Maint rumors? Color laments and tax questions.

[BearCat]

I have been researching moving to a hybrid. I am a black and white guy and an avid DIY'er. I own a 91 Toy MR2 with a motor swap and a Toy Rav4. I am looking to replace my Nissan Maxima (01 5 spd). While I love my "row on your own", concessions need to be made for the next car. I keep my cars a long time and do all the maint myself.

 

Knowing that the "low" (pains me to say that the oil companies have us trained) cost of fuel right now is limited time offer, I have created spreadsheets to really understand the cost of hybrid ownership. Where I am having issues filling the gap in on is Hybrid maint. I have read "rumors" (unsubstantiated verbage) stating that even the "lights" on the Ford Hybrid have chips to communicate voltage draw to the main CPU. Normal parts only being available from the dealer (spark plugs, filters so on and so forth). Granted, these are not "fact" sites, but its pays to do ones homework.

 

I dont understand this. Voltage use/draw can be monitored via wiring and not an "on board" chip on the light assembly. I need to make sure that the "non-hybrid" parts are go to the local auto shop and get type stuff.

 

Also, why cant the Hybrid get some more "fun" colors? I love the red and yet, not an option. :finger:

 

One last question: The tax incentives end this year, correct? They dont "reset" for next year, correct?

[Grey]

There are a lot of unique parts for the FFH that won't be available at the corner parts store, but they will all be able to get the primary maintenance parts. They may have to order them for you, but there will be enough units produced that the maintenance parts will be out within the first year or so.

 

If you order or purchase an FFH or MMilanH before September 30, you can quality for the $1,700 tax credit. If you order or purchase from October 1 until March 31, 2010, you can claim an $850 tax credit.

 

Everyone's analysis of cost benefit will differ somewhat. I look at the tax credit as a discount off the purchase price. I consider the 80,000 to 100,000 mile warranty on the powertrain components to be like a free extended service plan. I look at the relatively higher resale value for a Hybrid as a plus. Extended maintenance schedules (10,000 miles on oil changes) saves me a few bucks annually.

 

Rather than compare a Fusion Hybrid to a non-hybrid 4 Cylinder Fusion, I compare the fuel economy of the vehicle I traded in, which is less than half of what I'm getting now. Plus the Hybrid has the performance of a 6 cylinder Fusion (so the journalists need to compare there.)

 

Then there are the intrinsic benefits - help the economy, help the environment, be the envy of your techno-savvy friends, have bragging rights when you get over 50 MPG on a tank of fuel, etc. Hard to put a price on that, but it's there.

 

Good luck with your decision.

[svjim]

There are a lot of unique parts for the FFH that won't be available at the corner parts store, but they will all be able to get the primary maintenance parts. They may have to order them for you, but there will be enough units produced that the maintenance parts will be out within the first year or so.

 

If you order or purchase an FFH or MMilanH before September 30, you can quality for the $1,700 tax credit. If you order or purchase from October 1 until March 31, 2010, you can claim an $850 tax credit.

 

Everyone's analysis of cost benefit will differ somewhat. I look at the tax credit as a discount off the purchase price. I consider the 80,000 to 100,000 mile warranty on the powertrain components to be like a free extended service plan. I look at the relatively higher resale value for a Hybrid as a plus. Extended maintenance schedules (10,000 miles on oil changes) saves me a few bucks annually.

 

Rather than compare a Fusion Hybrid to a non-hybrid 4 Cylinder Fusion, I compare the fuel economy of the vehicle I traded in, which is less than half of what I'm getting now. Plus the Hybrid has the performance of a 6 cylinder Fusion (so the journalists need to compare there.)

 

Then there are the intrinsic benefits - help the economy, help the environment, be the envy of your techno-savvy friends, have bragging rights when you get over 50 MPG on a tank of fuel, etc. Hard to put a price on that, but it's there.

 

Good luck with your decision.

 

Just to add that in California where the car is considered a Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (PZEV) there is an added warranty of 150,000 or 15 years on the emissions and I believe that the car is exempt from smog checks. I think the battery is also warrantied for 10 years as it is considered part of the emissions system.

 

Jim

[fsb99]

Just to add that in California where the car is considered a Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (PZEV) there is an added warranty of 150,000 or 15 years on the emissions and I believe that the car is exempt from smog checks. I think the battery is also warrantied for 10 years as it is considered part of the emissions system.

 

Jim

 

I think the electric parts (motor etc) and battery in CA is warrantied 10/150k, while the usual powertrain is 5/60k and bumper-bumper is 3/36k. Didn't hear about the exemption for smog checks but I hope it's true - we'll find out from DMV I guess.

[Quincy]

The Fusion Hybrid should cost LESS to maintain than a regular Fusion.

 

Here's why:

 

- The Fusion Hybrid uses a Power Split Device transmission. It has just one planetary gearset with about 30 moving parts. No gear-shifting wear-and-tear. It has no clutch, no hot-running torque converter, no CVT belts. That is why it is lower-maintenance and more durable than regular-car multiple-gear transmissions with 100+ moving parts. It is the same kind of transmission used by Toyota hybrids like the Prius. How the PSD Transmission works: http://www.eahart.com/prius/psd

 

- A big side benefit of the PSD transmission is that the big 90hp MG2 electrical traction motor in the Fusion Hybrid can be used to electrically brake the car to slow it down. This electrical regenerative braking converts the car's forward momentum into storable electricity (which goes into the battery pack), and saves brake pad wear tremendously. The Fusion Hybrid won't need a brake pad change until after 100,000 miles. (Not a typo.). Try that in a regular Fusion and see what happens. B)

 

- The Fusion Hybrid also does not have a timing belt. It does not have an alternator. Nor does it have a starter motor or solenoid. Less things to wear out and need replacement. Regular cars have those.

 

- The Fusion Hybrid uses 87-octane regular gas. You don't use higher octanes because the Atkinson-cycle engine leaves their valves open longer, so you DO NOT want the delayed combustion characteristics of the higher-octane fuel. And 87-octane is cheaper.

 

The fuel economy is nice, but I think the best thing about the Power Split Device-equipped hybrid cars are their decreased maintenance requirements.

 

After driving a Power Split Device car, regular cars feel downright primitive. I am NEVER going back to a regular car. :)

[fsb99]

The Fusion Hybrid should cost LESS to maintain than a regular Fusion.

 

Here's why:

 

- The Fusion Hybrid uses a Power Split Device transmission. It has just one planetary gearset with about 30 moving parts. No gear-shifting wear-and-tear. It has no clutch, no hot-running torque converter, no CVT belts. That is why it is lower-maintenance and more durable than regular-car multiple-gear transmissions with 100+ moving parts. It is the same kind of transmission used by Toyota hybrids like the Prius. How the PSD Transmission works: http://www.eahart.com/prius/psd

 

- A big side benefit of the PSD transmission is that the big 90hp MG2 electrical traction motor in the Fusion Hybrid can be used to electrically brake the car to slow it down. This electrical regenerative braking converts the car's forward momentum into storable electricity (which goes into the battery pack), and saves brake pad wear tremendously. The Fusion Hybrid won't need a brake pad change until after 100,000 miles. (Not a typo.). Try that in a regular Fusion and see what happens. B)

 

- The Fusion Hybrid also does not have a timing belt. It does not have an alternator. Nor does it have a starter motor or solenoid. Less things to wear out and need replacement. Regular cars have those.

 

- The Fusion Hybrid uses 87-octane regular gas. You don't use higher octanes because the Atkinson-cycle engine leaves their valves open longer, so you DO NOT want the delayed combustion characteristics of the higher-octane fuel. And 87-octane is cheaper.

 

The fuel economy is nice, but I think the best thing about the Power Split Device-equipped hybrid cars are their decreased maintenance requirements.

 

After driving a Power Split Device car, regular cars feel downright primitive. I am NEVER going back to a regular car. :)

 

Quincy, quick question on mechanical wear and tear (since I'm more electrically oriented)...without an alternator how does the gas engine kick on? Also, since the gas engine goes on and off very frequently, does that have a negative effect on its lifespan vs regular car?

 

Also, I think most of us believe that in order to get something we need to give something...what you listed are really compelling points, but what are some cons besides added initial cost of vehicle and possible performance?

[Quincy]

Quincy, quick question on mechanical wear and tear (since I'm more electrically oriented)...without an alternator how does the gas engine kick on? Also, since the gas engine goes on and off very frequently, does that have a negative effect on its lifespan vs regular car?

 

Also, I think most of us believe that in order to get something we need to give something...what you listed are really compelling points, but what are some cons besides added initial cost of vehicle and possible performance?

 

The Power Split Device system has two electrical motors, MG1 and MG2. The MG1 is the smaller countertorque motor (about 20hp), and is used to crank the gasoline engine into motion, which is why the Power Split Device-equipped cars do not need a separate starter motor and solenoid like a regular car does (which is what cranks the engine in a regular car when you turn the key in the ignition).

 

MG2 is the 90hp main traction motor geared directly to the drivewheels, both to provide direct electrical motor torque to the wheels and to electrically brake the car by spinning it as an electrical generator.

 

The PSD does not need an alternator because both MG1 and MG2 can be run as electrical generators (MG2 by recovering kinetic energy into electricity through regenerative braking, MG1 as the countertorque motor spun by the gasoline engine when the gas engine is turning.) The hybrid system includes a solid-state inverter and the hybrid computer system to manage the electrical system and monitor the battery charge states.

 

As far as engine wear goes, the gas engine in a PSD car experiences LESS engine wear because 1) it's an Atkinson Cycle engine that always operates at lower RPMs compared to regular Otto-cycle engines, and 2) it's in operation only when it's needed, so it experiences less heat stress and less mechanical friction wear.

 

The cons of the PSD system are :

 

- the motors do weigh a lot-- 200 pounds of copper windings, magnets and armature. The battery pack is a bit heavy too, so the hybrids do pay a penalty in weight. On average, a PSD hybrid car will weigh around 200-300 pounds heavier than its conventional counterpart.

 

- In cars that are not designed from the ground up as hybrids such as the Fusion, the battery does take up trunk space. The cars designed from the ground up as hybrids like the Prius don't pay that penalty though.

 

- The computer-controlled traction system is not particularly good at managing high-slip conditions, which is why the PSD system is not good for off-road 4-wheel-drive vehicles. During excessive slip, the traction-control will override your throttle input to prevent an MG2 electrical overload (so as not to burn out the MG2 traction motor).

 

- You do have to take care not to drain the main traction battery. The hybrid system computer always tries to keep it in a charge state between 60-80%, where the battery will last almost indefinitely. It is not designed to be deep-discharged. If you do anything stupid like run out of gas so you are running on just electric alone, which drains the battery, it will decrease its lifespan (and that kind of damage is NOT covered by warranty.) This is easy to avoid of course--- Just don't ever run out of gas!

 

And no, battery life is NOT an issue, in contrast to all the crap you hear from hybrid-haters. Ford warranties that battery for up to 10 years / 150,000 miles if you are in one of the eight states with California-standard emissions laws. They'd be nuts to back it for that long if they don't have confidence in the pack. And plenty of Prius and Escape Hybrids used as taxi cabs in places like Vancouver and New York City have routinely exceeded 200,000 miles with ZERO battery issues.

 

Personally, I think for a passenger car (that is not used for off-roading), the PSD system's advantages far outweigh its more-than-manageable disadvantages.

 

Hope this helps.

[fsb99]

Thanks for your reply!...I checked DMV and I guess all hybrids are exempt from smog checks???

[BearCat]

Now THATS the kind of information I am looking for.

[svjim]

Thanks for your reply!...I checked DMV and I guess all hybrids are exempt from smog checks???

 

I think you will find that technically it is the PZEV (Partial Zero Emissions Vechiles) that qualify for not having to have smog checks and it just so happens that most hybrids meet that standard, but I am not at all sure that some of the 'light' hybrids do. You also get a 15 year warranty in California on the emissions system an something like 10 years on the electrical portion such as the electric motor and battery. To get the PZEV rating the manufactures had to provide those guarantees. BTW, there are several other Ford vehicles that are not hybrids that meet the standard.

[awilson]

Hello BearCat,

I purchased a FFH about 3 weeks ago and love it. I am a Mechanical Engineer by training and, like you, tend to do most of my own maintenance. Being an engineer, I am impressed by the simplistic effeciency of the eCVT drivetrain. When you compare it to the complexity of modern 5 - 6 - 7 speed transmissions, it's really a thing of beauty. I believe that the eCVT/PSD drivetrain has the inherent potential to be much more reliable than an automatic transmission. However automatic transmissions are a very mature technology that has had the advantage of time to work out all the bugs.

 

One of the concerns that you specifically stated was the rumor that you heard that the FFH used special parts. Specifically you mentioned lights. My understanding is that the majority of the chassis parts are the same as with a non-hybrid Fusion. The Hybrid has a 12V battery. Since this is not used to drive a starter, my opinion is that it is there so that standard chassis electrical components can be used (lights, blower motor, stereo, etc.).

 

Looking through the manual, the part number for components seem to be pretty standard

 

Headlamp high beam - H7LL

Headlamp Low beam - H11LL

Oil Filter - FL2017B

 

The manual does make the notation that the following bulbs should be replaced by the dealer: Headlamps, park/turn signal lamp, rear sidemarker lamp, high mount brake lamp. I don't think this is because these items use special bulbs, but it is due to the difficulty of access to these lamps.

 

The manual states that "the vehicle is equipped with a long life air filter. The filter is designed to last the life of the vehicle." Now I live in dusty West Texas and I have a hard time understanding how an air filter can operate effectively for more than 2 years, but my guess is that Ford had to come up with a new approach for the air filter due to space contraints in trying to fit the hybrid power train into a standard chassis. The air intake snakes under the battery, which is where the filter must be located.

 

The manual also states that the spark plugs should be changed by the dealer. I'm not sure why this requirement, as they look very accessible.

 

Finally, the standard warranty is for 8year/100K miles for Hybrid Unique Components. This helps cover some of the unknowns about new hybrid technology.

 

So in conclusion, I would agree with Quincy that the maintenance requirements for the first 100K miles should be less than what you would spend with a traditional Fusion. I am also a "buy and hold" car owner. My last car (1982 Mercedes 300TD) had 270K miles on it. I'm not sure anyone can predict the reliability of the FFH at 200K+ miles. However that is part of the risk of being an early adopter of a new technology.

 

That being said, I am so impressed with this car that I have no regrets about my purchase.

[Quincy]

If the performance of the Ford Fusion and Toyota Prius are of any indication, I think the odds are in our favor that they will last past 200,000 miles with very little problems. :)

 

In Vancouver, they have been using Toyota Priuses as taxi cabs for years. Those have regularly exceeded 200,000 miles with zero battery issues, and only those that have been badly abused (involved in accidents) have subsequent problems (not a surprise).

 

Where I am here in New York City, they have been using Ford Escape Hybrids as taxis since 2005 and many have also exceeded 200,000 miles no problems, and nobody abuses the cars like the notorious NYC cabbies. Since the Fusion Hybrid uses the same hybrid system as the Escape Hybrid, I think it gives us a pretty good indication how long the FFH will last.

 

I'm keeping a very close eye on how the rest of NYC's hybrid fleet will do-- We also got plenty of Camry Hybrids, Altima Hybrids, Highlander Hybrids and Priuses as taxi cabs here. I'll be watching with interest to see when the Ford Fusion Hybrid will start showing up on the streets of NYC as medallion cabs!

[kirkster57]

It says in a lot of on line documentation that the transmission type on the FFH is CVT. I haven't seen PSD mentioned anywhere. Any reason for that?

 

Kirk

 

The Fusion Hybrid should cost LESS to maintain than a regular Fusion.

 

Here's why:

 

- The Fusion Hybrid uses a Power Split Device transmission. It has just one planetary gearset with about 30 moving parts. No gear-shifting wear-and-tear. It has no clutch, no hot-running torque converter, no CVT belts. That is why it is lower-maintenance and more durable than regular-car multiple-gear transmissions with 100+ moving parts. It is the same kind of transmission used by Toyota hybrids like the Prius. How the PSD Transmission works: http://www.eahart.com/prius/psd

 

- A big side benefit of the PSD transmission is that the big 90hp MG2 electrical traction motor in the Fusion Hybrid can be used to electrically brake the car to slow it down. This electrical regenerative braking converts the car's forward momentum into storable electricity (which goes into the battery pack), and saves brake pad wear tremendously. The Fusion Hybrid won't need a brake pad change until after 100,000 miles. (Not a typo.). Try that in a regular Fusion and see what happens. B)

 

- The Fusion Hybrid also does not have a timing belt. It does not have an alternator. Nor does it have a starter motor or solenoid. Less things to wear out and need replacement. Regular cars have those.

 

- The Fusion Hybrid uses 87-octane regular gas. You don't use higher octanes because the Atkinson-cycle engine leaves their valves open longer, so you DO NOT want the delayed combustion characteristics of the higher-octane fuel. And 87-octane is cheaper.

 

The fuel economy is nice, but I think the best thing about the Power Split Device-equipped hybrid cars are their decreased maintenance requirements.

 

After driving a Power Split Device car, regular cars feel downright primitive. I am NEVER going back to a regular car. :)

[WPWoodJr]

The Fusion Hybrid should cost LESS to maintain than a regular Fusion.

...

- The Fusion Hybrid uses 87-octane regular gas. You don't use higher octanes because the Atkinson-cycle engine leaves their valves open longer, so you DO NOT want the delayed combustion characteristics of the higher-octane fuel. And 87-octane is cheaper.

Quincy, can the FFH use E85?

[fsb99]

Quincy, can the FFH use E85?

 

No :)

[Quincy]

It says in a lot of on line documentation that the transmission type on the FFH is CVT. I haven't seen PSD mentioned anywhere. Any reason for that?

 

Kirk

 

The specs listed by the Ford Dealers all say the Ford Fusion Hybrid's transmission is the Aisin PowerSplit eCVT automatic transmission. The name should be pretty descriptive of what kind of transmission that is. :)

 

The Power Split Device in the Ford Escape Hybrid and Fusion Hybrid are both manufactured by Aisin Seiki in Japan. I don't have the particular Aisin model number for the Fusion Hybrid's Power Split Device yet, but the ones used in the Escape Hybrid are the Aisin T-030 and T-031. Aisin does have a Power Split Device transmission listed in their current catalog with an "HD-10" model number, with a 65kw (which is 86hp) MG2 electric motor. Sounds awfully like the specs for the FFH MG2.

 

Check out the attachment. That is the Ford Power Split Device.

 

 

And check out the Prius Power Split Device: http://www.eahart.com/prius/psd

 

They are the same kind of animal. B)

[Oman]

The Fusion uses the Aisin HD-20. It was designed specifically for Ford. Aisin does not make it available to anyone else. It is based on the HD-10 design with some improvements in the gearing and motors from what I read.

 

Also, E85 is a major no-go in the FFH. The Atkinson cycle engine is very tightly controlled for the specific combustion properties of regular gas. Even putting premium in it will cause problems (loss of power from what I understand as well as stress on the engine). E85 engines have to have special highly acid resistant fuel components and a sensor system that pretty dramatically changes the ignition and fuel timing when E85 is detected.

 

 

 

Jon

 

 

The specs listed by the Ford Dealers all say the Ford Fusion Hybrid's transmission is the Aisin PowerSplit eCVT automatic transmission. The name should be pretty descriptive of what kind of transmission that is. :)

 

The Power Split Device in the Ford Escape Hybrid and Fusion Hybrid are both manufactured by Aisin Seiki in Japan. I don't have the particular Aisin model number for the Fusion Hybrid's Power Split Device yet, but the ones used in the Escape Hybrid are the Aisin T-030 and T-031. Aisin does have a Power Split Device transmission listed in their current catalog with an "HD-10" model number, with a 65kw (which is 86hp) MG2 electric motor. Sounds awfully like the specs for the FFH MG2.

 

Check out the attachment. That is the Ford Power Split Device.

 

 

And check out the Prius Power Split Device: http://www.eahart.com/prius/psd

 

They are the same kind of animal. B)

[lrymal]

...Finally, the standard warranty is for 8year/100K miles for Hybrid Unique Components. This helps cover some of the unknowns about new hybrid technology....

Howdy... apologies for the hi-jack.... New here.

 

Where is this in the warranty booklet? I tried to find this info and it seems to spend so much time on the California exceptions that I just couldn't find the warranty for the battery pack, etc. I'm in Texas.

[Grey]

Howdy... apologies for the hi-jack.... New here.

 

Where is this in the warranty booklet?

 

I found it online here:

 

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...1/10hybwa1e.pdf

[lrymal]

I found it online here:

 

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...1/10hybwa1e.pdf

Well, didn't work. Said I didn't have permission to go there. So, I tried finding it myself by going to http://www.motorcraftservice.com but I need to subscribe. That's OK. Surely this is in my warranty book, but I just can't find it, probably right in front of me.

 

EDIT: HA! Take that! I registered and now have the document:

 

(4) Your vehicle’s unique components are covered during the Hybrid

Vehicle Unique Component Coverage, which lasts for eight years or 100,000

miles, whichever occurs first. The following parts are covered during this

extended coverage period: high-voltage battery, continuously variable

transmission and the DC/DC converter. In addition, the high-voltage battery

connector, fan assembly, thermister probe, hybrid battery pack sensor

module (HBPSM), and the battery energy control module (BECM) are

covered for the Fusion Hybrid and the Milan Hybrid only.

[Grey]

Now that you have registered with Motorcraft, you are officially in the Ford Family.

 

No more GM.

 

No more Delco.

 

Enjoy your new life.

[lrymal]

Now that you have registered with Motorcraft, you are officially in the Ford Family.

 

No more GM.

 

No more Delco.

 

Enjoy your new life.

It is cool. I am adjusting... I think I'm still reeling over the Powered by MICROSOFT emblem on the console (for the Sync). Now THAT will definitely take some time.

[fsb99]

Now that you have registered with Motorcraft, you are officially in the Ford Family.

 

No more GM.

 

No more Delco.

 

Enjoy your new life.

 

GM as in Government Motors? :)

[lrymal]

GM as in Government Motors? :)

No doubt!!!!!!!!!!!

[awilson]

(4) Your vehicle’s unique components are covered during the Hybrid

Vehicle Unique Component Coverage, which lasts for eight years or 100,000

miles, whichever occurs first. The following parts are covered during this

extended coverage period: high-voltage battery, continuously variable

transmission and the DC/DC converter. In addition, the high-voltage battery

connector, fan assembly, thermister probe, hybrid battery pack sensor

module (HBPSM), and the battery energy control module (BECM) are

covered for the Fusion Hybrid and the Milan Hybrid only.

 

This exact same text can be found on pages 9/10 of the Warranty Guide.