 2010 by oldschool1962