HV Battery Upgrade or Plug-in system?

[oldschool1962]

Does anyone have any info on an upgrade to the HV battery or even a Plug-in retro kit for the FFH or any Hybrid vehicle for that matter?

 

Was watching a show the other evening and it was mentioned that the technology has improved greatly over the years (something we have been aware of for a while) and that batteries with more storage capacity and available power have been available for a couple years.

 

The program also highlighted the fact of a "plug-in" retro fit for many of the Hybrids on the market just around the corner.

 

Understanding that the FFH is new this year....the technology is not. IMHO it would certainly be a disadvantage if other manufacturers were to make this available and not Ford.

 

Just want to get all I can out of the vehicle.

 

Thanks.

[akirby]

Does anyone have any info on an upgrade to the HV battery or even a Plug-in retro kit for the FFH or any Hybrid vehicle for that matter?

 

Was watching a show the other evening and it was mentioned that the technology has improved greatly over the years (something we have been aware of for a while) and that batteries with more storage capacity and available power have been available for a couple years.

 

The program also highlighted the fact of a "plug-in" retro fit for many of the Hybrids on the market just around the corner.

 

Understanding that the FFH is new this year....the technology is not. IMHO it would certainly be a disadvantage if other manufacturers were to make this available and not Ford.

 

Just want to get all I can out of the vehicle.

 

Thanks.

 

No mfr I know of is offering battery upgrades or plug-in conversion kits. Ford is not behind the curve on this one. If you want to do it you'll have to do it aftermarket and out of warranty.

[Oman]

The FFH is was not designed to be a plug-in or full electric vehicle. It is designed to recover energy that would be lost in braking for re-use and to allow the gas engine to shut down whenever it is not needed for motive power. It therefore does not have a traction motor large enough to accelerate the car at any reasonable speed without the help of the gas engine. The battery technology used was chosen to fit this need and will handle tens of thousands of charge/recharge cycles which happen constantly during a drive session.

 

A plug-in hybrid (would that be a hybrid hybrid?) would have been built differently from the ground-up and would have different components in a number of areas. For instance they would have likely put in a much smaller/lighter gas engine and a larger traction motor. They would have also used a different battery technology and changed the charging logic.

 

The fact is that there are always trade-offs. The FFH was designed to be a gasoline powered mid-size car with great mileage. You can't build a car that works just like a gas car when you don't plug it in, then plug it in and have it be an electric car.

 

The Volt will be pretty pathetic when it runs out of wall-power. They can make a good electric car with limited distance, they can make a good gas car with longer distance, but they can't yet (and are not very close) make a good either-or car.

 

 

Jon

 

 

No mfr I know of is offering battery upgrades or plug-in conversion kits. Ford is not behind the curve on this one. If you want to do it you'll have to do it aftermarket and out of warranty.

[oldschool1962]

I guess I should have phrased my question(s) a bit differently. Although the info that has been very knowledgeable and accurate (thanks Oman) it isn't what I was trying to get at.

 

We have heard of a company that is currently outfitting the Prius with a battery that has more capacity nd is also able to be plugged in to an outlet at home (with a power pack). This is allowing the Prius to get approx 150mpg for the first 50 miles of driving. Basically it allows the system to also be in a current state of charge and keep the battery warm for those cold months. Granted the fuel economy is off during cold morning or days because the ICE does cycle more to keep the water temp up but that's just a by-product of not utilizing electric elements to assist the heater. I was told that the Fusion does not have this for heat assistance.

 

Anyhow, I'm not so much looking to make a table out of a chair in regards to the Hybrid but it would be nice if the battery would allow for more capacity and hold a charge longer.

 

I had a good bit of practice driving the Hybrid with my wife's Prius and have found that you can get a bit more accelleration out of the traction motor than what most believe. Also the fact that as I left the Dealership today from a service issue (they reprogramed the I.C.) I found myself able to accellerate better with only the traction motor than I was able to prior to the service. Problem was the battery depleated much faster than in the past.

 

The Fusion can be sooo much better than it is with all the current technology available out there. It's my un or under educated opinion that with some simple reprograming of the system to allow the systems and components already in place and provide a battery upgrade..... this vehicle could surpass the Prius and begin to set standards for Hybrids that should have been in place 10 years ago.

 

I admit I have a great deal to learn about these vehicles especially since it's a long way and time from my knowledge base of y youth. I am much more familiar with the 289, 302, 351W & C and just about every other Ford V-8 to come out of Detroit from 1964 1/2 to 1973 so this is a new and uncharted territory for me.

 

Just to answer a question that may have crept into anyone's head on why I didn't buy another Prius (when I mentioned my wife's Prius........) I believe in Ford and really wanted to give it a chance. We've been bitten in the past by problematic Fords but I am very loyal and also believed that Ford earned a chance to get my business again when they made it thru the financial mess. Plus.....Toyota would only give me Auction value for our trade and the NADA value was basically what Ford gave us.

Edited December 2, 2009 by oldschool1962

[DaveM]

There may someday be some kind of package we can buy to upgrade our Hybrids like you can with the Prius. I know there are a couple kits starting about under $1700 but you have to remember the Prius has been around for many years where as the Fusion is in its first year. I doubt if less than 1% of Prius owners get a kit for their cars so for arguements sake we'll use that number. Now how many Fusion Hybrids are there X 1% or less. Not very many kits would be sold at that rate. In order to sell a product and sell it at a good price you need lots of sales and we are no where near that yet. Maybe in a few years but who knows, maybe the kits that are out can be fitted to our cars and if enough people contact those companies maybe they will see the extra $$ in their eyes and spend the money to convert the kit to fit our cars.

One way to tell is are there any kits for the Excape Hybrid on the market. That would be the closest to ours and the easiest to retrofit.

[Rodeo]

Saw some news somewhere today that Nissan is reportedly developing new Lithium Ion batteries that will essentially double the running life of a hybrid car battery. Due to hit the market for 2015 model year. Can't remember where I read it but it was posted today.

 

Found it:

 

http://gas2.org/2009/12/01/with-new-battery-nissan-plans-to-double-ev-range-by-2015/

Edited December 1, 2009 by Rodeo

[lolder]

To add again, this is not an electric car nor was it designed to be one. It is about the most efficient ICE technology, good performance vehicle that has ever been built or is likely to be built until high temperature engines with more thermodynamic efficiency can be built. It is as efficient as the Prius and the mpg difference is due to the added 700 lb. of the Ford. Adding battery capacity will not improve it. With a plug in you have the additional expense and weight of more batteries and a high voltage battery charger. You will be paying almost the same amount for the AC energy from your home as you would for gasoline and once the government figures out they have to raise the taxes on electricity to make up for the lost road maintenance tax money from gasoline, the AC charging power cost will probably be the same or more. The efficiency of the power generation cycle of the electrical utilities including all the transmission loses and charge/discharge cycles may be less than these Atkinson cycle engines. The emissions of the car engines will often be less unless the electric utility is nuclear, hydroelectric or perhaps natural gas. We get seduced when we see the gauges go to 60+ and 99.9 mpg and we think we're traveling for free. We're not. The energy has to be supplied and BOUGHT from someplace. The combination of the Atkinson Cycle ICE, power-split device eCVT, and the motor/generators and the HV battery is a fantastic achievement of modern engineering. All of them have been around a hundred years but never together like this. Be very wary of new battery technology. Battery problems will be a killer for any vehicle that has them.

 

Lee

[junehhan]

To add again, this is not an electric car nor was it designed to be one. It is about the most efficient ICE technology, good performance vehicle that has ever been built or is likely to be built until high temperature engines with more thermodynamic efficiency can be built. It is as efficient as the Prius and the mpg difference is due to the added 700 lb. of the Ford. Adding battery capacity will not improve it. With a plug in you have the additional expense and weight of more batteries and a high voltage battery charger. You will be paying almost the same amount for the AC energy from your home as you would for gasoline and once the government figures out they have to raise the taxes on electricity to make up for the lost road maintenance tax money from gasoline, the AC charging power cost will probably be the same or more. The efficiency of the power generation cycle of the electrical utilities including all the transmission loses and charge/discharge cycles may be less than these Atkinson cycle engines. The emissions of the car engines will often be less unless the electric utility is nuclear, hydroelectric or perhaps natural gas. We get seduced when we see the gauges go to 60+ and 99.9 mpg and we think we're traveling for free. We're not. The energy has to be supplied and BOUGHT from someplace. The combination of the Atkinson Cycle ICE, power-split device eCVT, and the motor/generators and the HV battery is a fantastic achievement of modern engineering. All of them have been around a hundred years but never together like this. Be very wary of new battery technology. Battery problems will be a killer for any vehicle that has them.

 

Lee

 

 

You hit a very important nail on its head. Even assuming that extended range hybrids like the Volt are cheaper to operate by charging the battery at home, eventually the government is going to realize that they are going to have to find a way to tax these vehicles. Once that happens, the actual savings may not be very significant when considering the huge cost of entry to a plug in hybrid.

 

I personally think that the government is making a HUGE mistake by trying to force electric plug in vehicles onto the market before they figure out how they are going to be taxed. That should have been done first so that when the taxation issues appear, people knew what to expect from the beginning. I also think that they better start figuring out quickly how our electrical grid is even going to be able to handle the additional load, especially in regions that are already running at maximum capacity.

[rfruth]

IMO the government knows they are going to need a mileage based tax for PHEVs EVs and when individuals and business realize they can produce their own electricity from solar, wind, pond scum etc the old gas tax isn't going to cut it.

Edited December 2, 2009 by rfruth

[oldschool1962]

To add again, this is not an electric car nor was it designed to be one. It is about the most efficient ICE technology, good performance vehicle that has ever been built or is likely to be built until high temperature engines with more thermodynamic efficiency can be built. It is as efficient as the Prius and the mpg difference is due to the added 700 lb. of the Ford. Adding battery capacity will not improve it. With a plug in you have the additional expense and weight of more batteries and a high voltage battery charger. You will be paying almost the same amount for the AC energy from your home as you would for gasoline and once the government figures out they have to raise the taxes on electricity to make up for the lost road maintenance tax money from gasoline, the AC charging power cost will probably be the same or more. The efficiency of the power generation cycle of the electrical utilities including all the transmission loses and charge/discharge cycles may be less than these Atkinson cycle engines. The emissions of the car engines will often be less unless the electric utility is nuclear, hydroelectric or perhaps natural gas. We get seduced when we see the gauges go to 60+ and 99.9 mpg and we think we're traveling for free. We're not. The energy has to be supplied and BOUGHT from someplace. The combination of the Atkinson Cycle ICE, power-split device eCVT, and the motor/generators and the HV battery is a fantastic achievement of modern engineering. All of them have been around a hundred years but never together like this. Be very wary of new battery technology. Battery problems will be a killer for any vehicle that has them.

 

Lee

Hey Lee,

Okay....Bear with me here.......Have a lot of thoughts scrambling up there and........ :idea:

 

I completely understand and wouldn't even consider disputing what you are talking about in regards to the EV design or not. Yet, I will just say that the vehicle can and is designed to operate in pure EV mode.

 

Not to get off the subject but there is something I'd like to mention regarding the EV mode. I menioned in another post the issues I've been having with the Hybrid systems. I also mentioned that today the dealer reprogramed the I.C. in an effort to fix these issues. Well????????

 

I purchased the vehicle I test drove and it was the first Fusion I looked at. Basically it had the package and exterior color I wanted and was also the only one in the area that was even close. Anyhow, the car I left the dealership with after lunch may have been the same car but after driving it tonight......it does not perform as it did. There was a significant difference in performance of the Hybrid and EV systems. Basically the car drives exactly like I expected it to and as far as I'm concerned the last 1500 miles were a waste of effort trying to understand things. It was those 1500 miles of experience and the ensuing frustration that has led me to look at things this way.

 

Now.....my track record with Detroit is not good and.......time will tell how well the reprogram worked but I am astonished at the difference in the drive of the FFH. It drives exactly like my wife's 2010 Prius. I was alway comparing the two since the two were supposed to be so much alike....mainly from the technology share with Ford and Toyota. Something that I probably shouldn't have been doing but what other bench mark could I use? Certainly not the 2006 Odyssey I traded in....and the only thing remotely eco about it was the VCM that made it a 3cyl from a 6 on the Hwy or at reasonable throtle pressure.

 

Back to the subject though. The Prius may be 13 years old and the FFH only 1 but the basis for the FFH is not new by any means.

 

As far as the battery weight goes, there is one company in particular out there that makes a battery that is light weight and also can provide adequate charge capacity. It was featured in the show "who Killed the Electric Car".

 

Now as an example....I run 1/29 scaale, battery operated Garden Trains. Basically I have 3 choices of batteries to choose from. NiCad, Litium Ion and NiMH. Each battery looses weight and gains charge capacity respectively. (that's if I remember what I learned a few years ago. I may have the Litium and the NiMH batteries reversed) Anyhow, I get far less operating time with the NiCad than I do with the other two. As an example, using a single locomotive (Model of an SD-45 having 2 motors to drive 12 wheels and the same basic power supply as HO model trains) I can pull an 68 car train (approx. 220lb dead weight and as for static weight.... I am not sure) around a friends layout for up to 4 hours on a single charge of the NiMH or LitIon. The NiCad is 2 hours with 1/6th the train. My point is that the battery technology is available and the wegths have been redused significantly over just the last couple years. I can only guess the reason why it's still not available in vehicles today would be overwhelming.

 

The idea of taxes scares the beejeebus outta me and not something I really want to get started on. Not exactly the correct forum for that. :doh:

Edited December 2, 2009 by oldschool1962

[Oman]

Actually, it isn't. The elecro-motive system is designed to supplement the ICE, be able to handle light acceleration on level ground, and maintain speed up to 47MPH. It is not designed to be a fully functional EV mode vehicle. The internal combustion engine in the car is designed to have more efficiency by running a modified Atkinson cycle rather than an Otto cycle. This means considerably less torque is available from the ICE. This lower torque from the ICE is supplemented by the traction motor when needed. The Volt on the other hand is designed to operate exclusively in elecro-motive mode, using the gas engine to only supply electrical power - never direct motive power. The gas "charger" can not supply the full current of a fully charged battery. There is a considerable difference in the design of a plug-in EV vehicle with gas supplemental charging and a closed-system hybrid like the FFH or Prius.

 

Apparently one of the big problems GM is having is that they would like to have the Volt sit and charge itself when parked, having the gas engine run at the most efficient RPM and charge rate for the battery when plug-in is not available. However this is a HUGE safety concern. Parking lots are not designed to have cars running except when coming and going, and quite frankly not many people are qualified to make decisions about if it is safe enough to run a gas engine in any particular closed-in area. I don't want my life depending on some idiot trying to save a buck and have their Volt charging while parked.

 

Now on to the battery... If there were a battery available that had the same charge efficiency, current capability, cycle count, and temperature tolerance, but at 1/2 the weight it would be used in the FFH. There simply isn't, and I follow the technologies pretty closely. There are a few technologies that have 2x the KWh capacity per pound, but suffer greatly on the charge efficiency and cycle count. There are others that have good cycle count and poor charge efficiency, etc.

 

Hybrids are a closed system. The size and capability of the battery is tuned to the expected energy recovery of the braking system. If you put in 2x the battery capacity you would not get better mileage. If the battery had the same charge efficiency and weight you would get the exact same mileage. In fact for some drivers better mileage would be obtained by using a battery with 1/2 the weight and 1/2 the charge capacity depending on what types of roads the car is driven on.

 

The fact that the battery stays at 1/2 charge normally is not an indicator that the battery should be "bigger". The charge level of 1/2 is quite intentional. If the computer sees more than 1/2 charge then it will use the traction motor more and the ICE in order to get back to 1/2 charge. It wants 1/2 charge because that keeps 1/2 the battery available for energy recovery and 1/2 available when need to keep the ICE at an efficient RPM/Torque range. If the computer kept the battery at say 3/4 level as "normal" then the battery would likely reach 100% before braking might be completed and the energy would be wasted. If it kept it down at 25% then the computer would not be able to keep the ICE in the most economical RPM/Torque range when accelerating over longer distances.

 

Ford spent a boatload of time an energy tuning the entire system to be as efficient as possible while still delivering a decent-powered mid size sedan. They could have made it more efficient by for instance mating up a smaller ICE (the Prius for instance is a 1.5L). That would have saved some weight and thus would have helped gain some mileage, but the performance would have suffered. They could have stripped out some of the interior and used lighter cheaper materials but then it would not be as nice a car.

 

There simply is no "just replace the battery and gain..." Ford wanted a market maker and spent the time and effort to get there. They built a huge portfolio of patents working on the FFH - and they don't come from nothing.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Lee,

 

I completely understand and wouldn't even consider disputing what you are talking about in regards to the EV design or not. Yet, I will just say that the vehicle can and is designed to operate in pure EV mode.

 

Not to get off the subject but there is something I'd like to mention regarding the EV mode. I menioned in another post the issues I've been having with the Hybrid systems. I also mentioned that today the dealer reprogramed the I.C. in an effort to fix these issues. Well????????

 

I purchased the vehicle I test drove and it was the first Fusion I looked at. Basically it had the package and exterior color I wanted and was also the only one in the area that was even close. Anyhow, the car I left the dealership with after lunch may have been the same car but after driving it tonight......it does not perform as it did. There was a significant difference in performance of the Hybrid and EV systems. Basically the car drives exactly like I expected it to and as far as I'm concerned the last 1500 miles were a waste of effort trying to understand things. It was those 1500 miles of experience and the ensuing frustration that has led me to look at things this way.

 

Now.....my track record with Detroit is not good and.......time will tell how well the reprogram worked but I am astonished at the difference in the drive of the FFH. It drives exactly like my wife's 2010 Prius. I was alway comparing the two since the two were supposed to be so much alike....mainly from the technology share with Ford and Toyota. Something that I probably shouldn't have been doing but what other bench mark could I use? Certainly not the 2006 Odyssey I traded in....and the only thing remotely eco about it was the VCM that made it a 3cyl from a 6 on the Hwy or at reasonable throtle pressure.

 

Back to the subject though. As far as the battery weight goes, there is one company in particular out there that makes a battery that is light weight and also can provide adequate charge capacity. It was featured in the show "who Killed the Electric Car".

 

Now as an example....I run battery operated Garden Trains. Basically I have 3 choices of batteries to choose from. NiCad, Lition..........

 

The idea of taxes scares the beejeebus outta me and not something I really want to get started on. Not exactly the correct forum for that. :doh:

 

 

 

Will be back to edit. Computer freezing up so.........

[oldschool1962]

Hey Jon,

 

Well it may not be designed to do such but for what ever reason.....I've been able to pull it off and as I mentioned.....even better after Ford reprogramed the I.C.

 

As far as the working of the Atkinson vs. Otto........ I have to go back almost 34 years to remember what the heck the Otto is. Atkinson os new to me or maybe not. Maybe I know it under a different name. I'll have to google things to get a better understand since I don't have a copy of my 1976 High School Auto Class text anymore.

 

Thanks for all the info tho. It has been very helpful.

 

Still can't fault a person for wishful thinking. I guess it's just a misconception or misperception of what the current Hybrids are all about. But understand in no way am I Ford bashing. I like the vehicle a great deal and now that it seems to be operating more as expected........it's a good base of icing on the cake.

 

By the way.....I've been pulling numbers of 40 to 43 for combined mileage....that was before the I.C. reprogram and during break-in. Not complaining at all just would like to get better if possible.

Edited December 2, 2009 by oldschool1962

[lolder]

I don,t know whether putting a smaller ICE in the Ford would improve the efficiency. It would surely lower performance. The 2010 Prius went from 1.5 l. to 1.8 l., gained a little weight and got better mileage. The 1000 to 2000 rpm range in the Atkinson Cycle is the target rpm and a bigger engine may put you there more often. They are operated at very large throttle plate openings and low rpm. It's rare for vehicles with standard automatic transmissions to be in that regime. You can come close to doing it by "lugging" a manual transmission. Remember when they would "buck"? These vehicles are operated right on that edge by the computer. When you're driving at about 50 mph, you can just barely feel the 4 cylinders firing. Even though at that speed you have a very light foot on the accelerator, each cylinder is putting out almost it's maximum power for that rpm. When you drive on a completely level road at constant speed, you'll often see the instantaneous mpg gauge fluctuating at a relatively regular rate about 5 mpg or more. This may be "dithering" of the spark advance and torque settings to operate right on the edge. The Prius does the same thing. There are a bunch of tiny electrical, mechanical, and chemical engineers under the hood twiddling valves and switches hundreds of times a second.

 

Lee

[lolder]

"Apparently one of the big problems GM is having is that they would like to have the Volt sit and charge itself when parked, having the gas engine run at the most efficient RPM and charge rate for the battery when plug-in is not available. However this is a HUGE safety concern. Parking lots are not designed to have cars running except when coming and going, and quite frankly not many people are qualified to make decisions about if it is safe enough to run a gas engine in any particular closed-in area. I don't want my life depending on some idiot trying to save a buck and have their Volt charging while parked."

 

In Florida, I believe it's illegal to leave a vehicle running unattended but I doubt it's enforced much. You could leave a FFH "on" with the AC (and a TV plugged into the 110 vac outlet) on and the ICE would come on for a few minutes several times an hour and it would do that for a week on a tank of gas. Talk about camping in your car.....

 

Lee

[lrymal]

....There are a bunch of tiny electrical, mechanical, and chemical engineers under the hood twiddling valves and switches hundreds of times a second.

I love knowing that Scotty is down there.......! "Aye! The dilithium crystal chamber is working perfectly!"

[walts51]

"

 

In Florida, I believe it's illegal to leave a vehicle running unattended but I doubt it's enforced much. You could leave a FFH "on" with the AC (and a TV plugged into the 110 vac outlet) on and the ICE would come on for a few minutes several times an hour and it would do that for a week on a tank of gas. Talk about camping in your car.....

 

Lee

 

Just bought my FFH three weeks before we went on vacation with friends to Florida. We got to the condo 6 hours earlier than the others the desk would not give us the keys and my wife was sicker than a dog. That FFH kept it cool in the car and we had plenty of movies to watch. While it barely sipped the gas. It was then I realized how much I loved this car.

[DaveM]

Just bought my FFH three weeks before we went on vacation with friends to Florida. We got to the condo 6 hours earlier than the others the desk would not give us the keys and my wife was sicker than a dog. That FFH kept it cool in the car and we had plenty of movies to watch. While it barely sipped the gas. It was then I realized how much I loved this car.

I hope you made her sit outside so she didn't puke all inside the car or get you sick too..................just kidding.

[walts51]

I hope you made her sit outside so she didn't puke all inside the car or get you sick too..................just kidding.

lol No I just made her sit on trash bags and bagged her surroundings. jk

[oldschool1962]

The FFH is was not designed to be a plug-in or full electric vehicle.............

 

After spending a good portion of the morning in "City" driving......speeds basically ranging from 20-40......and seeing my mileage tank today (okay not tank but I lost 7 mpg with today's errands).......... I have to ask how else is the vehicle able to get 43mpg city other than operationg in EV mode. So........is EV mode not a specific design of the vehicle? :stirpot:

 

By no means am I challenging the knowledge base here but as "Joe Consumer" that's the ecpectation. :headscratch: Ya just don't expect to see the mileage tank because you changed from a good mix of city/HWY to mostly City. Actuallt would'e expected quite the opposite

 

As I've said I've had a good deal of practice in "pedaling" the vehicle so I am no lead foot. It's not like I'm driving my dual quad, 351W, 66 Mustang. So......I understand the difference or purpose between the two vehicles. :doh: :D

[Oman]

The car has an EV mode and it is there to help boost the mileage. EV mode allows the ICE to turn off under certain conditions. The limiting factors for those conditions are: The recovered energy available for EV mode and the current power demands (both motive and parasitic).

 

In a full EV vehicle the electro-motive and battery systems are designed to provide for all the needs of the vehicle for a limited range using energy provided externally. After that there is (optionally) an on-board generator that can power the EV systems in a more limited fashion. For instance the Volt doesn't "need" a gas engine at all and it would be lighter and go farther on battery if it didn't have one. GM understands however that people will need to go farther on occasion and is building in a system to do that. The key however is that unlike hybrids the Volt will not perform the same when the battery runs out. You either have to leave it "charge" off the gas engine for a while or you have to drive with limited motive power available.

 

 

What I would like to see is a diesel hybrid. Diesel has more energy per gallon and the cycle has less loss in conversion. You could mate a smaller and lighter diesel ICE with the FFH hybrid system and get (by my rough estimates) about 10-15MPG better mileage between the lighter weight and the better efficiency of diesel.

 

 

Jon

 

 

You could say that hybrids have a "light" EV mode and EV vehicles are fully-EV. Just semantics I suppose from a use point of view but completely different from a design, implementation, and purpose point of view.

 

 

 

After spending a good portion of the morning in "City" driving......speeds basically ranging from 20-40......and seeing my mileage tank today (okay not tank but I lost 7 mpg with today's errands).......... I have to ask how else is the vehicle able to get 43mpg city other than operationg in EV mode. So........is EV mode not a specific design of the vehicle? :stirpot:

 

By no means am I challenging the knowledge base here but as "Joe Consumer" that's the ecpectation. :headscratch: Ya just don't expect to see the mileage tank because you changed from a good mix of city/HWY to mostly City. Actuallt would'e expected quite the opposite

 

As I've said I've had a good deal of practice in "pedaling" the vehicle so I am no lead foot. It's not like I'm driving my dual quad, 351W, 66 Mustang. So......I understand the difference or purpose between the two vehicles. :doh: :D

[lolder]

After spending a good portion of the morning in "City" driving......speeds basically ranging from 20-40......and seeing my mileage tank today (okay not tank but I lost 7 mpg with today's errands).......... I have to ask how else is the vehicle able to get 43mpg city other than operationg in EV mode. So........is EV mode not a specific design of the vehicle? :stirpot:

 

By no means am I challenging the knowledge base here but as "Joe Consumer" that's the ecpectation. :headscratch: Ya just don't expect to see the mileage tank because you changed from a good mix of city/HWY to mostly City. Actuallt would'e expected quite the opposite

 

As I've said I've had a good deal of practice in "pedaling" the vehicle so I am no lead foot. It's not like I'm driving my dual quad, 351W, 66 Mustang. So......I understand the difference or purpose between the two vehicles. :doh: :D

 

EV mode is certainly a design aspect of the vehicle. It is designed to improve the efficiency of the ICE at low speeds by loading up the ICE with charging and propulsion at low speeds and then retrieving the energy for EV propulsion. Improving (increasing) the load on the ICE at low power levels is more efficient than the electric motor/generator charge/discharge loses. There is a lot of loss in those processes. It has been my experience that the mpg continues to improve the slower your average speed all the way down to 20 mph. I live in a small town, not a city and sometimes achieve 60 mpg driving around it. 40-45 is more common. In summer with AC on, 35-40 mpg. Make sure you do your braking when possible early in the deceleration, not later. Look ahead to the traffic lights. All of these help improve mpg in any vehicle but make dramatic improvements in hybrids. Most everybody on this forum is on their first year with a hybrid and colder temperatures are approaching (any Aussies here?)with higher fuel usage. I'm in Florida with 70's temps now and driving with the AC off so my mpg is going up compared to the summer when AC use drives the accessory load to 5 of the 7 divisions for a few minutes every start. Once you're getting 40 mpg +/- little things mean A LOT. Headwinds, AC, wet roads, hills (going up), etc. all reduce mpg a lot. They will require a lot of energy even in a pure plug in electric only vehicle. Increasing the battery capacity in a hybrid will only change the period of the ICE/EV duty cycle at slower speeds. Instead of 1/2 mile EV, 1/2 mile ICE, you'd get maybe 4 miles EV, 4 miles ICE. The overall mpg will be the same. Now if you only go 4 miles in EV, that will give you 99.9 mpg. You've got to recharge the battery the next drive.

 

Lee

Edited December 3, 2009 by lolder

[oldschool1962]

Hey Lee,

 

Well?????The improvements you mention are pretty much in use right now. Today was an exceptionally different day in the fact that I did very little driving on the HWY. But my concern comes when I'm getting a better overall mileage % (the 40-43 I mentioned earlier)with more HWY driving. It's been kinda my point from the beginning that the addition of a larger capacity battery (not necessarily size or weight) the reprogramming to allow the current battery to hmaintain charge above 1/2 or even a plug in option (like what will be possibly available for the 2011 Prius....per our Toyota Dealer).

 

I've seen the onboard stuff when it (the ICE) is charging the battery and I can....through "pedaling the car" keep the instant MPG 35 or higher. This inturn does help the over-all or long-term MPG. But because the battery depleats so dog-gone quickly and is maintained only at 1/2......I never seem to get the full measure of use out of it.

 

It has been mentioned about grade or streets and such but...... with moderate pedal pressure, it is possible to get the car moving at a much better than snails pace up to 35mph. But it takes more than a 1/2 charged battery Granted I live in an area that is less graded or hill than someone in Atlanta or KC so I could deffinitely see the benifit for a regional option

 

Regardless of what has been invested by Ford on this vehicle my intention is not to appear disrespecful to the people or their efforts. Yet at the same time it's also not out of the realm of possiblity that with a bit of tweaking by the right people.......this car could do better no matter what. Even though the FFH is in year one (or two depending how close someone wants to split a hair....) it's predecessor the Focu and the Escape are the technologies that came before. This vehicle was not nor did not come from Ford reinventing the wheel. It's almost like the thought process can be perceived.....this is as good as it gets.

 

Some of those random thoughts I mentioned earlier and very much IMHO

Edited December 3, 2009 by oldschool1962

[lolder]

Many things in life are a compromise. The FFH is one. The battery could be charged and discharged more but that wouldn't improve the mpg and battery life would suffer. There have been other posts here about aftermarket changes to the logic. In the owners manual, Ford says that the HV battery should last the "life of the car"! That's a pretty broad (and vague) statement but it is still extraordinary in the field of rechargeable batteries. I know there are RC experts on this forum that are very knowledgeable about batteries. Several thousand cycles are a big deal. These hybrids are looking for 10,000 cycles or more. They are very "shallow" cycles. I do not believe there are many more improvements to make in hybrid technology. If the LiIon or some other battery can be made as durable as the NiMH, there can be a weight savings. Using aluminum or Kevlar in the chassis will save weight but at great expense. If you get a vehicle down to 2000 lbs. or less, you start needing expensive active suspensions to make it ride smoothly. No practical higher efficiency ICE is available now. Diesels are no more efficient than these Atkinson cycle engines. Right now it's about weight, acceleration performance and aerodynamic drag. The efficiency of the drive train components are state of the art. The Prius is lighter and gets better mileage but it doesn't ride as smoothly nor is it as quiet or have as good acceleration. That's a marketing decision.

 

Lee

[oldschool1962]

Well Lee, You've been pretty straight forward throughout the whole conversation here and I have to say I do understand what you are saying. More over you're correct about a great deal but nothing more than it being a compromise.

 

In all honesty, it was a compromise from the beginning of our purchase in the fact that I really wanted to wait one more year. I honesstly believe that the year would have yielded a significant improvement. Just a gut feeling but a feeling none the less.....in other words I can offer no tangeable proof.

 

Anyhow it's just as much timing as it is compromise. The Van was far more roomy and suited our needs perfectly....when we lived in the middle of the country and used it to travel to the East and West coasts but we now live on the East Coast and.....well it's a shhort trip to our connections here but it's 3-4 days to them in........Oh well. Anyhow the Van was also at a point of going horribly negative in the equity dept because of mileage. Add in the Daughter's competative swimming and her practices 3-4 times a week and meets 2 days a month, the 17mpg in the van (down from 21 because of the increased usage and conditions) and the ever looming Sword of Damoclese with fuel prices..........a de3cision had to be made.

 

Regardless of how I feel or perceive things or even want them to be better......the FFH is a sharp vehicle and even though it has been a tad bit more problematic than we would have liked for being a new car.....the purchase has allowed us to improve our situation over all and I guess I should be happy with that. Especially when 35mpg is more than twice as good as 17. Hehehe. So....in a very real sense....yes I am happy but it's also my personality (as an ex Executive Chef) to look for areas of improvement and look for ways for them to happen.

 

Gotta say, it's a good conversation and I have certainly learned something from it. Thanks and Cheers! :beerchug:

Edited December 4, 2009 by oldschool1962

[Oman]

Again though, the 1/2 is intentional. When over 1/2 charge the computer will use the juice to help the ICE run more efficiently. That is the best use of the energy. Once you hit 1/2 charge then it will only occasionally boost the ICE with battery power. You could reprogram the computer to never boost the ICE and only power EV mode, or alternatively not power EV mode at all and only boost the ICE. They ran simulations, build test cars, and gather gigabytes of data about what works best for this vehicle to get the best mileage. Remember that a big reason for making this car was meeting the fleet MPG goals - that effects their entire line of cars. Every extra MPG they could eek out of this car benefits every other car in their lineup. The spent a ton of research getting it to where it is. It is unlikely that you could tweak it much without losing something else. That's not to say that - for instance - you couldn't get 5MPG better mileage by having the charge characteristics changed to the point that you would need to replace your battery every year. Obviously there was a balance to be struck. I trust them and their legion of engineers to get that balance right.

 

Jon

 

 

Hey Lee,

 

Well?????The improvements you mention are pretty much in use right now. Today was an exceptionally different day in the fact that I did very little driving on the HWY. But my concern comes when I'm getting a better overall mileage % (the 40-43 I mentioned earlier)with more HWY driving. It's been kinda my point from the beginning that the addition of a larger capacity battery (not necessarily size or weight) the reprogramming to allow the current battery to hmaintain charge above 1/2 or even a plug in option (like what will be possibly available for the 2011 Prius....per our Toyota Dealer).

 

I've seen the onboard stuff when it (the ICE) is charging the battery and I can....through "pedaling the car" keep the instant MPG 35 or higher. This inturn does help the over-all or long-term MPG. But because the battery depleats so dog-gone quickly and is maintained only at 1/2......I never seem to get the full measure of use out of it.

 

It has been mentioned about grade or streets and such but...... with moderate pedal pressure, it is possible to get the car moving at a much better than snails pace up to 35mph. But it takes more than a 1/2 charged battery Granted I live in an area that is less graded or hill than someone in Atlanta or KC so I could deffinitely see the benifit for a regional option

 

Regardless of what has been invested by Ford on this vehicle my intention is not to appear disrespecful to the people or their efforts. Yet at the same time it's also not out of the realm of possiblity that with a bit of tweaking by the right people.......this car could do better no matter what. Even though the FFH is in year one (or two depending how close someone wants to split a hair....) it's predecessor the Focu and the Escape are the technologies that came before. This vehicle was not nor did not come from Ford reinventing the wheel. It's almost like the thought process can be perceived.....this is as good as it gets.

 

Some of those random thoughts I mentioned earlier and very much IMHO