Brakes Disappeared

[sobayimage]

I just read in todays LA Times that the Fusion Hybrid is being recalled for a braking problem. I took my car into the dealership this morning and they went online and found out about the recall themselves. They said they would update the computer and have it later today.

I experienced only one braking problem 2 months ago and I thought at the time I had missed the brake peddle with my foot . I pushed down and there seemed to be nothing there. I was on the freeway and the car was on cruise control at the time. When I hit the brake peddle nothing happened. I tried again and then the car came off cruise and the brakes engaged. It was a heart stopping 3 seconds.

Edited February 5, 2010 by sobayimage

[Oman]

This was not the problem that is being addressed. Chances are you did miss the pedal. The cruise interlock is based on the initial activation of the pedal, just like the brake lights. The electronic braking is based off the position sensor for the pedal. There is a completely mechanical (actually hydraulic) system that works as the pedal passes past the 1/2 way point of travel. If you pressed the pedal all the way to the floor and nothing at all happened (cruise did not shut off, no braking at all) then I would guess that you didn't hit the pedal. Otherwise three different systems would have failed at the same time, and then worked again later.

 

I could buy both electronic systems failing under some circumstance (like on the Prius) but I don't see how the hydraulics could fail at the same time and then ever work again.

 

When there is a failure of the system that causes the hydraulics to kick-in by sheer force of the brake pedal the dash lights up red idiot lights and you get at pretty loud "bing" to make you look.

 

Jon

 

 

I just read in today’s LA Times that the Fusion Hybrid is being recalled for a braking problem. I took my car into the dealership this morning and they went online and found out about the recall themselves. They said they would update the computer and have it later today.

I experienced only one braking problem 2 months ago and I thought at the time I had missed the brake peddle with my foot . I pushed down and there seemed to be nothing there. I was on the freeway and the car was on cruise control at the time. When I hit the brake peddle nothing happened. I tried again and then the car came off cruise and the brakes engaged. It was a heart stopping 3 seconds.

[rlmalott]

Here's some information about the potential recall for brakes.

 

While not labeling it a recall, Ford Motor Co. said Thursday that it will update the software of the regenerative braking system on some already-delivered 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrids and Mercury Milan Hybrids. An Associated Press report said a total of 17,600 Fusion and Milan hybrids will be updated.

 

Ford calls the update a “customer satisfaction program” and will notify owners by mail.

 

“We have received reports that some drivers have experienced a different brake feel when the hybrid's unique regenerative brakes switch to conventional hydraulic braking,” Ford said in a statement. “While the vehicles maintain full braking capability, customers may initially perceive the condition as loss of brakes.”

 

Ford's announcement came on the same day that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration opened a formal investigation of the 2010 Toyota Prius hybrid to determine whether 37,000 of those vehicles suffer momentary loss of braking capabilities. Toyota said its fix involves reprogramming the car's software.

 

Ford said its affected vehicles will have the software reprogrammed by dealers at no charge to the customer.

 

The Fusion Hybrid's regenerative braking system reclaims kinetic energy by having electric motors use braking force to regenerate electricity. Ford says the 2010 Fusion Hybrid returns to the battery 94 percent of energy that otherwise would be lost to heat and friction.

 

Ford sold 15,559 Fusion Hybrids last year.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100204/CARNEWS/100209951#ixzz0eiA2xSX9

[sobayimage]

Many of the forum posts surrounding the FFH brake problem sound like they come directly from the Ford public relations department. I have a sneaking suspicion Ford is using Internet forum sites to control the damage of the recall by coming out with new wording to describe the recall operation. Ford uses “update a customer satisfaction program", instead of calling it a recall.

[Grey]

No recall required - not a safety issue. A customer satisfaction program is not mandatory, but is there if a customer wants their concern addressed (or in this case, software updated.) TSB's and dealer service notifications are not recalls either. What several of us object to is over sensationalizing minor issues and comparing them to real safety related problems..

 

Why not say "You have a one in 3,500 chance of having a different feel when braking if your regenerative braking system does not provide additional, initial assist." You might read the rest of the story, but not in a panic mode.

[lolder]

I think there are two issues here. One is when the computer does not allow regenerative braking during very cold battery conditions or battery reconditioning events. Then I believe pedal feel change is minimal. The other issue is when the software produces a computer glitch and the vehicle reverts to manual activation of the power hydraulic brakes. This produces a dramatic pedal feel change with its additional inch of pedal travel. This glitch is the target of the "customer satisfaction program". This very well may become a recall. I hope the software update doesn't make something else worse. That happens all the time with my (Dish) satellite system. It works fine for years and then suddenly has problems. It's always a software update problem.

[akirby]

For the 10,000th time, recalls only occur with a SAFETY issue and this is not a safety issue.

 

Make that 10,001.

[ctrcbob]

For the 10,000th time, recalls only occur with a SAFETY issue and this is not a safety issue.

 

Make that 10,001.

 

If brake problems are not a safety issue, I don't know what is!

[Grey]

I think there are two issues here. One is when the computer does not allow regenerative braking during very cold battery conditions or battery reconditioning events. Then I believe pedal feel change is minimal. The other issue is when the software produces a computer glitch and the vehicle reverts to manual activation of the power hydraulic brakes. This produces a dramatic pedal feel change with its additional inch of pedal travel. This glitch is the target of the "customer satisfaction program". This very well may become a recall. I hope the software update doesn't make something else worse. That happens all the time with my (Dish) satellite system. It works fine for years and then suddenly has problems. It's always a software update problem.

 

 

There is only one issue and it is not the failure of the brake system - only the potential loss of additional braking effect from regenerative charging of the battery pack.

 

Ask your service advisor to share the informatioon from the TSB and the dealer letter with you. Sorry you had a problem with your satellite system.

 

EDIT - I stand Corrected: There is manual operation of the brake system, but not a problem that has been identified, nor is it addressed in the TSB. The brakes don't dasappear.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Grey

[lolder]

There is only one issue and it is not the failure of the brake system - only the potential loss of additional braking effect from regenerative charging of the battery pack. There is no such thing as reverting to manual activation of the power hydraulic brakes.

 

Ask your service advisor to share the informatioon from the TSB and the dealer letter with you. Sorry you had a problem with your satellite system.

 

There IS manual actuation of the power hydraulic brakes. See this article: http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/59197/Tech_Featu.aspx. Refer to the "2009 and 2010 Escape/Mariner and Fusion/Milan SBA system" section. There is a physical connection from the pedal to the master cylinder after an additional pedal travel if the computer control system fails. The actual brake application is still assisted by vacuum boost in this situation. Turn your car on and look up above the brake pedal (if you're spry enough, it's tough). You will see two little white plastic "U" shaped parts attached to the master cylinder which look like miniature tuning forks. A pin going through the pedal arm is in these "U"s. Push on the brake pedal and you will see the master cylinder shaft depress keeping ahead of the pin engaging at the bottom of the "U"s. This is the computer actuating the hydraulic brakes with a power actuator. If that fails or the car is off, the pin engages the "U" at the bottom and applies the hydraulic brakes manually. When the computer fails, you get warnings on the panel. When the computer does not use regenerative breaking for other reasons (like when the car is not moving), you don't. Very clever system.

Edited February 7, 2010 by lolder

[rfruth]

Anyone know which computer controls regenerative braking ? (the ECU engine control unit) ((Regenerative braking appears only on front wheels as MG2 is directly connected with them. rear brakes are always friction)) ?

Edited February 7, 2010 by rfruth

[akirby]

If brake problems are not a safety issue, I don't know what is!

 

Losing brakes is a brake problem. Having brakes that FEEL funny (but still operate perfectly) is NOT - I repeat NOT - a safety issue.

[Oman]

There are several computers involved in braking since with regenerative braking the process crosses responsibilities. There is a primary device centered around braking and traction control. And regenerative braking only involves the front wheels as there is no motive connection to the rears. The computer will involve the friction brakes along with the regenerative braking as needed (heavy braking, wheel slip, < 5MPH)

 

Jon

 

 

Anyone know which computer controls regenerative braking ? (the ECU engine control unit) ((Regenerative braking appears only on front wheels as MG2 is directly connected with them. rear brakes are always friction)) ?

[acdii]

Toyota is recalling the Prius only because of the problems the other cars are having and that they are under heavy scrutiny. The problem the Prius is having is not the same that Ford is having. The prius Regen braking disconnects when hitting bumps, which can, and has, cause an accident. The Ford problem is the regen sometimes does not engage, leaving the driver to push further down on the brake. The first problem, the Prius is while braking, you have brakes, you are slowing down, you hit a little bump and the braking you were doing suddenly disappears. The second, the Ford, you step on the brakes, no regen, so you push a little harder, and there are your brakes. The first problem, if you are close to someone and they suddenly go away, you have a high chance of running into the car in front of you, the second if you dont feel brakes right away, your immediate reaction is to press harder, and there they are. I will take #2 of #1 any day as I have had #1 happen several times in the Camry Hybrid.

[junehhan]

I too will chime in here as I think these brake problems are getting way over sensationalized, and I mostly blame the media for that. It turns out that since Michael Jackson isn't dying, or Janet isn't having a wardrobe malfunction, that the media are determined to stretch as much mileage as they possibly can at the expense of companies. The bottom line is that these problems with the Camry or Fusion(hybrid versions) are not as serious as people make them out to be. Toyota has had just a little over 100 complaints(a few deaths unfortunately) based on how many cars they have sold? Ford has only had 3-4 confirmed problems based on the 18k hybrids that need a software update?

 

The bottom line is that I think people tend to hear these sesationalistic media reports and take situations out of context. If your vehicle gas pedal sticks, hit the brake and shift to neutral. As Toyota has stated, this is a problem that happens over time and if your gas pedal works fine now, it will likely continue to work fine. If your Fusion loses regen braking due to this software glitch, go a little further down on the pedal to engage the friction brakes. I will admit that it sounds like the Prius problem is a bit more serious though.

 

Cars have an amazing amount of technology these days. However, I wil end my rant on this note. I would much rather drive a Prius with faulty brakes rather than sit in the passenger seat of some SUV driven by some girl with a cell phone glued to her ear.

[rfruth]

I agree the Toyota recall thing has been over done but Fo.Mo.Co. ought to go out of their way to let the public know that other than regenerative brakes the Toyota / Ford issues have nothing to with each other (wait on 1 hand I say too much then I say need more info, how can that be) ?

[akirby]

I too will chime in here as I think these brake problems are getting way over sensationalized, and I mostly blame the media for that. It turns out that since Michael Jackson isn't dying, or Janet isn't having a wardrobe malfunction, that the media are determined to stretch as much mileage as they possibly can at the expense of companies. The bottom line is that these problems with the Camry or Fusion(hybrid versions) are not as serious as people make them out to be. Toyota has had just a little over 100 complaints(a few deaths unfortunately) based on how many cars they have sold? Ford has only had 3-4 confirmed problems based on the 18k hybrids that need a software update?

 

The bottom line is that I think people tend to hear these sesationalistic media reports and take situations out of context. If your vehicle gas pedal sticks, hit the brake and shift to neutral. As Toyota has stated, this is a problem that happens over time and if your gas pedal works fine now, it will likely continue to work fine. If your Fusion loses regen braking due to this software glitch, go a little further down on the pedal to engage the friction brakes. I will admit that it sounds like the Prius problem is a bit more serious though.

 

Cars have an amazing amount of technology these days. However, I wil end my rant on this note. I would much rather drive a Prius with faulty brakes rather than sit in the passenger seat of some SUV driven by some girl with a cell phone glued to her ear.

 

It isn't necessarily the brake problem itself - it's the fact that Toyota covered it up, fixed it on new models but was fully prepared to leave current customers in the lurch (or fix the problem on their next service visit without telling them - that happens a lot with Toyota and Honda). They also delayed stopping production on current models to fix the accelerator pedals and basically ignored the NHTSA requiring them to actually pay a visit to them in Japan. Not to mention the 26 unintended acceleration cases that were swept under the rug by a former NHTSA employee who went to work for Toyota.

 

The acceleration problem has still not been fully disclosed and is not related to the floor mats or pedals. It's electronic parts failure or software and when the truth does finally come out it will be even more damaging and embarassing for Toyota.

 

It's not the problems - it's how they've been handled for the last decade or so, at least.

[dogo88]

It isn't necessarily the brake problem itself - it's the fact that Toyota covered it up, fixed it on new models but was fully prepared to leave current customers in the lurch (or fix the problem on their next service visit without telling them - that happens a lot with Toyota and Honda). They also delayed stopping production on current models to fix the accelerator pedals and basically ignored the NHTSA requiring them to actually pay a visit to them in Japan. Not to mention the 26 unintended acceleration cases that were swept under the rug by a former NHTSA employee who went to work for Toyota.

 

The acceleration problem has still not been fully disclosed and is not related to the floor mats or pedals. It's electronic parts failure or software and when the truth does finally come out it will be even more damaging and embarassing for Toyota.

 

It's not the problems - it's how they've been handled for the last decade or so, at least.

 

Totally agree. Toyota has not been making the worlds best cars for quite a while. I personally felt they never did, but that's just me. Their handling of these current ones is symptomatic of a larger issue. What really gets me is CR has continually "recommended" them even though these issues were known and other car companies would have been called out.

 

Dan

[lolder]

Here is the Ford statement on the brake software upgrade: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=31983

It seems a little deceptive in that it glosses over the fact that it is a software FAILURE that causes the lights and chimes and it is not the normal transition between regen and hydraulic brakes that is of concern. Has anybody determined whether the upgrade reduces the use of regen brakes?

Edited February 17, 2010 by lolder

[Grey]

Totally agree. Toyota has not been making the worlds best cars for quite a while. I personally felt they never did, but that's just me. Their handling of these current ones is symptomatic of a larger issue. What really gets me is CR has continually "recommended" them even though these issues were known and other car companies would have been called out.

 

Dan

 

CR depends a lot on feedback from owners and Toyota did a great job of managing their "perceptions". They fixed things they knew were potential problems without informing the owners when they came in for maintenance serrvice. They down played issues and at best they told the customer we fixed a minor "concern" at no charge "just to make sure you never have any problems". Many of the fixes and problems never got reported on surveys because Toyota orchestrated the experience. NHTSA caught them and fined them a few years back, now they are under the microscope and stuff gets caught and reported.

 

Ford bounced back from the ignition switch recalls and the Firestone tire issue, and I expect Toyota to do the same. Just not with the same "Quality" halo they once had.

[Oman]

Hmm, I'm not sure how "To be clear, the Fusion and Milan Hybrids’ brake system maintains full conventional brakes and full ABS function even as the customer sees visual indicators and hears a chime." is glossing over the fact that you get visual indicators and a chime. The software is reverting to full hydraulic braking mode as a safety measure. It was over-detecting something that it thought might be a malfunction. I would rather have software over-detect and go into a good fail safe then just crap out.

 

Jon

 

 

Here is the Ford statement on the brake software upgrade: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=31983

It seems a little deceptive in that it glosses over the fact that it is a software FAILURE that causes the lights and chimes and it is not the normal transition between regen and hydraulic brakes that is of concern. Has anybody determined whether the upgrade reduces the use of regen brakes?

[lolder]

Jon,

Your statement: "It was over-detecting something that it thought might be a malfunction" is a much better description. Ford's statement: "The software threshold to transition from regenerative brakes to conventional brakes can cause the system to transition to conventional brakes unnecessarily" muddied the waters about the difference between normal brake transitions and ones caused by malfunctions. Do you think there has been any function change due to the upgrade?

 

Lee

[pbritt]

Losing brakes is a brake problem. Having brakes that FEEL funny (but still operate perfectly) is NOT - I repeat NOT - a safety issue.

Tell that to my wife who's"percieved loss of braking"resulted in a estimate of $1948.00 of damage to our 2010 FFH with 8,500 miles on it when the car wouldn't stop. Guess your right.Not a saftey issue till it happens to you.Still waiting on Ford as the dealer agrees that it is not her responcibility.

[akirby]

Tell that to my wife who's"percieved loss of braking"resulted in a estimate of $1948.00 of damage to our 2010 FFH with 8,500 miles on it when the car wouldn't stop. Guess your right.Not a saftey issue till it happens to you.Still waiting on Ford as the dealer agrees that it is not her responcibility.

 

Did she press hard on the brake pedal trying to stop? Maybe I misunderstood the problem but I thought the issue was during the transition from regenerative to mechanical brakes and that continuing to press harder on the brake pedal would engage the mechanical brakes which still work normally.

 

Wouldn't it be normal to press harder on the brake if the car wasn't stopping? Maybe she had some other type of problem?

[seamusbleu]

Tell that to my wife who's"percieved loss of braking"resulted in a estimate of $1948.00 of damage to our 2010 FFH with 8,500 miles on it when the car wouldn't stop. Guess your right.Not a saftey issue till it happens to you.Still waiting on Ford as the dealer agrees that it is not her responcibility.

I agree with the previous poster that the expected response in this kind of situation would be to press harder, but I can also envision a case were there wasn't time to "perceive the loss of braking" and then react by pressing harder.

 

How about giving us some more details on this?