Intermittent EV mode failures

[fffbobl]

Twice in the last two weeks, my electric drive mode has failed to operate as usual. Anyone had the same experience and if so, has it been acknowledged by Ford and repaired? I took my vehicle in to the dealer and was told they found no problems after performing some tests and driving it and was told that my experience was normal vehicle operation. I was pretty furious at the service manager after being told that. After 5500 miles, I think I understand the way this vehicle behaves pretty well.

First experience: drove about 10 miles at around 55 mph and when slowing down for the first stop light, I noticed a distinct difference of a lack of that feeling of “free wheeling”, it felt more like driving my son’s Mazda Speed 3 with six speed manual transmission, without all its power of course. It felt like I as experiencing engine braking and the engine continued to operate down to a complete stop. I looked down at the dash and noticed that the EV indicator on the power portion of the dash was not lit. The regenerative braking indicator on the power gauge did not pop up. After startup on green light, the car would not move until the engine came on after shutting off when the vehicle was stopped. There was no EV light indication and there was a distinct difference in way the vehicle accelerated. Over the next two or three miles of stop and go operation at less than 45 mph, the EV system would not come on, regardless of what I tried to do, like letting off the accelerator, stopping and restarting, etc. I finally arrived at my destination and before parking and exiting the vehicle, I decided to see if I could back up so I put the transmission in reverse, backed up a few feet and immediately noticed the EV system indicators light up and I noticed the difference in drivability. I stopped, put the vehicle in drive and the EV system seemed to again function normally.

Second incident approximately a week later; I had stopped at a fast food place and took off after receiving my order. About a half mile down the road driving at about 35 mph, I noticed that feeling again that the vehicle was slowing down after I let up a little on the accelerator to attempt to drop into full EV mode. Again the dash indicators of the EV mode were all absent and the vehicle drove as one with a manual transmission, complete with engine braking. After about another mile of a couple stop/start combinations, I pulled over, shifted into reverse and again immediately noticed the EV system come to life. Dropping back into drive, the system again functioned normally. The next day, I took it to the dealer who found nothing wrong and essentially told me I did not know what I was talking about.

[akirby]

Twice in the last two weeks, my electric drive mode has failed to operate as usual. Anyone had the same experience and if so, has it been acknowledged by Ford and repaired? I took my vehicle in to the dealer and was told they found no problems after performing some tests and driving it and was told that my experience was normal vehicle operation. I was pretty furious at the service manager after being told that. After 5500 miles, I think I understand the way this vehicle behaves pretty well.

First experience: drove about 10 miles at around 55 mph and when slowing down for the first stop light, I noticed a distinct difference of a lack of that feeling of “free wheeling”, it felt more like driving my son’s Mazda Speed 3 with six speed manual transmission, without all its power of course. It felt like I as experiencing engine braking and the engine continued to operate down to a complete stop. I looked down at the dash and noticed that the EV indicator on the power portion of the dash was not lit. The regenerative braking indicator on the power gauge did not pop up. After startup on green light, the car would not move until the engine came on after shutting off when the vehicle was stopped. There was no EV light indication and there was a distinct difference in way the vehicle accelerated. Over the next two or three miles of stop and go operation at less than 45 mph, the EV system would not come on, regardless of what I tried to do, like letting off the accelerator, stopping and restarting, etc. I finally arrived at my destination and before parking and exiting the vehicle, I decided to see if I could back up so I put the transmission in reverse, backed up a few feet and immediately noticed the EV system indicators light up and I noticed the difference in drivability. I stopped, put the vehicle in drive and the EV system seemed to again function normally.

Second incident approximately a week later; I had stopped at a fast food place and took off after receiving my order. About a half mile down the road driving at about 35 mph, I noticed that feeling again that the vehicle was slowing down after I let up a little on the accelerator to attempt to drop into full EV mode. Again the dash indicators of the EV mode were all absent and the vehicle drove as one with a manual transmission, complete with engine braking. After about another mile of a couple stop/start combinations, I pulled over, shifted into reverse and again immediately noticed the EV system come to life. Dropping back into drive, the system again functioned normally. The next day, I took it to the dealer who found nothing wrong and essentially told me I did not know what I was talking about.

 

Next time take it to the dealer before you fix it (if possible). It's hard to diagnose a problem without trouble codes unless you can test it while it's actually happening.

[FusionHybrid]

From the owner's manual, page 7,

 

Unique Hybrid operating characteristics:

 

.......Your hybrid high voltage battery may periodically re-condition itself to

ensure maximum efficiency. You may notice slight changes in drivability

during this process, but it’s an important part of your hybrid’s high

voltage battery optimization features........

[rfruth]

what Bob described sounds like more than re-conditioning to me - I wonder if any codes were set (not just OBD-II codes)

[Oman]

I have seen it reported before. It is the conditioning phase. When the EV system shuts down for any non-expected reason you will get a blinking or solid engine light and there will be codes that the dealer can read. I think the conditioning is coded in the computer for reading at the data port but since it isn't an error the dealer will ignore it. The system is new to the dealers and they haven't gotten all the new habits down yet.

 

The transmission is electrically driven (the power conversion it self is done by a motor, not just controlled electrically). If MG1, MG2, or the converter fails the car will not go at all. If the battery fails I beleive it can run in a limited mode of operation but you will get an engine light.

 

Power conditioning mode is virtually identical to having a failed battery as it will refuse to use the battery until it reaches the end of the conditioning cycle. If I remember correctly it can condition on the HWY without even being noticed but if you are stop and go you will be able to tell.

 

That is likely why you don't see more reports about it.

 

Jon

 

 

what Bob described sounds like more than re-conditioning to me - I wonder if any codes were set (not just OBD-II codes)

[fffbobl]

I'm not sure I buy the battery conditioning mode as an explaination of what happened. Why after 5500 miles does this happen twice about a week apart? Why does this seem to be corrected by shifting the transmission? If it was some managed mode, it should not care if I shift the transmission from drive to revers and back again, the mode should just continue until complete. This is very different than having the engine run in the mornings to warm up or to recharge the battery. It sure seems to me that the whole electic drive system shut down and refuses to operate when this happens, almost like some switch or control refuses to let it operate, but when one changes the transmisssion from drive to reverse, it reactives the switch/control. Where can I find out more information on this battery conditioning mode and how the vehicle is to react.

The dealer service manger said they have two factory trained hybrid techs and at least one of them did the testing. Apparently no codes generated when this happened.

[Oman]

Reverse requires electric power from the battery (the transmission doesn't actually have a reverse, neutral, or low gear) therefore it cancels the conditioning mode (you wouldn't want to be stuck somewhere). The computer knows it needs to be completed and will do it again after some period of time. If you let it complete it won't bother you again, at least until next time it needs to do it.

 

The reason it is in the manual is because it IS noticeable when it happens. The car does not stop working it only feels differently for a while. If you look at how the manual is written it is not technical so they don't describe what will feel different - only not to worry if it happens once in a while.

 

The entire power train is driven (not just sensed) by a computer. If anything out of the ordinary happens it will show an engine trouble light and there will be a trouble code.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I buy the battery conditioning mode as an explaination of what happened. Why after 5500 miles does this happen twice about a week apart? Why does this seem to be corrected by shifting the transmission? If it was some managed mode, it should not care if I shift the transmission from drive to revers and back again, the mode should just continue until complete. This is very different than having the engine run in the mornings to warm up or to recharge the battery. It sure seems to me that the whole electic drive system shut down and refuses to operate when this happens, almost like some switch or control refuses to let it operate, but when one changes the transmisssion from drive to reverse, it reactives the switch/control. Where can I find out more information on this battery conditioning mode and how the vehicle is to react.

The dealer service manger said they have two factory trained hybrid techs and at least one of them did the testing. Apparently no codes generated when this happened.

[bdrool]

:reading:

[lolder]

Great explanation, Jon

[wnyvet]

Here's what's happened three times this past week, differing from the previous norm:

 

Starts in EV mode, roll down the hill, briefly tap the accelerator to merge into traffic, which starts the engine, and go the short distance (40 yards) to the red light. While stopped at the red light, the engine's been continuing to run, though, for up to several minutes, even though the battery was already half-charged. That's what differs from the past norm where the engine would always shut down at that red light.

 

Not sure if that qualifies as 'reconditioning", though? Maybe it's just got something to do with cooler temperatures?

[Oman]

I posted a link to a document Ford put out about the hybrids. It is not geared toward the end-user but one the the things it does mention is the conditions that will cause the ICE to run. If I remember they are motive power demand, HV pack charge, Vacuum demand, cabin heat demand, high A/C demand, Emissions temp demand, HV Pack conditioning.

 

As it has gotten colder out I have noticed that the ICE runs more even after then engine temp is up. My guess is that the emissions system cools off faster than the actual ICE.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

Here's what's happened three times this past week, differing from the previous norm:

 

Starts in EV mode, roll down the hill, briefly tap the accelerator to merge into traffic, which starts the engine, and go the short distance (40 yards) to the red light. While stopped at the red light, the engine's been continuing to run, though, for up to several minutes, even though the battery was already half-charged. That's what differs from the past norm where the engine would always shut down at that red light.

 

Not sure if that qualifies as 'reconditioning", though? Maybe it's just got something to do with cooler temperatures?

[fffbobl]

Thanks for the responses! I believe Jon mentioned that there might have been a light on the dash that blinks or is on solid. I don't recall either time that any lights blinked or additional lights came on. The first event was at night and went on for about 3 miles of stop and go driving. I believe I would have noticed some light come on. What other confirmation of the event is available? Where can I go to find out more information about that mode such as more detail of what happens, how often, how long it takes once initiated, what the vehicle should or should not do, etc??? I

[Oman]

The check engine light will come on (and I think you get one "ding") when there is a minor issue that should be checked. The light blinks (and I think you get multiple dings) when something needs to be taken care of now or if the situation could be hazardous.

 

Jon

 

 

Thanks for the responses! I believe Jon mentioned that there might have been a light on the dash that blinks or is on solid. I don't recall either time that any lights blinked or additional lights came on. The first event was at night and went on for about 3 miles of stop and go driving. I believe I would have noticed some light come on. What other confirmation of the event is available? Where can I go to find out more information about that mode such as more detail of what happens, how often, how long it takes once initiated, what the vehicle should or should not do, etc??? I

[akirby]

The normal yellow check engine light turns on for an emission problem when it's safe to keep driving and blinks when there is a problem that needs immediate attention like a misfire that can damage the catalytic converters. Not sure if the FFH lights work the same way but it should be explained in the owner's manual.

[Oman]

This is about all I could find in the service manual about the conditioning:

 

"R-Mode Rebalance

 

Individual cells can deviate over the life of the HVTB. The purpose of the R-Mode Rebalance is to equalize the individual cell charges. By rebalancing the cells the HVTB will maintain top efficiency. The rebalance process charges the battery pack to near a full state of charge and keeps each individual cell charge within a prescribed range of each other. The R-Mode Rebalance is sometimes run during vehicle operation as needed and is controlled by the BECM. In some situations the BECM may not be able to properly adjust the cell levels on its own and a DTC may be set. The DTC would direct the technician to perform a service R-Mode Rebalance. This is done with the use of a scan tool by following the directions within the service function."

 

 

Is it any wonder that the service people don't actually know what to expect when it happens? I would think that to avoid all kinds of unneeded warranty labor they would describe what the customer would experience in a bit more detail. Setting a DTC means that if you don't let it do it's thing you will get a check engine light and you will need to bring it in.

 

 

I have to rebalance my R/C packs on occasion. It takes time if you only have a single input to a series of cells. The controller just keeps adjusting the topoff charge until it detects all the cells have the proper charge.

 

 

Jon

[billwat]

Thanks for the responses! I believe Jon mentioned that there might have been a light on the dash that blinks or is on solid. I don't recall either time that any lights blinked or additional lights came on. The first event was at night and went on for about 3 miles of stop and go driving. I believe I would have noticed some light come on. What other confirmation of the event is available? Where can I go to find out more information about that mode such as more detail of what happens, how often, how long it takes once initiated, what the vehicle should or should not do, etc??? I

 

 

A completely different and non-technical explaination: Could it be possible that you had accidentally shifted the transmission into L rather than D?

 

Just last night I experienced something very similar to your initial description. I was leaving a restuarant, had accelerated onto the road (up to about 50-55 MPH) and was coasting down to my turn. As the car slowed I had a distinct feeling of engine braking (both feel and sound of engine at high RPM's) and noticed as I dropped below 40 MPH that the EV mode had not engaged (battery was well over 50% also).. At nearly the same time I noticed that the transmission was in the L position. Shifting into D, the engine immediately droped to idle and the green bar came up on the power gauge.

 

This would explain why you didn't have any indicator lights and were able to immediately rectify the problem. I have noticed that it is somewhat easy to miss D and go to L, especially if shifting from R when backing out of parking spaces etc. Have done this a couple of times, but last night was the first time I got on the road and up to speed having done it.

 

Anyway, just a thought from my own (non-techincal) experience

 

Bill

[Oman]

Sometimes the obvious is overlooked. I do notice that there is a lockout on the D-L part of the shift which means that I don't get down there unless I want to.

 

Jon

 

 

A completely different and non-technical explaination: Could it be possible that you had accidentally shifted the transmission into L rather than D?

 

Just last night I experienced something very similar to your initial description. I was leaving a restuarant, had accelerated onto the road (up to about 50-55 MPH) and was coasting down to my turn. As the car slowed I had a distinct feeling of engine braking (both feel and sound of engine at high RPM's) and noticed as I dropped below 40 MPH that the EV mode had not engaged (battery was well over 50% also).. At nearly the same time I noticed that the transmission was in the L position. Shifting into D, the engine immediately droped to idle and the green bar came up on the power gauge.

 

This would explain why you didn't have any indicator lights and were able to immediately rectify the problem. I have noticed that it is somewhat easy to miss D and go to L, especially if shifting from R when backing out of parking spaces etc. Have done this a couple of times, but last night was the first time I got on the road and up to speed having done it.

 

Anyway, just a thought from my own (non-techincal) experience

 

Bill

[wnyvet]

From the owner's manual, page 7,

 

Unique Hybrid operating characteristics:

 

.......Your hybrid high voltage battery may periodically re-condition itself to

ensure maximum efficiency. You may notice slight changes in drivability

during this process, but it’s an important part of your hybrid’s high

voltage battery optimization features........

 

Ever since my reconditioning occured, the degree of battery recharging has definitely increased. Before, it always seemed to charge-up and stay at 1/2 state of charge, seldom only reaching 3/4. Now, according to the green graph, the battery charges all of the way to the top, and it seems to do so with a mind all of it's own, without any help from the driver.

[lolder]

Ever since my reconditioning occured, the degree of battery recharging has definitely increased. Before, it always seemed to charge-up and stay at 1/2 state of charge, seldom only reaching 3/4. Now, according to the green graph, the battery charges all of the way to the top, and it seems to do so with a mind all of it's own, without any help from the driver.

 

I have noticed an increase in battery charge level also. I am not sure if I have had a reconditioning event with 5000 miles on the OD. The weather even here in Florida has cooled down and the air conditioning has been off occasionally. The range on EV has sometimes almost doubled to over a mile. It's clear vehicles will never get much over 50 mpg. until a more energy efficient air conditioning method is invented. Sure, you can hypermile with it off at 40 mph. but that's not a viable mode for the masses. EV mode in cooler weather is much less predictable so far.

Lee

[Zacher]

My quick two cents.... What was the temperature outside, and what did you have the temperature set for in the car? I've noticed the exact same behaviour when it's cold out as the ICE needs to be at an optimum temperature (just above the first line in temp gauge) to work at it's most efficient state. When I say cold out, it's been -10 to +12 C lately, not very warm. Will be interesting to see how car reacts in -40C weather. You can also see when your ICE is at it's optimum temp by using the Empower mode on the cluster, it will turn the Water icon on your Temp Gauge Green when the engine is at it's optimum temperature. Anything below that it iwill be white, and will run the ICE more until it's warmed up.

 

I've noticed as well that during braking, I have no regenerative, but the batts are nearly 100% charged (becuase I had to warm the car up) and doesn't require regen braking (in manual it describes how the computer will use less regenerative breaking and more pad braking depending on battery charge state).

 

Hope this helps

[lolder]

My quick two cents.... What was the temperature outside, and what did you have the temperature set for in the car? I've noticed the exact same behaviour when it's cold out as the ICE needs to be at an optimum temperature (just above the first line in temp gauge) to work at it's most efficient state. When I say cold out, it's been -10 to +12 C lately, not very warm. Will be interesting to see how car reacts in -40C weather. You can also see when your ICE is at it's optimum temp by using the Empower mode on the cluster, it will turn the Water icon on your Temp Gauge Green when the engine is at it's optimum temperature. Anything below that it iwill be white, and will run the ICE more until it's warmed up.

 

I've noticed as well that during braking, I have no regenerative, but the batts are nearly 100% charged (becuase I had to warm the car up) and doesn't require regen braking (in manual it describes how the computer will use less regenerative breaking and more pad braking depending on battery charge state).

 

Hope this helps

Cold temperatures in Florida are 65 F. Auto Climate Control set to 72 F. or ACC is off. Why are you warming the car up? It is not required or needed. If you step on the accelerator pedal in P, the ICE will start and you can charge the HV battery almost to full by keeping the pedal partially depressed. This is undesirable as it can then not accept regenerative braking. The car is designed to turn the key and drive, even in Canada.

Lee

[Oman]

Unless you are trying to get a cozy warm cabin there is absolutely no reason to pre-warm the engine. The only reason to intentionally charge the battery is for long-term storage. The ICE is pretty inefficient as a generator. The car knows what the temperature needs to be to run in EV mode and it is more than just the water temp. In very cold weather the water temp may be warm but there are sensors on some of the emission components that will cause the ICE to come on to keep them warm as well. The car knows best :>

 

Jon

 

 

Cold temperatures in Florida are 65 F. Auto Climate Control set to 72 F. or ACC is off. Why are you warming the car up? It is not required or needed. If you step on the accelerator pedal in P, the ICE will start and you can charge the HV battery almost to full by keeping the pedal partially depressed. This is undesirable as it can then not accept regenerative braking. The car is designed to turn the key and drive, even in Canada.

Lee

[Zacher]

Cold temperatures in Florida are 65 F. Auto Climate Control set to 72 F. or ACC is off. Why are you warming the car up? It is not required or needed. If you step on the accelerator pedal in P, the ICE will start and you can charge the HV battery almost to full by keeping the pedal partially depressed. This is undesirable as it can then not accept regenerative braking. The car is designed to turn the key and drive, even in Canada.

Lee

 

Hey Lee,

 

I've always been accustomed to warming up a vehicle before taking off, especially when temps hit 0 C (32F) and below. Never a good idea to run an engine (ICE) with cold stiff oil. Warming it up allows the flow of oil to go throughout the engine before increasing demand. However, w/ the technology in these cars, perhaps it's not required.

[lolder]

Hey Lee,

 

I've always been accustomed to warming up a vehicle before taking off, especially when temps hit 0 C (32F) and below. Never a good idea to run an engine (ICE) with cold stiff oil. Warming it up allows the flow of oil to go throughout the engine before increasing demand. However, w/ the technology in these cars, perhaps it's not required.

 

I know that it was recommended that a short warm up be done years ago. That is no longer true. Even if you live a few blocks from an expressway, modern oils and engines are ready for it by the time you get there. Would I start a car at 0 degrees or below and floor it? No. Drive the car normally. If the valves are making a noise as lifters pump up (does the FFH even have hydraulic lifters?) or there is some other unusual noise, that may call for maintenance attention.

 

Lee

[DaveM]

I know that it was recommended that a short warm up be done years ago. That is no longer true. Even if you live a few blocks from an expressway, modern oils and engines are ready for it by the time you get there. Would I start a car at 0 degrees or below and floor it? No. Drive the car normally. If the valves are making a noise as lifters pump up (does the FFH even have hydraulic lifters?) or there is some other unusual noise, that may call for maintenance attention.

 

Lee

and if you have a Hybrid you haven't much choice in warming up the car. I turn mine on it the morning and it is in electric mode until I get out of my garage which is under my bedrooms and well insulated. It starts about the time I stop and shift into drive.